Critical Miss: Space Marine

[Smooth Operator]

It's funny cuz it's true, the only reason I like Space Marine over X random modern brown shooter is the theme.

But hey it's the little things that really matter

 

[Fatal-X]

No...Space Marine is NOT based on a strategy game. Fool. The game is based on Warhammer 40k universe.

The Gears of War comparison is stupid, there's no cover system in Space Marine and Gears are famous for their cover system. Plus SM has a lot of melee combat, Gears don't.
So stop making that damn comparison!

You may wonder why this game is so popular when it's nothing special...it's a first good game in Warhammer 40k universe that has a focus on slashing and shooting and not on the tactical aspect. That's why fans of the universe are happy with it.

 

[The_Emperor]

Combat could of done with more strategy, space marines aren't half as invincible as they are in this game either, a cover system would of been nice actually, marines get a 3+ armour save but cover save is needed against weapons like plasma cannons, which aren't half as fast as they are portrayed to be in the game either, they weren't even as fast in Dawn of War

I bring issue to this statement. You're hardly invincible, especially not on Hard, and you are a Captain. Last I checked in the rules, they have considerably more perks than your average marine (as, for example, your marine in MP will die to a single shot of a plasma cannon, and it takes all of five shots to kill someone with a plasma gun, considerably more with more with a Bolter unless every shot is to the head. In single player, Titus will die to two or three rocket direct hits on Hard, in the Lab. The plasma cannon will kill you if it hits dead on. The Heavy Bolter will rip you to shreds in a matter of seconds. You will die in one or two hits to the Chaos Champions depending on a Glancing Blow vs. Direct Hit (and this is with the Iron Halo upgrade). A Nob will kill you in two hits. 'Ard Guys can kill you in four hits.). And the game has a cover system, its just not "Press B to stick to wall!", the levels are all designed (aside from the fight atop the Invictus) with an abundance of cover for you to use... and you will use it on Hard.

The last fight, even if it is a QTE, was some what holed into being something like it. There is no way for Titus to win that fight, not if he had ten marines assist him, not if he had Terminator armor, if they fought on the ground in a fair fight. And, to be honest, after using up all of my ammunition on the crazy waves and two champions prior to the final boss, I sort of enjoyed the QTE.

Yes, Relic took liberties with some parts of the background, but was that necessarily for the worse? I doubt the things they put in weren't approved by GW, considering how tight they are with their Lore and what they allowed to be even remotely considered cannon. Not to mention that Titus as Captain of the Second is a contradiction on the real Second Unit of the Ultramarines.

not even a sticky wall system just being able to duck would of been nice. A plasma cannon would kill 3 marines if they were standing together, its 1 dice and AP2 in 40k, but that things all like pew pew, like a plasma rifle.

I've got it on hard and I find it a bit easy, not trying to sound good or anything that's just the truth. Captains are traditionally lesser characters, have 2/3 wounds and unless they are wearing terminator armour or artificer armour have a save of 3+. I think he dies quick enough but its him vs 320910928301 orks and he just wades through em, with the help of 2 other marines. To me it seems he should of felt more threat from ork boyz and stuff, or even just had more marines from the onset, not hot dropping in groups of 3 :/


I understand it has to be a fun game but a little more attention to the source material and a bit less action movie rambo flavour cheese would of been nice, could of been a bit grittier.

IMO they should of dropped in a squad of 5 minimum, 2 could of died from the outset, they should of fought tooth and nail through the horde rather than "hey this your ship? lol i kilt it, lol that an army of orcs? chainsaw sword lulz all dead" A group of 5 vs 1 captain in the tabletop game is like if he wins its heroic cos thats 10 dice or 15 if they charge and he has like 2 or 3 attacks. In the videogame it just feels like the orks are no threat, theres no tension. It's as if titus is Marneus Calgar chapter master, or the Nightbringer or something.

I still like it though, it's still a decent laugh, I just think it's just a bit sloppy overall. I see what you're saying I think they missed the grit out though!

 

[The Diabolical Biz]

Combat could of done with more strategy, space marines aren't half as invincible as they are in this game either, a cover system would of been nice actually, marines get a 3+ armour save but cover save is needed against weapons like plasma cannons, which aren't half as fast as they are portrayed to be in the game either, they weren't even as fast in Dawn of War

I bring issue to this statement. You're hardly invincible, especially not on Hard, and you are a Captain. Last I checked in the rules, they have considerably more perks than your average marine (as, for example, your marine in MP will die to a single shot of a plasma cannon, and it takes all of five shots to kill someone with a plasma gun, considerably more with more with a Bolter unless every shot is to the head. In single player, Titus will die to two or three rocket direct hits on Hard, in the Lab. The plasma cannon will kill you if it hits dead on. The Heavy Bolter will rip you to shreds in a matter of seconds. You will die in one or two hits to the Chaos Champions depending on a Glancing Blow vs. Direct Hit (and this is with the Iron Halo upgrade). A Nob will kill you in two hits. 'Ard Guys can kill you in four hits.). And the game has a cover system, its just not "Press B to stick to wall!", the levels are all designed (aside from the fight atop the Invictus) with an abundance of cover for you to use... and you will use it on Hard.

The last fight, even if it is a QTE, was some what holed into being something like it. There is no way for Titus to win that fight, not if he had ten marines assist him, not if he had Terminator armor, if they fought on the ground in a fair fight. And, to be honest, after using up all of my ammunition on the crazy waves and two champions prior to the final boss, I sort of enjoyed the QTE.

Yes, Relic took liberties with some parts of the background, but was that necessarily for the worse? I doubt the things they put in weren't approved by GW, considering how tight they are with their Lore and what they allowed to be even remotely considered cannon. Not to mention that Titus as Captain of the Second is a contradiction on the real Second Unit of the Ultramarines.

not even a sticky wall system just being able to duck would of been nice. A plasma cannon would kill 3 marines if they were standing together, its 1 dice and AP2 in 40k, but that things all like pew pew, like a plasma rifle.

I've got it on hard and I find it a bit easy, not trying to sound good or anything that's just the truth. Captains are traditionally lesser characters, have 2/3 wounds and unless they are wearing terminator armour or artificer armour have a save of 3+. I think he dies quick enough but its him vs 320910928301 orks and he just wades through em, with the help of 2 other marines. To me it seems he should of felt more threat from ork boyz and stuff, or even just had more marines from the onset, not hot dropping in groups of 3 :/


I understand it has to be a fun game but a little more attention to the source material and a bit less action movie rambo flavour cheese would of been nice, could of been a bit grittier.

IMO they should of dropped in a squad of 5 minimum, 2 could of died from the outset, they should of fought tooth and nail through the horde rather than "hey this your ship? lol i kilt it, lol that an army of orcs? chainsaw sword lulz all dead" A group of 5 vs 1 captain in the tabletop game is like if he wins its heroic cos thats 10 dice or 15 if they charge and he has like 2 or 3 attacks. In the videogame it just feels like the orks are no threat, theres no tension. It's as if titus is Marneus Calgar chapter master, or the Nightbringer or something.

I still like it though, it's still a decent laugh, I just think it's just a bit sloppy overall. I see what you're saying I think they missed the grit out though!

I think part of the point is that it's not rule marines, it's fluff marines. In the fluff, god damn it they're ridiculous. There's a fluff marines list floating around somewhere on the web, and a squad of marines and a rhino is >1000 points!

Anyway, once you start looking at it like that it makes a lot more sense.

 

[Venats]

not even a sticky wall system just being able to duck would of been nice. A plasma cannon would kill 3 marines if they were standing together, its 1 dice and AP2 in 40k, but that things all like pew pew, like a plasma rifle.

You don't really need to duck when all the cover is built to cover you, standing or not. It would have just required different level design if you added ducking. As for the Plasma Cannon, and having been playing a lot of the MP recently (as I actually find it fun), the weapon is too powerful right now. It shoots too quickly for what can easily kill three marines with one hit, or knock them down to 1/8th of their health.

I've got it on hard and I find it a bit easy, not trying to sound good or anything that's just the truth. Captains are traditionally lesser characters, have 2/3 wounds and unless they are wearing terminator armour or artificer armour have a save of 3+. I think he dies quick enough but its him vs 320910928301 orks and he just wades through em, with the help of 2 other marines. To me it seems he should of felt more threat from ork boyz and stuff, or even just had more marines from the onset, not hot dropping in groups of 3 :/

The game is decently easy/straight forward on hard until the end, imo. I'd be hard pressed to hear that you found fighting the Chaos Champions (or the plasma spamming marines on earlier levels) on the last level easy. That or I played horribly in that moment because I was out of every drop of ammo save my pistol, and had to kill them with Fury. All that aside, yes they did make the Orcs (at least the normal boyz) a bit easy. They die in two-three hits from your melee, but to some degree I think that that was for the better. You can't really add all of the table top rules to the game because in real time, if Titus were real, he'd probably be carving the crap out of the normal boyz as he does in the game, or shooting them in the head pretty frequently. I think they did a good job in translating from table top to a more 'real time' environment. (I mean, how can a man of metal find a bunch of green men with axes all that threatening? Especially when he has exploding bullets and a power axe, when they have no armor at all?)

 

[The_Emperor]

snip

yeah I still think it missed out on the feel you get from the tabletop, against all odds, tooth and nail, clawing your way through the lines etc.

especially fighting the orks, there are just so many of them.

I think it would of been a little better if it were more dawn of war 2 style but hella close up, so the map was a little more open, more destructive enviroment, giving commands with D pad ala Star Wars Republic Commando, rather than Dynasty Warriors Space Marine.

I dunno I still think they could of done a lot better with out a considerable amount more effort.

They missed the essence of 40k world basically imo

I am looking forward to an Imperial Guard FPS lol.

 

[Artemis923]

I love 40k, and the ability to lay into hordes of Orks and Traitor Marines was nothing short of fucking awesome.

I hope Relic does well enough to make another game...there's so much untapped potential for bad ass in the 40k universe.

 

[PBMcNair]

I am looking forward to an Imperial Guard FPS lol.

I've always liked the idea, but the problem with doing anything with Guard is that they're pretty much one-shotted by every races signiture weaponry, especially in fluff.

The answer I came up with was to do a game about some thing like a vindicare assasin, an elite unit that has skills and tech that allow it to be far better than a standard human, without hitting the walking tank level of space marines.

Still I'm fairly certain its all moot, since I assume Fire Warrior killed the warhammer FPS for a while.

 

[Slacker Alex]

"...does little to placate my righteous fury."

Careful, popping righteous fury means you'll pull aggro. =D

 

[Namewithheld]

Space marine could of been so much better, I still enjoy it but it could of been so much more, There was a part when I found an "experimental weapon" which annoyed me because there are no such things, all the weapons are relics that are maintained, there is no "Emperor R&D" section in the mechanicum it's kind of forbidden.

Untrue!

Tech-priests DO experiment. Just slowly and carefully and never quite able to reach the level of the Dark Age of Technology. And usually, their efforts are either branded as heretical or are simply not as good as what humanity used to be able to make.

 

[snfonseka]

Isn't that a Real-Time strategy game? not a Turn-Base one....

 

[nyysjan]

Space marine could of been so much better, I still enjoy it but it could of been so much more, There was a part when I found an "experimental weapon" which annoyed me because there are no such things, all the weapons are relics that are maintained, there is no "Emperor R&D" section in the mechanicum it's kind of forbidden.

Untrue!

Tech-priests DO experiment. Just slowly and carefully and never quite able to reach the level of the Dark Age of Technology. And usually, their efforts are either branded as heretical or are simply not as good as what humanity used to be able to make.

And then there is always the 'hey look this totally not new or experimental ancient relic i found under my bed' style of uncovering "existing" knowledge.
And on that note, there's lot of archeological research going on to uncover archeotech left from the dark age of technology.

 

[Namewithheld]

Space marine could of been so much better, I still enjoy it but it could of been so much more, There was a part when I found an "experimental weapon" which annoyed me because there are no such things, all the weapons are relics that are maintained, there is no "Emperor R&D" section in the mechanicum it's kind of forbidden.

Untrue!

Tech-priests DO experiment. Just slowly and carefully and never quite able to reach the level of the Dark Age of Technology. And usually, their efforts are either branded as heretical or are simply not as good as what humanity used to be able to make.

And then there is always the 'hey look this totally not new or experimental ancient relic i found under my bed' style of uncovering "existing" knowledge.
And on that note, there's lot of archeological research going on to uncover archeotech left from the dark age of technology.

Yup!

Which is why we need a Rogue Trader game. Because Rogue Traders are the few Warhammer 40,000 characters that are both free and powerful. Imagine a Mass Effect style game...in Warhammer 4nnnghhh

I just...came...

 

[nyysjan]

Space marine could of been so much better, I still enjoy it but it could of been so much more, There was a part when I found an "experimental weapon" which annoyed me because there are no such things, all the weapons are relics that are maintained, there is no "Emperor R&D" section in the mechanicum it's kind of forbidden.

Untrue!

Tech-priests DO experiment. Just slowly and carefully and never quite able to reach the level of the Dark Age of Technology. And usually, their efforts are either branded as heretical or are simply not as good as what humanity used to be able to make.

And then there is always the 'hey look this totally not new or experimental ancient relic i found under my bed' style of uncovering "existing" knowledge.
And on that note, there's lot of archeological research going on to uncover archeotech left from the dark age of technology.

Yup!

Which is why we need a Rogue Trader game. Because Rogue Traders are the few Warhammer 40,000 characters that are both free and powerful. Imagine a Mass Effect style game...in Warhammer 4nnnghhh

I just...came...

While i am not quite as exited about ME style game in WH40K as you seem to be, i do agree that it would be awesome.

 

[Andy of Comix Inc]

This strip made me think. Space Marine isn't really greyish-brown at all - for the most of the game you're looking at bright green and royal blue. The environments are brownish-red, but that's not the colour of the game. Grey-brown is usually a filter that universally affects the game's visuals.

Also, Space Marine also isn't about muscular space marines, it's about power-armoured, super-strength space marines. Plus, it's used the universe of a tabletop strategy game and bought it to life. Not taken an existing, strategy game that was doing fine, and turning it into an FPS. I don't get it. Warhammer already has an FPS anyway, Fire Warrior, so Space Marine isn't exactly the first time the universe has been exploited in an action-game.

And Space Marine is nothing like Gears of War. Gears is about macho-manly-men waving their existential cocks around and being totally rad, shouting obscenities and breaking all the rules as they try to protect, y'know, the Earth, and Space Marine is about ultra-serious, Emperor's-finest, best-at-their-job and bound-to-their-loyalties religious fanatics cleaning the scourge of the universe off of the planet they want because it has a handful of their weapons on it that they'd rather keep.

So really, I don't know where this criticism of the game is coming from. From... out the ether or something? I dunno, I think you just don't want to like it because you're not enjoying it.

 

[PunkRex]

I would love a poster of Erin and Sharon making out on top of a copy of pikmin in the World of Warcraft... or if thats TOOOOoooo MUuUCH TO ASK FOOOooooOOOR... then maybe a poster of a seagull making Cory his wife, huhuhuh, I still laugh when I remember that comic.

My friends used to use Blue... my poor goblins...

 

[Rangerboy87]

Ideas...how bout "Spice Effect"...have a button or a shirt with the Garrus saying "I'm in the middle of some calibrations"...I loved that one

 

[Susan Arendt]

I would love a poster of Erin and Sharon making out on top of a copy of pikmin in the World of Warcraft... or if thats TOOOOoooo MUuUCH TO ASK FOOOooooOOOR... then maybe a poster of a seagull making Cory his wife, huhuhuh, I still laugh when I remember that comic.

My friends used to use Blue... my poor goblins...

Seriously, what's wrong with you?

 

[Therumancer]

In response to the strip and the commentary I will say that I don't think there is much in the way of so called "fogeyism" involved here. Certain kinds of features have become connected to a style of gameplay directed at the lowest human denominator currently being catered to by game companies. Certain types of features tend to show that the developers are aiming for that crowd nowadays and thus have become popular examples of "what is wrong with a game".

Really, it's easier to point towards the features that have been associated with industry trends than to be politically incorrect and just flat out say that your getting tired of the industry designing games for morons. Doing so directly generally results in flame wars, because by definition the problem is a LOT of people being in the gaming community at a
level where they do not belong. The gaming industry is doing what they do because of the numbers, and the money to be made off of them.


It's easier to go off about regenerating health, cover base mechanics, and similar things than to say "Gears Of War is stupid, and it and those games that are imitating it bring the wrong people into the hobby, creating a self perpetuating cycle of degeneration and rot". You attack the components, and your less likely to slot people off.

I've never been a shooter fan, but the basic arguement on this front is of course that things like cover, regnerating health, and similar things have created games that anyone who wants to put the time in can beat. The games being made easy enough to atract players with constant self-validation. You rarely see games nowadays where a player is simply going to be unable to progress because they aren't good enough, no matter what they do. In an enviroment where anyone who wants to can beat a game, it destroys a lot of what made gaming worthwhile to begin with. This can be applied to a lot of differant types of games nowadays, not just shooters.

As I, and other people have pointed out, shooters are generally not "hardcore" despite what a lot of people might want to claim, they are basically farmville for a differant audience. The quintessential non-violent player, or bored housewife, can sit down and play "Farmville" with no real challenge or chance of getting stuck, and chat with all of her similar friends as she does it. Your typical "shooter" is the same thing for a more active/violent crowd, no real challenge overall, and typically a robust multi-player component and community for the same kind of socialization through the games.

Where I think your correct is that we really do need to see the indirect criticism stop, and see these kinds of issues addressed far more directly. Of course in the end it all comes down to the gaming industry itself balancing things out for the betterment of the medium.

Ideally, there would be enough games of various types out there for everyone, but that's generally not what we're seeing. It's possible to make games for "serious" gamers, but such games are expensive, take hard work, and while they turn a profit, it's not overall as profitable to producing an easier, cheaper, product that appeals to more people. Shoveling out social networking/browser based games, shooters, and iPhone apps are what the industry is increasingly focusing on because of the money to be made. The attempt to define shooters as "hardcore" is also part of this, because really that's kind of what the industry wishes was true. As time goes on, look at the current climate for RPGs, with companies like Bioware claiming they are "losing relevency", when really their bottom line is that they realize they can make more money and develop games easier by simply adding storylines and cinematics into what is otherwise a straightforward action enviroment.

The point is that what we're generally seeing is people trying to be diplomatic, even I tend to mince words on the subject a lot more than I probably should.

As far as people who otherwise hold to these ideals changing their position for "Space Marine", well, it's no secret that a good liscence can carry an otherwise mediocre product. Truthfully the guys at "Games Workshop" have been kind of dumb when it's come to marketing computer games through the years. The whole "macho space marine" schtick was pretty much their bag for a long time, and inspired tons of games when they hardly developed their own. Now that we see the original inspiration it can be kind of embarassing on some levels, but fans of the original source material everyone else was copying are going to appreciate it for that.

Truthfully, I think Games Workshop should have learned their lesson years ago when "Blizzard" developed Warcraft as a Warhammer liscence, and then turned it into a massive success (after a name change) after Games Workshop passed on the project. Really, the THQ RTS games are one of their few major, stand-alone successes.

Honestly I've been of the opinion for a while that what Games Workshop needs to do is simply come out with a computer based version of their tabletop game, with all the figures/rules/etc.. present in the game, and where people can actually play a turn-by-turn game of warhammer/40k with their armies of choice via computer. This is neither here nor there though. I always figured they never bothered to try this and have gone the route they have largely because they feared that if they went computer-based people would stop playing/buying the physical products.

 

[pppppppppppppppppp]

There's a growing hatred amongst pithy internet critics for muted or monochromatic color schemes, Quick Time Events, regenerating health, cover systems and slew of other randomly selection design decisions, that doesn't take into account how well they actually work in a given title.

coughcoughcoughYahtzeecoughcough

/just saying what we're all thinking