Creation Engine will likely die a slow death and it's determined to take (some of) us with it...

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SckizoBoy

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Well, looks like I won't be so excited for ES6 when it swings around in the future... hell, I'm already pissed at Bethesda for making 76 online only (well, was, I just don't care any more).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seinYJ0i2o8

So, it's been confirmed that the same engine (with successive tweaks) that ran every game since ES3 will be used for ES6. Pre-emptive doom & gloom, anyone?
 

DarthCoercis

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*shrug* It's bethesda. It'll be a buggy game with a dull story, boring repetitive quests, bland characters and awful factions. Do you really ever expect more from them?
 

Kyrian007

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I'm not sure it matters. I wouldn't expect a brand new (these days read "virtually untested") engine to have fewer bugs and glitches than Creation. Creation's various versions have always been able to really tax even pretty pricey high-end graphics cards... not sure what a brand new engine could add that more tweaks couldn't.

Here's an interesting question. If they made a brand new engine but kept the gameplay elements the same and decided NOT to shout about the fact that they made a new engine and instead (again a what if... this would never happen) branded it as just the latest version of Creation, would people even notice? Modders would. Your average player... I doubt it. In the end the success of every one of the Creation engine games, and the Gamebryo engine before it, had nothing to do with what engine it ran on. The content made each the success they were. And I suspect that will be the case for ES6, its content will determine the kind of success it has.

Most people could give a shit less what game engine is running a game. Crowing over "the engine, the technology" is just more publisher hype bullshit aimed at making gullible people more likely to buy their games. Indie developers prove over and over that seriously outdated tech can still make amazing games, anybody who buys into the hype that the technology a game is based on is a make or break factor in development... well they make the shysters in marketing jobs' a lot easier.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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In their defense, it is still an engine that works very well for the kinds of games that Bethesda makes. It can handle both vast exteriors and cramped interiors with equal prowess (something that RDR2, for example, can't do, with its interiors being very hard to navigate), it has proven able to stay on the curve in terms of graphical fidelity and has a decent physics engine. As far as game engines goes it is not great, but it is well-suited to a specific kind of game, the kind of game that Bethesda makes.
 
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To be fair though plenty of games still run perfectly happily on the Unreal engine, and that's been around in various incarnations for 20 years. If you put Oblivion and Fallout 4 next to one another I couldn't have told you they were made with the same game engine, so I don't see any reason to suspect that ES6 will suffer from using an existing engine.
 
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I am a big TES fan and have no objection to the engine. They've developed and improved it over years, finally making the leap to 64-bit with FO4. A mature engine and a dev team that know it inside out and can develop it further (since it's their engine) is vastly better than getting a third party one like Unreal4, Unity, CryEngine, Source 2, etc.

Not only that, but they have many assets that could be helpful in a sequel, rather than having to reinvent the wheel. Further, modders like myself are quite comfortable with the modding toolset, Papyrus and Bethesda's file structure. It's similar to how BioWare's Infinity Engine games (and later Aurora and even Eclipse (DA:O)) kept a similar structure for 2da, tlk files, override folders and so on.

There are things to be improved for sure. I wouldn't mind seeing radiant AI improved for one thing. Hopefully the leap to 64-bit and new console generation (although at this point, I would HATE for TES6 to come out on PS4/XBone and would rather it came out on whatever comes NEXT) will mean bigger maps, fewer loading screens, more immersive elements and fewer compromises, a LOT more NPCs in the world (seriously, whole cities with like 15 NPCs), decals that stick around longer and graphical things like parallax that really make the world come alive.

To be honest, the engine isn't even near the top of the things I'd hope to see in TES6. I think TES game's biggest letdown has been the lessing on the RPG part, making the game simpler and simpler and simpler as well as shallow characters. I would love to see characters as fleshed out as DA: Origins or Mass Effect trilogy's squadmates, a more competent story, mage's, fighter's and thieves guilds that require players to be roleplaying as one of those classes. I'd like stats back, I think the move to pure perk system starting in Skyrim and later FO4 was a net negative. I want stat points and skills back. More weapon classes, not fewer, bring back Acrobatics, more spell schools. Morrowind did every one of these things better than Skyrim.

CDPR have their RED Engine, EA has Frostbite, Squeenix have...whatever they can get their hands on and Bethesda has theirs. It's fine, it works fine, Skyrim was great. TES6 doesn't need a new engine...it needs to ignore this current console generation since we're already coming to the PS4/XBone end-of-life, be the most advanced it can be for the next gen, bring back roleplaying, with a good story and lots of deep, well written characters to join us.
 

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DarthCoercis said:
*shrug* It's bethesda. It'll be a buggy game with a dull story, boring repetitive quests, bland characters and awful factions. Do you really ever expect more from them?
Expect? Nah, its Bethesda. Hope against hope? Yeah, maybe. Maybe one day some writers in some dusty forgotten corner will write a main story that isn't just 'one faction is racist, the other isn't'. Like there's more to fight over in Fallout and TES than just those people over yonder don't look like me.
 

SckizoBoy

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Gethsemani said:
In their defense, it is still an engine that works very well for the kinds of games that Bethesda makes. It can handle both vast exteriors and cramped interiors with equal prowess (something that RDR2, for example, can't do, with its interiors being very hard to navigate), it has proven able to stay on the curve in terms of graphical fidelity and has a decent physics engine. As far as game engines goes it is not great, but it is well-suited to a specific kind of game, the kind of game that Bethesda makes.
First person view oddly alleviates interior navigation difficulty in RDR2, but I think the animation/physics system is too wonderful to give up for snappier looting in close quarters. Even as it is, it?s made easier by being able to simply hold down the loot button to automatically open/take anything you walk up to.
 

IceForce

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Be careful what you wish for.

Mass Effect made the jump to a new/different engine with Andromeda, and look how that turned out.
 

TheSapphireKnight

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This obsession people seem to have with the "engine" is baffling to me. Is getting a new engine going to make them write better? Because I find that to have been a far bigger problem as of late. New Vegas is held together by spit and bailing wire, but its still a great game because of its writing. Morrowind was clunky as all hell, but the world they built was incredibly memorable.

Would I like a better performing, more stable engine? Sure, but again I'd rather see them hire a better writer and add some more emphasis on the whole "RPG" aspect again as well. I will take the updated creation engines for its mod friendly nature alone.
 
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I mean, aren't most popular engines just the same engine with tons of tweaks and optimizations? The important part is to take out the old stuff and put in the new code. Which I think might be Bethesda's problem.
 

Ravinoff

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IceForce said:
Be careful what you wish for.

Mass Effect made the jump to a new/different engine with Andromeda, and look how that turned out.
Andromeda felt fine engine-wise, Frostbite is a bit overused because EA, but it's not bad (albeit better suited to FPSes, I think). The problem was the switch halfway through development and the subsequent need to slap together something halfway functional in 18 months. That, and absolutely godawful writing that gave us [url https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkQ8wUluk6M] this gem[/url], 80% of what was wrong with Andromeda was that Ryder was a total doofus. Which might have worked in a new IP, but was an absolutely terrible move for a Mass Effect game. Shepard, no matter what background options you picked or choices you made through the trilogy, was a fucking iron-hard N7 special forces veteran who kicked an extinction event square in the face (unless you picked the "do nothing" ending, in which case I am disappointed in you). Which extends into your crew too, Andromeda had...shit, I'm not sure I can even name them all. Crazy-ass asari, cute Turian babe, Generic Guy the Third (proud successor to Carth Onasi and Kaidan Alenko), bitchy blonde biotic, token new alien race guy, and not-Wrex. That's literally all I remember of any of them other than one or two vague personality traits for each.

Oh yeah, and removing dialogue interrupts was a total fuckup too. A few of my absolute favourite bits in the series (if not in gaming as a whole) came off those.
 

Something Amyss

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DarthCoercis said:
*shrug* It's bethesda. It'll be a buggy game with a dull story, boring repetitive quests, bland characters and awful factions. Do you really ever expect more from them?
And people will shower it with praise because you can ignore all that and chop wood or whatever their next insipid task is.
 

Casual Shinji

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DarthCoercis said:
*shrug* It's bethesda. It'll be a buggy game with a dull story, boring repetitive quests, bland characters and awful factions. Do you really ever expect more from them?
ooh, ow, ouch.. so true.
IceForce said:
Be careful what you wish for.

Mass Effect made the jump to a new/different engine with Andromeda, and look how that turned out.
Did that really have to do with the engine? Dragon Age: Inquisition ran on Frostbite too, and it looked fine.
 

Something Amyss

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Did that really have to do with the engine? Dragon Age: Inquisition ran on Frostbite too, and it looked fine.
Weren't there a crapton of bugs? I recall there being a ton of complaints about the game being more bugged than a creepypasta coy of RDR.

Granted, that's probably a lateral move for Fallout or TES at worst....
 

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TheSapphireKnight said:
This obsession people seem to have with the "engine" is baffling to me. Is getting a new engine going to make them write better? Because I find that to have been a far bigger problem as of late. New Vegas is held together by spit and bailing wire, but its still a great game because of its writing. Morrowind was clunky as all hell, but the world they built was incredibly memorable.

Would I like a better performing, more stable engine? Sure, but again I'd rather see them hire a better writer and add some more emphasis on the whole "RPG" aspect again as well. I will take the updated creation engines for its mod friendly nature alone.
Kinda have to agree with this.

MGSV used the FOX engine which most people agree is amazing for what it does. Unfortunatly, the engine ended up being the best thing about the game because the writing was....not good(even compared to the other games in the series) and the rest of the game felt like a total mess.

It's important to have a good foundation to build off of, but the rest of the work needs to be up to par as well.
 

wings012

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TheSapphireKnight said:
This obsession people seem to have with the "engine" is baffling to me. Is getting a new engine going to make them write better? Because I find that to have been a far bigger problem as of late. New Vegas is held together by spit and bailing wire, but its still a great game because of its writing. Morrowind was clunky as all hell, but the world they built was incredibly memorable.

Would I like a better performing, more stable engine? Sure, but again I'd rather see them hire a better writer and add some more emphasis on the whole "RPG" aspect again as well. I will take the updated creation engines for its mod friendly nature alone.
I think it's just a response to Fallout 76 running like utter arse even on high end PCs(so I've heard) despite not looking like anything that would make such machines chug. Maybe it's just poor programming and optimization on their part, but maybe it could be the engine. Though from the sounds of it, the engine is the least of 76's problems.

I used to work for a studio that ran a dated in house engine. It was utter arse from a developer standpoint. You had to rebuild entire levels just to preview a single asset. In UE4 you can just plop something in and it'd be a decent representation of what you're going to get. I remember some stories about Destiny's engine being kinda nonsense, requiring overnight unpacks just to shuffle a few assets around though I'm not sure how true those are.


It is true that new engines aren't magic bullets to all problems. Building one from scratch is an insane expense. Adopting a new third party one will require re-education of a lot of staff. That staff being less proficient with the newer more capable engine could result in a crappier even buggier product.

At the same time if the engine is inherently more developer friendly or whatnot, it could be by its own virtue less prone to bugs and instability.

The old engine Beth sticks to is also somewhat symbolic of just how stagnant they are compared to their peers. A willingness to build/adopt a new engine could be seen as a willingness to improve.

I do agree that I much prefer seeing better writing in their games. Despite everything, the gameplay of their games have been improving. Fallout 4's gunplay is actually quite serviceable compared to Fallout 3. The dialogue on the other hand....
 

Drathnoxis

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Shamus' take is relevant to this discussion.

Shamus Young said:
Bethesda Softworks is infamous for releasing buggy games. Sure, people love the open world sandboxes of Fallout and Elder Scrolls anyway. The games operate like an amusement park where the player can wander freely in search of fun without needing to follow a predetermined path set by the game designer. The open world stuff can feel like repetitive busy work in Ubisoft games, but in a Bethesda game all those dungeons and outposts are hand-crafted adventures with lots of variety and sometimes even a little story. It's a style of game you can't get from any other developer. This formula has proven popular enough to make The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim one of the best-selling games in the history of the medium.

But still. All those bugs.

Bethesda games have graphical glitches, goofy unintended exploits, misbehaving interface elements, malfunctioning AI, unbalanced combat mechanics, broken quests, bizarre animation problems, broken economies, and of course lots of crashes. Every once in a while someone makes the suggestion that Bethesda needs to wipe the slate clean and start over with a new game engine. I understand why people say this, but the truth is that the engine isn't the source of the problem and replacing it would only make things worse.

The game engine in question has a long lineage. It was originally created by Gamebase and was called NetImmerse. It was rebranded as Gamebryo around 2003. This is the name most closely associated with Bethesda titles. The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion and Fallout 3 were both built using the Gamebryo engine of this era. Afterward, Bethesda began working on their own version of the Gamebryo engine independent of of what Gamebase was doing. Bethesda's forked version was eventually renamed the Creation Engine, which is the name being used today. (Lots of people still refer to it as Gamebryo out of habit.)

For the record, most companies can't do this sort of thing. If you're a bedroom programmer and you use the Unity game engine to make an indie game, you don't get access to the Unity source code. You can build a game on top of the engine, but you can't change the engine itself. However, if you happen to own a company with some cash, you might be able to pay extra money and get access to the source. You can then make changes to how the engine works, perhaps to gain access to the low-level guts of the rendering pipeline, or to add support for some obscure platform not currently supported by the engine. Even then, you're usually stuck using the engine for one title. If you decide to make another game, you need to sign another agreement with the company behind the engine. However, if you're a huge corporation and you've got ridiculous piles of cash to throw around, then in some cases you might be able to pay a one-time fee and get open-ended access to the source, meaning you're free to do whatever you want with it. You can grow it into a new engine over time and use it on multiple games without needing to offer more money or ask for permission. (If the original engine author is smart, they'll stipulate that you can't license your version of the engine to other companies. Otherwise, they might end up competing against their own engine.) While the details have never been disclosed, I suspect the latter case is the kind of deal Bethesda made with Gamebase.

Bethesda is now in control over their own engine, and their engine is notoriously buggy. This leads many people to conclude that Bethesda should throw the whole thing away and start over. People say it in print, they say it in YouTube videos, and they say it often in comments. This is an understandable reaction and I understand why people have it. On the surface, it sounds reasonable: If the engine is full of bugs, then replacing the engine should get rid of the bugs.

Sadly, it's not that simple. This isn't a technology problem. This is a problem with the company culture, and those kinds of problems are a lot harder to correct.

18 years ago, Joel Spolsky wrote an article titled "Things You Should Never Do, Part I," which cites the famous case of how Netscape - the original king of the web browsers - basically killed their product because the developers wanted to re-code everything from scratch. This is actually a common story. Wiping the slate clean is a very tempting thing for programmers. Over time, code gets complicated and hard to manage. Often programmers will long for the early days of a project, when they were working on a blank canvas. There weren't a lot of dependencies, compile times were short, and it took you five minutes to find and fix a bug instead of an afternoon. Over time, a project grows in complexity and becomes a terrible snarl of cobbled-together technology. It's easy to look back on those early days in a project as some sort of golden age and wonder how it all went wrong. The thing is, it didn't go wrong. The mature software is complex and fiddly because it needs to do complex and fiddly things. If the same company rewrites the same software using the same team of developers and the same development process, then they'll spend years of precious time and millions of dollars in opportunity costs to wind up with a less polished version of what they started with.

So maybe the solution is to throw away the creation engine and license a modern, stable, feature-rich engine like Unreal Engine or CryEngine? Except, Bethesda games have some rather particular needs that aren't covered by the typical off-the-shelf engines. Bethesda games need to store the state of the entire world. Players expect that if they slay the Underking, loot his tomb, and pose the Underking's twice-dead body with his face pressed against the seat of his throne, they should be able to come back days later and find the tomb exactly as they left it. If they toss 400 cheese wheels on the ground in the town of Whiterun, then those cheese wheels better still be there the next time they visit. The game needs to be able to handle large-scale AI behaviors that have agents roaming all over the world and going through a daily routine, even when their part of the world isn't loaded. Most importantly, the game needs to be very open to modding so that end users can make sweeping changes to the gameplay, art, sounds, music, animations, and interface, using self-contained package files. These aren't impossible-to-solve problems, but they do run against how a lot of modern game engines are designed. If Bethesda wanted to use one of the big-name engines out there, it would require extensive modifications. That would just lead them back to where they are now, with buggy games based on an engine that's been twisted in ways it was never designed to go.

The problem isn't the bugs. Every game has bugs while it's being developed. What counts is how you deal with them, and I suspect Bethesda's bug-fixing machinery is neglected and broken. Either management doesn't care, or the leadership doesn't know how to correct their process.

Every company has a slightly different procedure for dealing with software bugs. Some developers like Valve and Blizzard use an iterative process of constant playtesting, which would necessitate continuous bug fixing. Other developers save the debugging for last, which means if they run out of time then the bug-fixing stage gets cut short. (I've always suspected that Obsidian Entertainment is the latter kind of developer.) Some development teams have people dedicated to debugging, while others have the entire programming staff share the burden.

Tracking and fixing software bugs is a long and complex process. You need a robust team of dedicated people to exhaustively test the software and identify the problems. These reports go into a database where they can be described, categorized, and prioritized. Then those problems can be investigated by the programmers who will enact a fix. Then the new version of the software is provided to the testers, and they can make sure the problem really is fixed for all known cases. If it isn't, it gets sent back to the coding staff for another go. This is a complex process that can involve dozens of people.

It's not like bugs are limited to their engine. The new Bethesda game launcher apparently shows the same lack of stability and penchant for odd behavior that infects their games.

Maybe the Bethesda debugging and testing process is broken and things are getting marked as fixed without being reviewed first. Maybe there's no discipline and programmers can add features whenever they want, thus creating fresh bugs in areas that have already been tested and approved for release. Maybe programmers are free to select which bugs they want to tackle so you end up with a few that are ignored because nobody wants to deal with them. Maybe the process works fine, but the team isn't given enough time to do it properly. Maybe their system of organizing bugs is so terrible and confusing that important issues get lost in the shuffle. Maybe they don't have enough testers, or the testers aren't thorough enough to find all the problems. Maybe the team just doesn't care, because management doesn't care, because the bugs don't seem to hurt sales.

Whatever the cause of the dysfunction, Bethesda's janky engine is a symptom of the problem, not the cause. If management put a priority on fixing their development process and was willing to spend money to make sure the software was stable, then it would happen. Bethesda employs smart people. The job could get done. If management isn't willing to take those steps, then a new engine would turn out exactly like the current one.

Any thoughts on that?