Convicted rapist wins his case to be moved into a womens prison.

[Aries_Split]

I'd rather use my tax money to take a rapists penis away then to spend it on bailing out insurance companies and banks or fighting oil wars based on conversations with god.

Just my opinion.

 

[Dr Ampersand]

I really don't understand why people should pay for his operation. Besides, getting an operation won't make him more accepted by the prisoners, male or female. If he's going to be put into isolation then I don't see why he should be given a sex change anyway.

 

[Epitome]

In that logic, then Gays should not be allowed to marry. Because well...if we let men marry men, they may want to marry their dogs next. Now unless you agree with that too, then your thinking is flawed. (ok, either way I would feel there is flawed thinking involved..but I think you know what I mean)

I will go on however. What about infertile women? They could try that too, and they should not be allowed maternity leave, but are still women. However if they find a way to allow trans women (and likely infertile women too obviously) to becoem pregnant, THEN they SHOULD get maternity leave in that case.

You would class infertile and trans women in the same category with regards to childbirth? If the day ever comes when we can completely change a mans body into a womans, womb, hormones and all then i may lessen my stance on the issue. But first it think that research has some pretty strong ethical considerations that start bordering playing God.

For now though the change is superficial. Infertile women are infertile to a natural physiological problem or unfortuate accident. When born they should not be able to bear children, when tran's women are born they should not. Childbirth most definately falls under the Sex issue as reproduction is an entirely physical event. Your sex at birth should decide child bearing capabilitys not your believed gender. to permit trans's to give birth by implanting a womb is alot differant than repairing an infertile womans womb.

lol yes i think i get what you are trying to say about the gay communitys rights but inter-speciesism i think we can both draw a line at I wasnt trying to make a slippery slope arguement however, im saying that we must define a limit to where trans wishes they were a differant sex impinge upon teh rest of society. Taking the gay community as example i have no problem with them marrying or civil partnershiping (well there are some minor issues i have but suffice to say i dont oppose it) but when there is talk of say gay couples adopting children then i have to start questioning aspects of it. The gay community can be as gay as it likes an i will respect that so long as they dont demand to start impinging on my social groups BECAUSE they are gay. I use emphasis there to denote that being gay does not entitle you to force others to change or even accept you.

Gays and trans want to be accepted. You accept gays for the most part, but not trans based on your thinking. People oppose gay couples adopting...under the foolish pretense that it will ruin their lives (since being na orphan TOTALLY doesnt ruin lives...) but then that means ANY flawed couples should not be allowed to adopt. Only 'perfect couples' would eb allowed and those dont truly exist.

I...cant hate you. You are a nice, and respectable guy...but I certainly hate alot of your views, and I do mean hate. My problem ultimatly, is trans men and women want to feel right, and part of that is being viewed by others as what they feel is them. You are one who denies them that, which is why I despise that view of yours so.

Gone from ignorent fucker to nice repectable guy, not bad

Your still mistaking my position though. I am willing to accept trans no problem, if you want to attach a penis ill call you sir and piss next to you in the urinals (no peeking thought thats still wierd). Its the willingness to ACCOMODATE the (in my mind) unreasonable requests of trans. Take this guy the discussion started about. He is abusing the rights and wishes of trans in order to secure a transfer of prison, but he is still a murderer and an attempted rapist. People are bending over backwards to accomdate this excuse of a human at a great cost to the taxpayer. That 100k should have gone to a hospital. You cannot let gender philosophy overshadow everything else about a person.

The gay adoption thing is a fundamentaly flawed arguement, many crappy parents are allowed adopt, and foster care can be traumatic for a child it does seem unfair that a perfectly good home would go to waste because of intolerance. But they should not be allowed children because they are gay, i know of a few gays who support adoption but would be awful awful parents. Deny them and you can bet they will blame the being gay discrimination on it.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

You beat me to it - I read this yesterday before forgot to make the post.

It's pathetic, he's still a man - just because you want to dress up as a woman and pretend you're one doesn't make you one - even if you get tit implants and have your dick chopped offs.

Better question - why do ignorant bastards like you get human rights. Bloody hell, you just went and stigmatised a swathe of some of the most unfortunate people in the world, people who are quite literally, born in the wrong body, because....? Because you're pissant morality is a bit offended. I mean, good god in heaven...

She's a rapist and a killer. In my opinion, she should have been put down there and then, but since we aren't going to do that, we should at least acknowledge she is still human, and deserving of, if not compassion, then at least basic humanity. Transsexuals, being, in essence, a woman, in a man's body, or else a man in a woman's body, do not tend to survive prison. Usually, they're raped until they take their own lives, and believe me, nobody deserves that. Fuck, not even Ian Huntley deserves that.

You, sir, are the kind of ignorant peasant who has no place in this forum

 

[Robert632]

well... there is no way this can go wrong. an convicted rapist in a woman's prison. he won't rape one of them, or be killed by an extremist feminist who hates rapists.

 

[A Weary Exile]

This is the kind of stupid crap our taxes pay for? He's a rapist! Who cares if he's 'comfortable' in his male prison? He can go rot for all I care. Our justice system has to stop worrying about being PC and start punishing those who deserve it properly.

 

[Christemo]

*head-desks with the judge´s head untill it explodes.*

thats just like the zsasz interviews in Arkham Asylum. FUCKED UP.

 

[Christemo]

I would prescribe him a .20 cal to the forehead.

Apply directly three times per day for maximum results.

is 3 not a bit of an underdosis. id reccomend 200mm cannons fired in his vicinity during lunch.

 

[internutt]

You know, perhaps I'm a little old fashioned with this viewpoint. When treating an alcoholic, they don't cure him by giving him alcohol. You don't cure a drug abuser by giving them the drug they want. Thus why should we chop off a guys dong just because he wants to be a woman? Surely the easier option is to not give them what they THINK they want and just give them therapy like everyone else.

 

[jboking]

leave him in male prison so he'll know what he did to the person he raped.

This is quite simply the best solution. Screw the idiot judge.

 

[Altorin]

honestly, sending a sex-changed rapist to a men's prison is probably the closest thing to "eye for an eye" justice you could imagine.

At the same time, I don't know if they could possibly release a vagina (man-made or not) into a male prison.. It would be writing a cheque many in-mates would be all too eager to sign.

They'd have to keep him segregated from the male prisoners for his own protection, just like they'd have to keep him segregated from the female prisoners for their protection. So if they can't stop him from undergoing the procedure, the end result is the same.. I guess the guy just really hates people and wants to spend the next 20 years all by himself in a cell.

 

[Deleted]

Why do people want to change genders anyways? "I was born a boy in a girls body and I only found out after the technology was available" sounds like a poor excuse. I imagine I was born as a Viking so if you'd let me pillage your house otherwise you're stepping on my soul and you can't have that in America.

 

[Epitome]

You beat me to it - I read this yesterday before forgot to make the post.

It's pathetic, he's still a man - just because you want to dress up as a woman and pretend you're one doesn't make you one - even if you get tit implants and have your dick chopped offs.

Better question - why do ignorant bastards like you get human rights. Bloody hell, you just went and stigmatised a swathe of some of the most unfortunate people in the world, people who are quite literally, born in the wrong body, because....? Because you're pissant morality is a bit offended. I mean, good god in heaven...

She's a rapist and a killer. In my opinion, she should have been put down there and then, but since we aren't going to do that, we should at least acknowledge she is still human, and deserving of, if not compassion, then at least basic humanity. Transsexuals, being, in essence, a woman, in a man's body, or else a man in a woman's body, do not tend to survive prison. Usually, they're raped until they take their own lives, and believe me, nobody deserves that. Fuck, not even Ian Huntley deserves that.

You, sir, are the kind of ignorant peasant who has no place in this forum

Agreed if your not going to at least attempt to contribute to teh debate then please dont even talk. One line i disagree with it because I should responses are of little benefit to anybody.

I would however disagree with you rolling thunder on your arguement, read back over this thread you will see me kiutu and theultimateend have been debating the topic if you would care to join in reasoned debate.

I think there is a probem with your definitions of transexuals though. They are not men born in womens bodies or vica-versa. They are men and women who believe [i/] that they were born into the wrong bodies and here is th crux of the issues. Lycanthropes are people who believe they are werewolves should we start accomdating them next? IM not saying we should im pointing out the fact that this is a subjective percieved matter.
If it were as clear cut as people being put in the wrong bodies then there would be far less opposition to it. The problem with the case at hand is that while as society we have become more tolerant there has to to be a line where we stop accomodating this kind of thing. Somebodies choice of religion, etc should not affect our view of them but if say their religeon called for them to view women as inferior we wold quickly reject their right to believe what they want in an attempt to correct them.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

Why do people want to change genders anyways? "I was born a boy in a girls body and I only found out after the technology was available" sounds like a poor excuse. I imagine I was born as a Viking so if you'd let me pillage your house otherwise you're stepping on my soul and you can't have that in America.

Because, buffoon, they believe, wholeheartedly, and utterly, that they are of the wrong gender. And interestingly, it has been proven that in the vast majority of them, the brain functions are exactly the same as a person of the same age of the opposite sex to which they are. In essence, mentally, they are trapped in the wrong body.

Try and imagine that for a moment. Imagine you're a man, a virile, masculine, strong man...and you're stuck in the body of a 5' 4" woman? Imagine exactly how shit each day would be. Imagine, alternatively, being a woman...who everyone sees as a man. A woman virtually no-one would love, would even look at in lust. Imagine...exactly how fucked up, shitty and awful each day must be, you inhuman little berk!

You beat me to it - I read this yesterday before forgot to make the post.

It's pathetic, he's still a man - just because you want to dress up as a woman and pretend you're one doesn't make you one - even if you get tit implants and have your dick chopped offs.

Better question - why do ignorant bastards like you get human rights. Bloody hell, you just went and stigmatised a swathe of some of the most unfortunate people in the world, people who are quite literally, born in the wrong body, because....? Because you're pissant morality is a bit offended. I mean, good god in heaven...

She's a rapist and a killer. In my opinion, she should have been put down there and then, but since we aren't going to do that, we should at least acknowledge she is still human, and deserving of, if not compassion, then at least basic humanity. Transsexuals, being, in essence, a woman, in a man's body, or else a man in a woman's body, do not tend to survive prison. Usually, they're raped until they take their own lives, and believe me, nobody deserves that. Fuck, not even Ian Huntley deserves that.

You, sir, are the kind of ignorant peasant who has no place in this forum

Agreed if your not going to at least attempt to contribute to teh debate then please dont even talk. One line i disagree with it because I should responses are of little benefit to anybody.

I would however disagree with you rolling thunder on your arguement, read back over this thread you will see me kiutu and theultimateend have been debating the topic if you would care to join in reasoned debate.

I think there is a probem with your definitions of transexuals though. They are not men born in womens bodies or vica-versa. They are men and women who believe [i/] that they were born into the wrong bodies and here is th crux of the issues. Lycanthropes are people who believe they are werewolves should we start accomdating them next? IM not saying we should im pointing out the fact that this is a subjective percieved matter.
If it were as clear cut as people being put in the wrong bodies then there would be far less opposition to it. The problem with the case at hand is that while as society we have become more tolerant there has to to be a line where we stop accomodating this kind of thing. Somebodies choice of religion, etc should not affect our view of them but if say their religeon called for them to view women as inferior we wold quickly reject their right to believe what they want in an attempt to correct them.

Read my post above. This is not a case of a psychosis or a delusion. If you'd actually met, and talked with a transsexual, you would probably realise this. Hell, if you'd even done your research, you'd know that, as I said before, their brain chemistry is almost exactly the same as a person of the opposite sex. How this comes about, no-one knows, but a degree of compassion is called for.

And your analogy to religion is a fallacious one. You are comparing a situation where one scenario is advocating something derogatory or hurtful to another part of society (misogeny). Transsexualism, on the other hand, is of no harm to anyone, and thus, I must advise you to find a better analogy.

 

[Epitome]

Read my post above. This is not a case of a psychosis or a delusion. If you'd actually met, and talked with a transsexual, you would probably realise this. Hell, if you'd even done your research, you'd know that, as I said before, their brain chemistry is almost exactly the same as a person of the opposite sex. How this comes about, no-one knows, but a degree of compassion is called for.

And your analogy to religion is a fallacious one. You are comparing a situation where one scenario is advocating something derogatory or hurtful to another part of society (misogeny). Transsexualism, on the other hand, is of no harm to anyone, and thus, I must advise you to find a better analogy.

You missed the point of the analogy it was not that transexualism could case harm, though i can think of at least a few incidences where it could. I agree these people believe completely that they are trapped in the wrong body, but my point was that believing something does not make it true.

I reference lycanthropes becasuse imagine if you 100% fully believe that you are a werewolf, it doesnt hurt anybody to allow these people to continue their beliefs but we wouldnt start to accomodate them by say, spending 80k of taxpayer money to keep them isolated from general population in prison while they recieve treatment

I point out tht lycanthropy and Gender Identity Disorder are both classed as ailments by the American board of Psych, but then so was being gay up until a point. Now GID isnt your average transgender but one who suffers from dyspohria at the same time causing them distress. Point is in some areas it is still classified as an illness, (this by the way is extremely controversial among the psychiatrists) and can be considered treatable

 

[Rolling Thunder]

Read my post above. This is not a case of a psychosis or a delusion. If you'd actually met, and talked with a transsexual, you would probably realise this. Hell, if you'd even done your research, you'd know that, as I said before, their brain chemistry is almost exactly the same as a person of the opposite sex. How this comes about, no-one knows, but a degree of compassion is called for.

And your analogy to religion is a fallacious one. You are comparing a situation where one scenario is advocating something derogatory or hurtful to another part of society (misogeny). Transsexualism, on the other hand, is of no harm to anyone, and thus, I must advise you to find a better analogy.

You missed the point of the analogy it was not that transexualism could case harm, though i can think of at least a few incidences where it could. I agree these people believe completely that they are trapped in the wrong body, but my point was that believing something does not make it true.

I reference lycanthropes becasuse imagine if you 100% fully believe that you are a werewolf, it doesnt hurt anybody to allow these people to continue their beliefs but we wouldnt start to accomodate them by say, spending 80k of taxpayer money to keep them isolated from general population in prison while they recieve treatment

I point out tht lycanthropy and Gender Identity Disorder are both classed as ailments by the American board of Psych, but then so was being gay up until a point. Now GID isnt your average transgender but one who suffers from dyspohria at the same time causing them distress. Point is in some areas it is still classified as an illness, (this by the way is extremely controversial among the psychiatrists) and can be considered treatable

Yes, but one must also consider that, while incarcerated, a transsexual will, most likely, be repeatedly and violently raped, and probably murdered simply for being what they are. Now, in this case, there is a matter of 'as ye sow, shall ye reap'. However, consider, instead, the case of a transgender imprisoned for, say, a few years for a minor crime. Do they deserve to be raped and murdered?* Let's assume not. That, is the reason so much money is being spent on this case, not because we are trying to accommodate this person, but to protect them. We do the same for police officers and public prosecutors who are incarcerated, and for a number of others. Why not tranassexuals?




*Please, if your answer yes, don't post it, because that is going to send me through the roof.

 

[Woodsey]

You beat me to it - I read this yesterday before forgot to make the post.

It's pathetic, he's still a man - just because you want to dress up as a woman and pretend you're one doesn't make you one - even if you get tit implants and have your dick chopped offs.

Better question - why do ignorant bastards like you get human rights. Bloody hell, you just went and stigmatised a swathe of some of the most unfortunate people in the world, people who are quite literally, born in the wrong body, because....? Because you're pissant morality is a bit offended. I mean, good god in heaven...

She's a rapist and a killer. In my opinion, she should have been put down there and then, but since we aren't going to do that, we should at least acknowledge she is still human, and deserving of, if not compassion, then at least basic humanity. Transsexuals, being, in essence, a woman, in a man's body, or else a man in a woman's body, do not tend to survive prison. Usually, they're raped until they take their own lives, and believe me, nobody deserves that. Fuck, not even Ian Huntley deserves that.

You, sir, are the kind of ignorant peasant who has no place in this forum

Well I don't think I'm an ignorant peasant and have nothing against transsexuals - that's their choice. Yes I can see that that's how it came out, but it fucks me off that scum like this get things easier because of things like this.

Why should he be moved at quite a bit of extra expense (£80,000 I think it said) so that he can go to a womans prison? Especially when it was a woman he raped! And I think his op is being paid for by the public as well (if this is wrong then I apologise, I'm not reading from the OP at the min). So what? I don't care if he thinks he's a man, woman or a bloody dog - no murderer/rapist has human rights.

I bet gay men/women who have commited crimes go to prisons with the the same gender, and I bet they don't exactly have it easy, but that's what you get if you commit a crime.

Having read it back my first post was harsh to say the least, but I meant it towards this man/woman/whatever, not any others.

EDIT: Having said that, what ignorant peasant does think that they're an ignorant peasant?

 

[Ancientgamer]

I'd think that in the eyes of an objective and unbiased court. Gender should be a personal issue. If one is a biological male, then you get sent to a male prison. No ifs, ands or buts. They can work out the rest on their own.

 

[Deleted]

Why do people want to change genders anyways? "I was born a boy in a girls body and I only found out after the technology was available" sounds like a poor excuse. I imagine I was born as a Viking so if you'd let me pillage your house otherwise you're stepping on my soul and you can't have that in America.

Because, buffoon, they believe, wholeheartedly, and utterly, that they are of the wrong gender. And interestingly, it has been proven that in the vast majority of them, the brain functions are exactly the same as a person of the same age of the opposite sex to which they are. In essence, mentally, they are trapped in the wrong body.

Try and imagine that for a moment. Imagine you're a man, a virile, masculine, strong man...and you're stuck in the body of a 5' 4" woman? Imagine exactly how shit each day would be. Imagine, alternatively, being a woman...who everyone sees as a man. A woman virtually no-one would love, would even look at in lust. Imagine...exactly how fucked up, shitty and awful each day must be, you inhuman little berk!

You beat me to it - I read this yesterday before forgot to make the post.

It's pathetic, he's still a man - just because you want to dress up as a woman and pretend you're one doesn't make you one - even if you get tit implants and have your dick chopped offs.

Better question - why do ignorant bastards like you get human rights. Bloody hell, you just went and stigmatised a swathe of some of the most unfortunate people in the world, people who are quite literally, born in the wrong body, because....? Because you're pissant morality is a bit offended. I mean, good god in heaven...

She's a rapist and a killer. In my opinion, she should have been put down there and then, but since we aren't going to do that, we should at least acknowledge she is still human, and deserving of, if not compassion, then at least basic humanity. Transsexuals, being, in essence, a woman, in a man's body, or else a man in a woman's body, do not tend to survive prison. Usually, they're raped until they take their own lives, and believe me, nobody deserves that. Fuck, not even Ian Huntley deserves that.

You, sir, are the kind of ignorant peasant who has no place in this forum

Agreed if your not going to at least attempt to contribute to teh debate then please dont even talk. One line i disagree with it because I should responses are of little benefit to anybody.

I would however disagree with you rolling thunder on your arguement, read back over this thread you will see me kiutu and theultimateend have been debating the topic if you would care to join in reasoned debate.

I think there is a probem with your definitions of transexuals though. They are not men born in womens bodies or vica-versa. They are men and women who believe [i/] that they were born into the wrong bodies and here is th crux of the issues. Lycanthropes are people who believe they are werewolves should we start accomdating them next? IM not saying we should im pointing out the fact that this is a subjective percieved matter.
If it were as clear cut as people being put in the wrong bodies then there would be far less opposition to it. The problem with the case at hand is that while as society we have become more tolerant there has to to be a line where we stop accomodating this kind of thing. Somebodies choice of religion, etc should not affect our view of them but if say their religeon called for them to view women as inferior we wold quickly reject their right to believe what they want in an attempt to correct them.

Read my post above. This is not a case of a psychosis or a delusion. If you'd actually met, and talked with a transsexual, you would probably realise this. Hell, if you'd even done your research, you'd know that, as I said before, their brain chemistry is almost exactly the same as a person of the opposite sex. How this comes about, no-one knows, but a degree of compassion is called for.

And your analogy to religion is a fallacious one. You are comparing a situation where one scenario is advocating something derogatory or hurtful to another part of society (misogeny). Transsexualism, on the other hand, is of no harm to anyone, and thus, I must advise you to find a better analogy.

How can you tell if its a case of a psychosis or a delusion. That's impossible to figure out. Like I said before I truly believed I was a viking how dare you mock that.

If I grew up as a girl I don't know where all these 'masculine tendencies' would come from unless I was raised without gender roles stopping me. My main argument against these silly operations is that it wastes resources and time from people who could really use it. Its pretty much cosmetic surgery. i'm not against the people themselves just the idea that you can be something you're not and get yourself changed when you want. I wanna be a werewolf like that guy said. Of course no ones gonna help me with that.

 

[Epitome]

Yes, but one must also consider that, while incarcerated, a transsexual will, most likely, be repeatedly and violently raped, and probably murdered simply for being what they are. Now, in this case, there is a matter of 'as ye sow, shall ye reap'. However, consider, instead, the case of a transgender imprisoned for, say, a few years for a minor crime. Do they deserve to be raped and murdered?* Let's assume not. That, is the reason so much money is being spent on this case, not because we are trying to accommodate this person, but to protect them. We do the same for police officers and public prosecutors who are incarcerated, and for a number of others. Why not tranassexuals?




*Please, if your answer yes, don't post it, because that is going to send me through the roof.

*headscratch yes wouldnt be an answer to that question?

It is extremely unforunate for transexuals that this guy is the precedent as public opinion is already against him and its hard to look past his crimes to accomodate him by putting him somewhere that is publically percieved as cushier. Of course they do not deserve to be raped and murdered, but neither do the non-transexuals who go to prison but it happens. The problem with accomodating this particular group of people is that it is such an insubstantial quality. Police and judges etc are isolated for the amount of hostility they would recieve, but you cant fake being an ex-cop or judge. But how many inmates would abuse the system by pretending to be transexuals and driving already high costs throught he roof. We cant brainscan all the people who say they are trans and we cant afford to put them all in isolation either. To allow this man is to set precedent for a system wide open to abuse, and teh few actual trans will be shouted down by the fakers. Shit i know if it meant getting isolaton from general populus i would claim gender confusion, wouldnt you?