D&D players I need your help making a class and naming it

[HellsingerAngel]

I'll get what I can up.

Anticipate Maneuver (PHB3, 171) is a skill power that takes the place of a utility power. Action required is minor. Battle Feint (PHB3, 166) does something similar with the bluff skill. Typical feint will be a standard action that would be separate from the Battle Feint power.

Drow (FRPG, 8) gain the Lolthtouched racial power, which allows the use of Cloud of Darkness or Darkfire. Darkfire is int, cha, or wis +4 vs Reflex which grants combat advantage to all attackers against the victim. Also, the victim loses benefit of invisibility or concealment until the end of your next turn. Action is minor.

Salt in the eyes would fall under the category of a basic attack with an improvised weapon. Salt, as it does no real damage to the target, would only temporarily blind a target, thus creating combat advantage.

Thanks. Now I can get a better feel for this.

Round 0- Really, on all accounts, I'm not sure how players should "always get a surprise round". Most combat happens on even terms in 4.0 because monsters should have at least one spoter, much like any party will have one. On a one on one fight, this is even more likely.

Round 1- Darkfire gives one round round of combat advantage for a minor action.

Round 2- Anticipate Maneuver will grant another two rounds of combat advantage; the current round and then the following round. Sneak attack will follow.

Round 3- Another Sneak attack before the round ends.

Round 4- Decision time. The Rogue can either attempt an opposed bluff check vs. insight with a feint attempt, loosing an attack action for the round to get combat advantage the next round, or fight normally. Combat continues until one side wins.

Now, there are a few things I need to go over here with my explination of what happens, particularly some misconceptions and omissions. First is the Battle Feint encounter power. Here's the description of the effect:

Effect: You make a Bluff check opposed by the target's passive Insight check. If the check succeeds, one ally adjacent to you gains combat advantage against the target for that ally's next attack against it before the end of your next turn.

Obviously you can't use that to any advantage to your own Rogue's damage, so I left it out. The second is the salt. Seeing as this is more of a house rule than an official rule, I omitted it. If there was some sort of official ruling within the books that said "salt can be used as a standard action to blind your target and gain combast advantage" then sure, I'd count it. Unfortunately there is none and it is simply a house rule you put into place.

Alright, now we need to look at the math of the build. Considering we need to use basic attacks to make this a fair comparison, I'll use that and the double 14s you gave in terms of what sort of statstics we're looking at.

We already know that the character has to be level two because of the feat choices and need for a utility power, so already we're bending the rules a little. This effectively gives the character two feat choices: Weapon Proficiency: Rapier and Backstabber. So the stats are starting to look a little like this:

Attack- +4 vs AC, 1d8 + 2d6 + 2 = 5-22

Now, using the average amount of damage, which comes to 13.5, and going over the three rounds you get sneak attack on, that equates to 40.5 damage over the three rounds.

Now, using the same strength statistic for the waraxe fighter we get an average damage of 7-20 you get *drum roll* 13.5 damage! So, the same ends are achieved through a lot less hassle, less abilities used and at half the level of the rogue! (level 1 versus level 2)

Not as great as you think, huh?

 

[Naheal]

Thanks. Now I can get a better feel for this.

Round 0- Really, on all accounts, I'm not sure how players should "always get a surprise round". Most combat happens on even terms in 4.0 because monsters should have at least one spoter, much like any party will have one. On a one on one fight, this is even more likely.

Round 1- Darkfire gives one round round of combat advantage for a minor action.

Round 2- Anticipate Maneuver will grant another two rounds of combat advantage; the current round and then the following round. Sneak attack will follow.

Round 3- Another Sneak attack before the round ends.

Round 4- Decision time. The Rogue can either attempt an opposed bluff check vs. insight with a feint attempt, loosing an attack action for the round to get combat advantage the next round, or fight normally. Combat continues until one side wins.

Now, there are a few things I need to go over here with my explination of what happens, particularly some misconceptions and omissions. First is the Battle Feint encounter power. Here's the description of the effect:

Effect: You make a Bluff check opposed by the target's passive Insight check. If the check succeeds, one ally adjacent to you gains combat advantage against the target for that ally's next attack against it before the end of your next turn.

Obviously you can't use that to any advantage to your own Rogue's damage, so I left it out. The second is the salt. Seeing as this is more of a house rule than an official rule, I omitted it. If there was some sort of official ruling within the books that said "salt can be used as a standard action to blind your target and gain combast advantage" then sure, I'd count it. Unfortunately there is none and it is simply a house rule you put into place.

Alright, now we need to look at the math of the build. Considering we need to use basic attacks to make this a fair comparison, I'll use that and the double 14s you gave in terms of what sort of statstics we're looking at.

We already know that the character has to be level two because of the feat choices and need for a utility power, so already we're bending the rules a little. This effectively gives the character two feat choices: Weapon Proficiency: Rapier and Backstabber. So the stats are starting to look a little like this:

Attack- +4 vs AC, 1d8 + 2d6 + 2 = 5-22

Now, using the average amount of damage, which comes to 13.5, and going over the three rounds you get sneak attack on, that equates to 40.5 damage over the three rounds.

Now, using the same strength statistic for the waraxe fighter we get an average damage of 7-20 you get *drum roll* 13.5 damage! So, the same ends are achieved through a lot less hassle, less abilities used and at half the level of the rogue! (level 1 versus level 2)

Not as great as you think, huh?

Round 0: A rogue has stealth as a base skill. If they've lost their advantage there, they screwed up, as surprise is something that rogues do best and capitalize on.

Round 1: Darkfire can be used prior to the attack in that round. Sneak attack can be calculated for two rounds.

Round 2: Sneak attack for previous Darkfire use.

Round 3: I hadn't noted that Anticipate Maneuver worked for 2 rounds (essentially, it's a second darkfire). Sneak attack can be calculated here and in round 4

Round 4: Second sneak attack from Anticipate Maneuver.

Round 5: Bluff can be done to feint this turn, otherwise normal combat can commence.

Note that I included a full character build (I should change a feat at 2nd level to eliminate the Skill Power feat and include backstabber.

Also, note that the damage range would be 1d8(weapon)+2d8(sneak attack with Backstabber, PHB 194)+2=5-26. Average damage would result in 15.5.

For a waraxe fighter, you'll be looking at 1d12(weapon)+2=3-15. I'm curious as to where you picked up the 7-20 damage average for a fighter at 1st level.

 

[nuba km]

snip

I am now confused I knew what the beginning of this argument weather you were right or wrong about my starting attack being overpowered or not. now it seems to be an argument about how much damage a rouge could deal at level 1. from what I have seen from naheal and Gildan Bladeborn the basic attack doesn't seem overpowered strong yes but not over powered could you explain in layman terms what the arguments so far have resulted in please.

 

[HellsingerAngel]

snip

I am now confused I knew what the beginning of this argument weather you were right or wrong about my starting attack being overpowered or not. now it seems to be an argument about how much damage a rouge could deal at level 1. from what I have seen from naheal and Gildan Bladeborn the basic attack doesn't seem overpowered strong yes but not over powered could you explain in layman terms what the arguments so far have resulted in please.

A really bad tangent. Also, the starting attack power of your clasds is still to high, as discussed previously, because you sacrifice nothing in order to gain that large advantage, Both of the other suposed classes sacrifice race choices, as well as feat choices to obtain their high base damage.

 

[nuba km]

snip

I am now confused I knew what the beginning of this argument weather you were right or wrong about my starting attack being overpowered or not. now it seems to be an argument about how much damage a rouge could deal at level 1. from what I have seen from naheal and Gildan Bladeborn the basic attack doesn't seem overpowered strong yes but not over powered could you explain in layman terms what the arguments so far have resulted in please.

A really bad tangent. Also, the starting attack power of your clasds is still to high, as discussed previously, because you sacrifice nothing in order to gain that large advantage, Both of the other suposed classes sacrifice race choices, as well as feat choices to obtain their high base damage.

OK thanks for explaining. would you say making the elemental damage a four sided dice (meaning it will be 2-8) damage would be fair.