D&D Shape Change Vs. Time Stop?

[DarklordKyo]

I was considering a JoJo's Bizarre Adventure-inspired build for a cleric in D&D, and I remembered that idea could potentially be rolled into my Valor Bard. Basically, instead of getting him Swift Quiver and higher Dex (his physical damage stat) ASAP, I could prioritize Charisma (his spellcasting stat), and get him Spirit Guardian to use as a Stand.

The thing is that, I figure, might as well go all out and get Time Stop to throw in some Za Warudo jokes. On the other hand, I could also get Shape Change, and, if he ends up seeing one, I could use it to break encounters by turning into a dragon.

For any more experienced D&D nerds, which should I go for?, Time Stop or Shape Change?

Also, should I get Swift Quiver & max DEX to maximize my crossbow damage?, or should I get Spirit Guardian & max CHA because of possible DoTs & AoE?

To help things along, this is what I have so far: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByAW86pWuT_Zc0dPeE9yRUxacW8

 

[Aerosteam]

Time stop + crossbow sounds super strong. Though if it's literally ZA WARUDO those 9 seconds will be spent reloading.

 

[DarklordKyo]

Time stop + crossbow sounds super strong. Though if it's literally ZA WARUDO those 9 seconds will be spent reloading.

I have Crossbow Expert, which allows me to skip reloading. Also, and I'm sure there's a way to creatively bullshit my way to maximizing it, upon further reading, time starts again when a non-me creature is affected by something.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

I only have Neverwinter Nights experience in this so it may be different for you.

Time Stop is the more practical spell, but Shape Change is one of the funnest spells. Ever. Nothing can really beat transforming yourself into a full-fledged red fucking dragon and proceeding to beat the shit out of everyone. I've seen a lot of spells since then, but that one was one of the most awesome I've seen, hand's down.

If you're looking for pure damage though, just Time Stop and then spam a bunch of Isaac's Greater Missile Storms.

Neverwinter Nights really just has a superb spell selection in general though.

 

[Souplex]

5E Time Stop is incredibly limited to prevent abuse.
https://www.dnd-spells.com/spell/time-stop
The moment you try and interact with anything stopped, the spell ends.
"This spell ends if one of the actions you use during this period, or any effects that you create during this period, affects a creature other than you or an object being worn or carried by someone other than you. In addition, the spell ends if you move to a place more than 1,000 feet from the location where you cast it."
https://www.dnd-spells.com/spell/shapechange

 

[DarklordKyo]

5E Time Stop is incredibly limited to prevent abuse.
https://www.dnd-spells.com/spell/time-stop
The moment you try and interact with anything stopped, the spell ends.
"This spell ends if one of the actions you use during this period, or any effects that you create during this period, affects a creature other than you or an object being worn or carried by someone other than you. In addition, the spell ends if you move to a place more than 1,000 feet from the location where you cast it."
https://www.dnd-spells.com/spell/shapechange

Fair enough, what about Swift Quiver Vs. Spirit Guardian?, putting my intended spec & weapon choice into account.

 

[Souplex]

5E Time Stop is incredibly limited to prevent abuse.
https://www.dnd-spells.com/spell/time-stop
The moment you try and interact with anything stopped, the spell ends.
"This spell ends if one of the actions you use during this period, or any effects that you create during this period, affects a creature other than you or an object being worn or carried by someone other than you. In addition, the spell ends if you move to a place more than 1,000 feet from the location where you cast it."
https://www.dnd-spells.com/spell/shapechange

Fair enough, what about Swift Quiver Vs. Spirit Guardian?, putting my intended spec & weapon choice into account.

You get TWO magical secrets at level 10.
Swift Quiver is for machine-gunning from a distance.
Spirit Guardians is for wading into mobs of enemies.

 

[DarklordKyo]

You get TWO magical secrets at level 10.
Swift Quiver is for machine-gunning from a distance.
Spirit Guardians is for wading into mobs of enemies.

Because I'm considering getting Fireball for one of them, have a nice combo with Battle Magic, that, or Banishing Smite.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

5E Time Stop is incredibly limited to prevent abuse.
https://www.dnd-spells.com/spell/time-stop
The moment you try and interact with anything stopped, the spell ends.

Still, Time Stop is a 9th.

And since the OP is a Cleric who can use it, that means he probably has access to 9 whole spell levels of Cleric casting. Even with the restrictions on 5e Time Stop, having what is essentially on average 3-4 rounds of free & uncontested casting gives you many, many incredibly nasty options without ever having to trip the restrictions, yet will make your DM regret the day he allowed Time Stop to even exist in his campaign.

Shapechange, again a 9th, is arguably even more powerful. Changing into any creature you've seen once with a CR equal or lower than your own? In the hands of someone experienced, that is outright broken. There is a reason why this spell was considered pure cheese in the 3.x era to the point of outright being banned by many DMs and the 5e version doesn't seem toned down enough for it to matter.

9ths, even nerfed compared to their 3.x incarnations, break campaigns in the hands of a savvy player.

 

[Souplex]

You get TWO magical secrets at level 10.
Swift Quiver is for machine-gunning from a distance.
Spirit Guardians is for wading into mobs of enemies.

Because I'm considering getting Fireball for one of them, have a nice combo with Battle Magic, that, or Banishing Smite.

If you only want Fireball to combo with battle magic, use your level 14 secrets on it.

5E Time Stop is incredibly limited to prevent abuse.
https://www.dnd-spells.com/spell/time-stop
The moment you try and interact with anything stopped, the spell ends.

Still, Time Stop is a 9th.

And since the OP is a Cleric who can use it, that means he probably has access to 9 whole spell levels of Cleric casting. Even with the restrictions on 5e Time Stop, having what is essentially on average 3-4 rounds of free & uncontested casting gives you many, many incredibly nasty options without ever having to trip the restrictions, yet will make your DM regret the day he allowed Time Stop to even exist in his campaign.

1. He's a Bard not a cleric, read the OP again.
2. That's where concentration comes in. Most spells that have durations required concentration. Time stop is an exception to that.
You can only have one concentration spell active at a time. This means you can't stop time, buff up, set the battlefield and then go.

 

[Rpground]

Honestly? Shape Shifting is WAAAAAAAAAAAY more fun then Time Stop. I mean...it's just boring by comparison. Yeah, Time Stop is more powerful...but when you compare that to TURNING INTO A FUCK OFF DRAGON, just...there's practicality and then there's rule of cool.

 

[DarklordKyo]

Honestly? Shape Shifting is WAAAAAAAAAAAY more fun then Time Stop. I mean...it's just boring by comparison. Yeah, Time Stop is more powerful...but when you compare that to TURNING INTO A FUCK OFF DRAGON, just...there's practicality and then there's rule of cool.

The ability to turn into a dragon is why I considered Shapechange. Thing us that it's possible, if unlikely, that I never run into a dragon until then.

 

[DarklordKyo]

If you only want Fireball to combo with battle magic, use your level 14 secrets on it.

Cool, thoughts on Banishing Smite?

Also, there's the fact that both Spirit Guardian and Swift Quiver are concentrations. I can only use one concentration at a time, so I'd be choosing between versatility & aoe, & raw dps and not needing to be within 15 feet.

 

[Souplex]

If you only want Fireball to combo with battle magic, use your level 14 secrets on it.

Cool, thoughts on Banishing Smite?

I used it for the first time on my Paladin last night. (remember kids: Ser Keros Ahlorsath says "Ztond und ze vay of Justeece, I ztand und your neck.")
I like Banishing Smite, but without the ability to layer it onto a Divine Smite I feel it loses something. That said, The rider effect is HP based not save based so if you want to take that troublesome mage out of the fight it is useful. That said, the banish only triggers at 50 HP and under. At that point how much longer is it going to be a threat when you can throw around 5th level magic?
Also unclear to me is whether you need to concentrate to keep outsiders banished, or if you can free your concentration up for other things.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

1. He's a Bard not a cleric, read the OP again.
2. That's where concentration comes in. Most spells that have durations required concentration. Time stop is an exception to that.
You can only have one concentration spell active at a time. This means you can't stop time, buff up, set the battlefield and then go.

1. Meh, replace with Bard casting then. Still 9 levels of spellcasting, including some real doozies.
2. So? Still leaves plenty of fun things to do. I stand by my statement that getting several free rounds of casting (or really just actions in general) is incredibly nasty in the hands of a savvy player, despite all restrictions.

 

[DarklordKyo]

Also unclear to me is whether you need to concentrate to keep outsiders banished, or if you can free your concentration up for other things.

I was told that the banishment was the concentration. Also, what about the other points I added to that post?

 

[sXeth]

I only have Neverwinter Nights experience in this so it may be different for you.

Time Stop is the more practical spell, but Shape Change is one of the funnest spells. Ever. Nothing can really beat transforming yourself into a full-fledged red fucking dragon and proceeding to beat the shit out of everyone. I've seen a lot of spells since then, but that one was one of the most awesome I've seen, hand's down.

If you're looking for pure damage though, just Time Stop and then spam a bunch of Isaac's Greater Missile Storms.

Neverwinter Nights really just has a superb spell selection in general though.

Mods that allowed casting in shapeshifted form (and other forms for that matter) were a grand thing.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Mods that allowed casting in shapeshifted form (and other forms for that matter) were a grand thing.

Neverwinter Nights itself was a grand thing. Hopefully Divinity: Original Sin 2 will be the NWN2 we should have gotten.

 

[DarklordKyo]

Neverwinter Nights itself was a grand thing. Hopefully Divinity: Original Sin 2 will be the NWN2 we should have gotten.

Even if it's not as good as the first, isn't NWN2 generally considered pretty good in general?

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Neverwinter Nights itself was a grand thing. Hopefully Divinity: Original Sin 2 will be the NWN2 we should have gotten.

Even if it's not as good as the first, isn't NWN2 generally considered pretty good in general?

I heard Mask of the Betrayer had a great storyline, but that was about it. It's buggy, TERRIBLY optimized and it's even missing a few things.