D&D players I need your help making a class and naming it
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99% of character concepts can be made using the classes and options provided. the rest shouldn't be made anyway.
There are 3 players handbooks now, 2 martial powers, an arcane power, I think there's a divine power book as well, there's going to be the Heroes of Shadow book coming out soon
So many options in this game, in my games, I actually have to almost arbitrarily restrict options.. I like my games to have a certain classic high fantasy vibe to them, so a thing like that Shardmind character race from the PHB3 just does not cut it in my games.
There are 3 players handbooks now, 2 martial powers, an arcane power, I think there's a divine power book as well, there's going to be the Heroes of Shadow book coming out soon
So many options in this game, in my games, I actually have to almost arbitrarily restrict options.. I like my games to have a certain classic high fantasy vibe to them, so a thing like that Shardmind character race from the PHB3 just does not cut it in my games.
Distribution:Altorin said:
Power Sources:
Arcane
Swordmage
Warlock
Wizard
Sorcerer
Bard
Divine
Invoker
Cleric
Paladin
Avenger
Runepriest
Primal
Barbarian
Spirit Shaman
Warden
Seeker
Druid
Martial
Fighter
Rogue
Ranger
Warlord
Psionic
Ardent
Battlemind
Monk
Psion
Shadow
Assassin
Roles:
Defender:
Swordmage
Fighter
Paladin
Warden
Battlemind
Leader:
Bard
Cleric
Runepriest
Spirit Shaman
Warlord
Ardent
Striker:
Sorcerer
Warlock
Rogue
Ranger
Avenger
Barbarian
Assassin
Monk
Controller:
Wizard
Seeker
Druid
Invoker
Psion
Doesn't have to be a Barbarian necessarily (I have a Githzerai Avenger with one of those for instance courtesy of their racial blade mastery feat), and that wasn't really the point - Full Blades, Mauls, Greatswords, etc - those are all two-handed weapons. It makes sense that a character wielding a massive two-handed weapon is going to have a higher damage output at the expense of not having a hand free to equip/use other items.Naheal said:
My point was that there is a one-handed weapon that can provide that sort of damage output, albeit only 1-12 + strength/feat/item bonuses, rather than 2-12. Full Blades are pretty awesome though.
Altorin said:
acid, cold, fire, force, lightning, and radiant. I only have the first players handbook and all the classes have only three paragon paths so that's why I made one path for each area.HellsingerAngel said:
ya don't quite under stand that sentence could you word it differently. if I had the other players handbooks I would have properly ended up making a monk/sorcerer multi-class but I don't think it would have been quite what I was looking for and just meant I would be making the class later because I know what I wan't from this class and I don't think a monk/sorcerer multi-class would satisfy.
With your basic attack though, not counting any modifiers or conditional abilities like Sneak Attacks that rely on having combat advantage or surprise?Naheal said:
That was a suggestion to have one of your paragon paths, as a trait that it provides, grant the elimination of the -1 armor check penalty you incur for wearing Hide armor.nuba km said:
Multi-classing in 4th edition basically amounts to taking a feat that grants you certain class features and powers of another class, albeit at a less effective level than the original class would be, and you can later take additional feats to swap out existing powers with those of the class you took as your multi-class - if you don't take those additional feats though, a multi-class Cleric/Warlord will just be a cleric who can use the Warlord healing encounter power 1/day. The Hybrid class rules from the PH3 sounds like more what you'd want to use, as those essentially combine two classes together and you select powers from both as you build your character.
First off, nice to see people that like 4.0. Secondly, I am aware of this combination. However, these combinations limit your character overall. Either you choose to be a dwarf and get that +2 damage to gain proficiency, or you choose the proficiency feat to gain the ability to use the axe. Either way, you loose a feat, and possibly the freedom of choosing another race. This is acceptable for the trade-off of getting a robust weapon. The problem with giving a class 2-12 + strength with two-thirds being elemental damage at level one is that this is not restricted by anything but the need to use your unarmed attack. The reason why I compared it to the Monk is because he doesn't even get that sweet a deal. The dwarf fighter player has to give up the versatility of choice to gain power. Then again, that's what D&D is all about, sometimes. Again, my issue isn't so much the damage, it's the damage coupled with the option of still being completely versitile in race/feat/skill choice.Gildan Bladeborn said:
Now this is probably where you'll kick my ass in knowledge, but my understanding is that there are still creatures that have reducable or defeatable advantages through having a magical property weapon. My understanding by the text in the PHB3 is that the implament only gives the enhancement bonus and doesn't make the attacks the Monk deals counted as "magical". Correct me, please, if I'm wrong. If I am, so be it. If I'm not, well, just another issue to the list with this class.Gildan Bladeborn said:
Also, I'd just like to quickly correct you on the use of an implement. An implement enhances the bonus towards a class power. Because the monk can use items such as prayer beads and tombs of knowledge, a Monk can add his unarmed +3 proficiency bonus to any of his powers. However, disgrestion would warrent that, like most classes, you limit it to attacks with [W] in them. If I'm incorrect with this, I would appreciate a sitation so I can read the rule over. Thanks.
Guard it well!Gildan Bladeborn said:
EDIT:
O.Onuba km said:
Sorry, I couldn't help myself... I believe you mean radiant.
And I agree - not having to trade anything to get that sort of damage output is definitely overpowered, no arguments there.HellsingerAngel said:
I haven't exhaustively pored over the Monster Manuals for 4th Edition, but in my experience I've yet to encounter damage reduction that requires specific magical enhancement levels to overcome it and I haven't seen anything like that described - couldn't say if those are in there or not with my current knowledge.HellsingerAngel said:
However, whether or not the PH3 actually makes it clear or not, both the bonus to attack rolls and the damage bonus from a magical ki focus apply when you choose to focus your Monk Unarmed Strike through your ki focus, so says the official Wizards of the Coasts Character Creator (love that thing). I would guess this is how they balance out the bit where 4Ed Monks don't gain natural enhancements to their unarmed strikes anymore.
Weapons lose their proficiency bonus when you're using them as an implement; if they have a magical value you would still add that, but you lose any +2, +3 or what have you for being proficient with it when you're employing it as an implement (wizards wouldn't add the proficiency bonus of their quarterstaves if they choose to trigger magic missile through that for instance).HellsingerAngel said:
And pretty much every Monk attack power is classified as an Implement power, so while you are completely allowed to use your Monk Unarmed Strike class feature as your implement, the +3 weapon proficiency you get for making weapon attacks will not apply. And since your fists will never become inherently magical, the only way to increase your attack bonus with monk powers, besides a feat like Versatile or Weapon Expertise that increase your attack rolls with certain weapons/focuses[footnote]Why you'd use something other than Versatile is beyond me though, it's like Weapon Expertise only you pick two weapons/focuses.[/footnote] or simply raising your Dexterity, is to trigger your monk powers through a Magic Ki Focus item of some variety (this will also add damage), or use another magical weapon you have a proficiency with[footnote]You won't get the proficiency bonus of course, but you can use anything you're proficient with as an implement and if its magical and your fists aren't, it's an obvious choice[/footnote].
What that boils down to is any monk attack power you possess is going to have a lower attack bonus than your standard Monk Unarmed Strike will because it's missing the +3 proficiency bonus. The previous sentence is actually not true - Monk abilities all use Dexterity as the primary, while the Monk Unarmed Strike as a basic attack uses Strength[footnote]Unless you specifically change that via a feat to alter your basic attack attribute, but straight out of the box unarmed strike is keyed to strength.[/footnote], so in practice your attack values for a basic unarmed attack vs an attack power will be roughly equal or a bit lower depending on how you've built your character, and you'll probably do more damage with the power than the base attack as well (that depends, since monk attacks generally specify the damage rather than using [W], but your Dex Mod is still going to be higher than your Str Mod unless you're building a very... odd monk).
Take my 5th level Githzerai Monk for instance - he has a Strength of 16, and a Magic Ki Focus +1, and has taken Versatile Expertise and selected Unarmed as one of the two weapons. His Magic Ki-focused Monk Unarmed Strike therefore has an attack value of 10 [small](5 (mod +1/2 level), +3 proficiency, +1 Versatile Expertise, +1 Magic Ki Focus)[/small]. His monk powers, which all have the Implement keyword and use his Dexterity score of 20, have an attack bonus of 9 [small](7 (mod +1/2 level), +1 Versatile Expertise, +1 Magic Ki Focus)[/small].
Essentially that +3 proficiency bonus with the Unarmed Strike is balancing out the bit where monks tend to have lower strength than they do Dexterity - but that's all it's used for, as none of their powers are classified as Weapon powers (and since they technically don't require you to use your fists as the focus, my Githzerai actually uses his bastard sword for all his monk powers since he has a racial feat that adds +2 damage when using blades).
Indeed!HellsingerAngel said:
Combat advantage is one of the easiest things for a rogue to obtain. Flanking will generally give it to you, but other abilities (darkfire for a drow), indirect attacks (salt or sand in the eyes) and skill powers (insight and bluff) can grant combat advantage temporarily. Also, keep in mind that abilities such as sly flourish deal damage based off of dex and cha. Compound that with the backstabber feat (d8s for sneak attack) and a rapier (d8 base damage, light blade, superior weapon) and you can put out some pretty nasty damage that'll kill most targets in a couple rounds.Gildan Bladeborn said:
With a Sorc, every single attack that you have deals it's base damage plus cha and either dex or str, depending on what you took as your class feature. Since your second damage stat will always apply to your AC, it's a given that it'll be your 2nd highest stat. At first level, if your stats are stacked well enough, Acid Bolt (your basic ranged attack) can do 7-16 damage at first level (Dragonborn Sorcerer, dragon magic class feature, 14s put in Strength and Cha).
Don't know why but I think the idea of a "caste warrior" (note NOT caster)
Warriors who attune themselves with the elements to make them stronger.
Fire Caste, Wind Caste, etc
By the way, I don't play D&D so I have no idea if these names are similar to anything in it already.
Warriors who attune themselves with the elements to make them stronger.
Fire Caste, Wind Caste, etc
By the way, I don't play D&D so I have no idea if these names are similar to anything in it already.
You do realize what I'm talking about is just the weapon damage right, not the bonuses from your attributes/class features or the interplay of any skills or abilities, so I'm talking about attacks that do 1-12 points of damage before you add anything else to it.Naheal said:
If we're factoring in ability and skill bonuses then the fighter I was using as my example, as a level one character using a waraxe, would do 9-20 points of damage, or 11-22 damage whenever he has temporary hitpoints from Battlerager Vigor (which will be most of the time).[footnote]He does 12-23 (or 14-25 with temporary hitpoints) these days with that same at-will ability.[/footnote]
But that's irrelevant, because the entire reason I was discussing these ranges was to illustrate a point about weapon damage numbers, not the actual effective values in any given characters hands - things are always going to be higher with feats, conditions, teamwork, skill-use, class features, or what have you being applied. The hypothetical Rogue you brought up has a d8 rapier they had to take a feat to wield and not a d12 weapon they automatically have proficiency for precisely because that would be ridiculously overpowered once you add in all the other bonuses.
Class balance isn't that simple, though. In the case of a magic user, weapon damage is utterly worthless (In the above example, Acid Bolt does 1d10 damage with a range of 20 against Reflex. This is far more effective than a Greatbow, a superior weapon).Gildan Bladeborn said:
Let's take the Assassin class for a moment. They're fully capable of using a Full Blade for all attacks. Each round they may place a shroud upon a target (max of 4, single target only). At any time, they may unleash said shrouds to deal 1d6 points of additional damage per shroud. If the attack misses, you still deal 1d6 points of damage per shroud minus one (so, if you had 4 shrouds on a target, you will still deal 3d6 damage). Base damage before any modifiers is 5-36 damage once every four rounds. Bear in mind that shrouds work regardless of circumstances.
In the case of the above examples of the rogue, you can deal 3-24 base damage with any sneak attack. I have yet to see any target that can survive more than four of those at 5th level.
Nice, thanks for the info. There is one thing you neglected though and I would still like it if you could help direct me towards it.Gildan Bladeborn said:
Could you get me a citation for that? Even a book title and page number would do, simply because I'm not sure where to find that rule. I've been pouring over the PHB with every spare moment of my time (which hasn't been much today) and have yet to find it. I'd really appreciate the assistance.Gildan Bladeborn said:
Lawl, so nerdy. =PGildan Bladeborn said:
Well, you could just get something akin to a Bugbear Strangler and...Naheal said:
Yeah, rogues aren't going to be able to do that without having someone with them. They need combat advantage which they cannot consistantly get without someone to distract the opponent for them. Then you get into a 2v2 scenario and there are monster combinations that could easily just focus the Rogue first. All in all, your point is moot when you say "I can achieve X damage, but it's dependant upon a conditional set-up."
It's hardly inconsequential, as combat advantage doesn't require that much of a setup for a rogue, nor does it require a second party member (though the second party member does help).HellsingerAngel said:
Example combat:
Surprise round (if the rogue doesn't have surprise, they screwed up somewhere along the lines): Sneak attack.
1st round: Darkfire (if drow) or feint (bluff check vs insight). Sneak attack.
2nd round: feint (if drow) or anticipate maneuver (insight vs bluff check. Insight power). Sneak attack.
3rd round: Anticipate maneuver (if drow) or throw salt in the eyes (Will generally require a standard action). If drow, sneak attack.
4th round: If drow, throw salt in the eyes. If not, sneak attack from previous round.
5th round: If drow, sneak attack from previous round. If not, enter normal combat.
Do you mind citing your build and where you got each part? As much as I'd love to go through book after book searching for every miniscule feat and skill, considering that you're the one trying to argue your point you should be giving solid references so I can reference them and read the rules more easily.Naheal said:
On that note, feinting takes a standard action. Again, another reason why you need citation.
That will be difficult, as I don't personally own any of the 4th D&D sourcebooks, I'm just familiar with a lot of their content courtesy the Character Creator. Plus I explained it wrong/inaccurately just now - you don't need an implement to use powers with the Implement keyword, so if you're casting/using them with any other weapon then the stats of that item are irrelevant to the power - you only ever add a bonus if you have an implement and it's magical. Mages casting magic missile through a quarterstaff might as well be mages casting magic missile unarmed, there's no bonus or penalty either way - unless an item is on the list of valid implements your character is simply considered to be casting their implement powers without one.Naheal said:
But to answer somewhat helpfully - I would look in the initial class section under implement types. I don't think think there's an overarching rule about how those work so much as each class that can use implements has its own rule, depending on what qualifies as an implement - most classes with implement powers don't have weapons on their implement list, so there is no question of whether proficiency bonuses apply and no need for rules about how to deal with it; essentially its a system of governance by exception, and those exceptions should be listed under the individual class features' discussion of Implements. For instance, the Sorcerer's rules for implements state that while any Dagger can be used as an implement, you don't gain the dagger's proficiency bonus when you use it in this way.
The full text for monk implement use that appears in the class description in the character creater[footnote]Which, from what I've seen of the Players Handbooks, seems to be a direct lift from those texts so that is probably where you'd find this rule in the PH3.[/footnote] is as follows (skipping the initial part explaining what a Ki Focus is in the first place):
Basically you can use your fists or anything else you can wield as your implement for monk powers, but there's no particular benefit from doing so unless you have feats that increase the damage you deal or the attack rolls you make with that weapon type, or if that weapon has a specific magical property you'd like to employ (which your monk unarmed strike never will, as it can't be a magic item).
I'll get what I can up.HellsingerAngel said:
Anticipate Maneuver (PHB3, 171) is a skill power that takes the place of a utility power. Action required is minor. Battle Feint (PHB3, 166) does something similar with the bluff skill. Typical feint will be a standard action that would be separate from the Battle Feint power.
Drow (FRPG, 8) gain the Lolthtouched racial power, which allows the use of Cloud of Darkness or Darkfire. Darkfire is int, cha, or wis +4 vs Reflex which grants combat advantage to all attackers against the victim. Also, the victim loses benefit of invisibility or concealment until the end of your next turn. Action is minor.
Salt in the eyes would fall under the category of a basic attack with an improvised weapon. Salt, as it does no real damage to the target, would only temporarily blind a target, thus creating combat advantage.
Class Rogue
Race Drow
Level 2
S 10
D 18
C 11
I 14
W 13
CH 14
AC 17
Fort 11
Ref 17
Will 14
Weapons
Rapier (PHB, 218), +3 Prof, d8 damage, Light Blade
Hand Crossbow (PHB, 219) +2 Prof, d6 damage, 10/20 range, Crossbow
Armor
Leather Armor
Skills
Stealth, Thievery, Perception, Insight, Bluff, Acrobatics
Feats
Weapon Proficiency (Rapier), Skill Power (PHB 3, 183)
Class Features: Cunning Sneak Rogue Talent (Martial Power 2, 56), Sharpshooter Talent (Martial Power 2, 56)
At will
Gloaming Cut (Martial Power 2, 57). +8 to hit AC. 5-12 damage. Effect: You can shift a number of squares equal to your intelligence modifier and make a stealth check to become hidden.
Sly Flourish (Player?s Handbook, 118). +8 to hit AC. 7-14 damage (1[w]+dex+cha)
Encounter
Shadow Strike (Martial Power 2, 59). +9 to hit AC. Melee or Ranged. 5-12 melee, 5-10 ranged (1[w]+dex). If you were hidden when you made this attack, you can make a stealth check to remain hidden.
Daily
Checking Jab (Martial Power, 74). +8 to hit AC. Melee only. 5-12 melee and the target is slowed (save ends). You have combat advantage while the target is slowed. Miss half damage and the target isn?t slowed.
Utility
Battle Feint (PHB3, 166)
Anticipate Maneuver (PHB3, 171)
Race Drow
Level 2
S 10
D 18
C 11
I 14
W 13
CH 14
AC 17
Fort 11
Ref 17
Will 14
Weapons
Rapier (PHB, 218), +3 Prof, d8 damage, Light Blade
Hand Crossbow (PHB, 219) +2 Prof, d6 damage, 10/20 range, Crossbow
Armor
Leather Armor
Skills
Stealth, Thievery, Perception, Insight, Bluff, Acrobatics
Feats
Weapon Proficiency (Rapier), Skill Power (PHB 3, 183)
Class Features: Cunning Sneak Rogue Talent (Martial Power 2, 56), Sharpshooter Talent (Martial Power 2, 56)
At will
Gloaming Cut (Martial Power 2, 57). +8 to hit AC. 5-12 damage. Effect: You can shift a number of squares equal to your intelligence modifier and make a stealth check to become hidden.
Sly Flourish (Player?s Handbook, 118). +8 to hit AC. 7-14 damage (1[w]+dex+cha)
Encounter
Shadow Strike (Martial Power 2, 59). +9 to hit AC. Melee or Ranged. 5-12 melee, 5-10 ranged (1[w]+dex). If you were hidden when you made this attack, you can make a stealth check to remain hidden.
Daily
Checking Jab (Martial Power, 74). +8 to hit AC. Melee only. 5-12 melee and the target is slowed (save ends). You have combat advantage while the target is slowed. Miss half damage and the target isn?t slowed.
Utility
Battle Feint (PHB3, 166)
Anticipate Maneuver (PHB3, 171)