DA:O and Orzammar (warning contains spoilers)

[ZtH]

Alright, so I was playing through DA:O for the first time recently and just got to Orzammar. The main plot element in Orzammar seems to be that you have to choose between supporting Brehlen the prince, or Lord Hsomethingthatiforget. While exploring the city you find a slum where the casteless dwarves are left, and even find a noble who believes the caste system is flawed. Why can you not, given this information, choose to recruit the casteless and use them to help fight the darkspawn? Or failing that why can't you help that noble topple the caste system and allow the dwarves to choose for themselves whether they wish to aid you?

Of course I realize this is likely beyond the limitations of the game, and would likely require a game in and of itself to accomplish all these options, but wouldn't it be damn cool if you could do this?

Lastly, for the discussion value, what would you have done being presented with the situation in Orzammar if you weren't hindered by the games rules? How would you go about recruiting for the Gray Wardens? Would you enjoy a game that was all about toppling a government and manipulating the public to aid you in fighting the hordes of darkness?

 

[Altorin]

it would make sense from a gameplay standpoint, but a clanless would honestly probably never survive dwarven politics. They'd be killed and forgotten. You haven't finished the game so you haven't seen your actions consequences in Orzammar through the ending scroll, but let's just say Orzammar is a brutally political place where a clanless would never survive.

 

[PseudoDuck]

The casteless aren't a fully-equipped Dwarven army. Why would I want them helping me against the darkspawn? The treaties you have promise help from the different races, so that's what you use. Why would the dwarves even help otherwise?

I didn't like either candidate, but I went with the Lord rather than the Prince, simply because the Prince was a bastard when I played through the Dwarf Noble Origin and I never forgave him in any playthrough (even though I wasn't a dwarf).

And trying to remove the centuries old caste system, while a darkspawn horde led by an Archdemon are on your doorstep - hardly the best use of a Grey Warden's time. Let King Alistair give Democracy to the Dwarves when the Blight has been defeated. That's if he can tear himself away from his sexy Warden Commander Queen.


OT: What's the Orzammar part like if you're the exiled Dwarf Noble? Can't imagine your brother gives you a welcoming reception.

 

[Sniper Team 4]

Well, depending on who you support for King, you end up doing exactly that--just indirectly. Orzammar was the only hard choice I had to make in Dragon Age: Origins, because there is no obvious "good" choice where everyone wins, unlike the Circle, Elves, and Redcliff.

What I would have done in Orzammar is gotten the hell out and never looked back. The place is not a good place to live, whether a noble or a castless. I wouldn't do anything different in recruiting the Wardens' aid, because those treaties that everyone signed are good enough. Plus, I'd pull the whole, "Okay, call me when the Darkspawn have completely wiped out your people and culture," card on them.

 

[ZtH]

The casteless aren't a fully-equipped Dwarven army. Why would I want them helping me against the darkspawn? The treaties you have promise help from the different races, so that's what you use. Why would the dwarves even help otherwise?

Better than no one?

I didn't like either candidate, but I went with the Lord rather than the Prince, simply because the Prince was a bastard when I played through the Dwarf Noble Origin and I never forgave him in any playthrough (even though I wasn't a dwarf).

That's what I'm in the process of doing. At least the Lord's missions are somewhat legal.

And trying to remove the centuries old caste system, while a darkspawn horde led by an Archdemon are on your doorstep - hardly the best use of a Grey Warden's time. Let King Alistair give Democracy to the Dwarves when the Blight has been defeated. That's if he can tear himself away from his sexy Warden Commander Queen.

Since you're forced to spend the time resolving their internal conflict anyway, why not back a candidate that would ultimately help the people there. I mean it's not like you couldn't enter the proving on behalf of that noble.

OT: What's the Orzammar part like if you're the exiled Dwarf Noble? Can't imagine your brother gives you a welcoming reception.

That's going to be my next playthrough. I can't wait to see if it actually affects the outcome.

 

[Scizophrenic Llama]

You'd pretty much be destroying an entire culture in attempting to cause such a major change. Dwarves are stubborn bastards, which is pretty much the only reason the Orzammar quest takes so damn long in the first place. You also have the blight to calm and so going about trying to fix such an old practice by the Dwarves would take far longer.

You'd be killed by darkspawn before you'd ever get the chance to really put any change to Orzammar.

I'd do as I did before, help diffuse the king situation and get my army of dwarves. Warden's aren't supposed to assist in politics in the first place.

 

[manythings]

The grey wardens don't meddle in internal politics because they're concerned with the Darkspawn. The Caste system and dwarven societies issues are issues for the dwarves.

 

[Vulg]

The grey wardens don't meddle in internal politics because they're concerned with the Darkspawn. The Caste system and dwarven societies issues are issues for the dwarves.

Pretty much this. Though if you want to help them, despite being an unlikable asshole, Bhelen tries to move the dwarves forward and stop the caste nonsense.

 

[ZtH]

The grey wardens don't meddle in internal politics because they're concerned with the Darkspawn. The Caste system and dwarven societies issues are issues for the dwarves.

But by the very nature of the quests there you're already meddling. This is just a matter of taking it slightly further. Or if you take the recruiting the clanless route you'd be meddling far less than before, though with a weakened army because of it.

it would make sense from a gameplay standpoint, but a clanless would honestly probably never survive dwarven politics. They'd be killed and forgotten. You haven't finished the game so you haven't seen your actions consequences in Orzammar through the ending scroll, but let's just say Orzammar is a brutally political place where a clanless would never survive.

Well the guy who advocates removing the clan system is actually a noble, house Helmi I believe. I can certainly agree with Orzammar being a brutal place since the response to fighting Loghain's messenger was pretty much "Try not to get blood on my shoes or bodies in my way" and was followed by "Hey, thanks for getting rid of him he was annoying."

 

[manythings]

The grey wardens don't meddle in internal politics because they're concerned with the Darkspawn. The Caste system and dwarven societies issues are issues for the dwarves.

But by the very nature of the quests there you're already meddling. This is just a matter of taking it slightly further. Or if you take the recruiting the clanless route you'd be meddling far less than before, though with a weakened army because of it.

You're getting the Dwarves moving to kill the darkspawn rather than each other. You're trying to prevent a civil war not start one. The Wardens do what they have to to stop the Blight, whatever it takes, Blood Magic, demons, their lives and souls if that's what it takes.

 

[ZtH]

The grey wardens don't meddle in internal politics because they're concerned with the Darkspawn. The Caste system and dwarven societies issues are issues for the dwarves.

But by the very nature of the quests there you're already meddling. This is just a matter of taking it slightly further. Or if you take the recruiting the clanless route you'd be meddling far less than before, though with a weakened army because of it.

You're getting the Dwarves moving to kill the darkspawn rather than each other. You're trying to prevent a civil war not start one. The Wardens do what they have to to stop the Blight, whatever it takes, Blood Magic, demons, their lives and souls if that's what it takes.

That's how I'm trying to play my character this time through, but it seemed like nobody would care if you just took all the population of Dust Town and brought them to fight the darkspawn. As the Shaper says "They're not recorded in the Shaperate, they don't exist as far as we're concerned." Wouldn't it be good to have even that small amount of extra help to fight the darkspawn?

 

[manythings]

The grey wardens don't meddle in internal politics because they're concerned with the Darkspawn. The Caste system and dwarven societies issues are issues for the dwarves.

But by the very nature of the quests there you're already meddling. This is just a matter of taking it slightly further. Or if you take the recruiting the clanless route you'd be meddling far less than before, though with a weakened army because of it.

You're getting the Dwarves moving to kill the darkspawn rather than each other. You're trying to prevent a civil war not start one. The Wardens do what they have to to stop the Blight, whatever it takes, Blood Magic, demons, their lives and souls if that's what it takes.

That's how I'm trying to play my character this time through, but it seemed like nobody would care if you just took all the population of Dust Town and brought them to fight the darkspawn. As the Shaper says "They're not recorded in the Shaperate, they don't exist as far as we're concerned." Wouldn't it be good to have even that small amount of extra help to fight the darkspawn?

But to fight you have to be a member of the Warrior caste. Would you try to take beggars and thieves in the place of a standing army? With the dwarves you're getting one or the other.

 

[Spacewolf]

One of the choices does just that by abolishing the duster caste, obviously it takes time though if you led a bloody uprising the dwarfs just wouldnt be able to help you at all much less defend themselves when the blight was defeated

 

[ZtH]

But to fight you have to be a member of the Warrior caste. Would you try to take beggars and thieves in the place of a standing army? With the dwarves you're getting one or the other.

Well seeing as how scary the carta is... Just kidding with that one. But the only other argument to make for using the casteless is the time it takes to recruit them vs the time it takes to avert the dwarven civil war, and the level of interference related to each. I was also slightly disappointed in the lack of Chaotic Neutral options involved such as killing one of the candidates and then requesting the aid after. If we're going with the "do whatever it takes" mentality the death of one noble perhaps +his entire house or the world seems a rather easy choice. I just wish they had more options in Orzammar. There seemed to be several different solutions that might have worked, though I do agree that you've pretty well refuted two of them. I think Orzammar as a setting had a LOT that could be done with it, that maybe was there and didn't make the final cut or that was cut due to budget/production issues. Hmm perhaps I'll have to run a tabletop game set in Orzammar. My issue is that I saw a lot of potential for a really open ended situation and thought it would be cool if they could have explored it.

 

[ZtH]

One of the choices does just that by abolishing the duster caste, obviously it takes time though if you led a bloody uprising the dwarfs just wouldnt be able to help you at all much less defend themselves when the blight was defeated

I wasn't saying a bloody uprising, I was talking more along the lines of supporting a different noble candidate aside from those two, who would try to do that for the Dwarven people. I mean why wouldn't it be feasible to champion a third candidate in the Proving? Whoever wins is correct before the ancestors after all. It's pretty cool to hear that there is an option that helps that happen, but are they utilized in the fight against the darkspawn? Because that would make that political victory all the sweeter.

 

[manythings]

But to fight you have to be a member of the Warrior caste. Would you try to take beggars and thieves in the place of a standing army? With the dwarves you're getting one or the other.

Well seeing as how scary the carta is... Just kidding with that one. But the only other argument to make for using the casteless is the time it takes to recruit them vs the time it takes to avert the dwarven civil war, and the level of interference related to each. I was also slightly disappointed in the lack of Chaotic Neutral options involved such as killing one of the candidates and then requesting the aid after. If we're going with the "do whatever it takes" mentality the death of one noble perhaps +his entire house or the world seems a rather easy choice. I just wish they had more options in Orzammar. There seemed to be several different solutions that might have worked, though I do agree that you've pretty well refuted two of them. I think Orzammar as a setting had a LOT that could be done with it, that maybe was there and didn't make the final cut or that was cut due to budget/production issues. Hmm perhaps I'll have to run a tabletop game set in Orzammar. My issue is that I saw a lot of potential for a really open ended situation and thought it would be cool if they could have explored it.

The problem with just eliminating one family or the other is that you're literally hacking at the history of Orzammar. You might aswell just stroll into the shaperate and start smashing shit. You're still an outsider and the hoops you jump through are getting you closer to getting what you need, killing everyone is a pretty iffy gamble. The Aeducan's are the descendants of a Paragon so killing them would turn Harrowmount against you, while Bhelen is a pragmatist and he'd leave you out in the cold (If you're lucky) if he couldn't trust you to leave him be once you had what you wanted.

 

[the_pleasure_is_mine]

The casteless aren't a fully-equipped Dwarven army. Why would I want them helping me against the darkspawn? The treaties you have promise help from the different races, so that's what you use. Why would the dwarves even help otherwise?

I didn't like either candidate, but I went with the Lord rather than the Prince, simply because the Prince was a bastard when I played through the Dwarf Noble Origin and I never forgave him in any playthrough (even though I wasn't a dwarf).

And trying to remove the centuries old caste system, while a darkspawn horde led by an Archdemon are on your doorstep - hardly the best use of a Grey Warden's time. Let King Alistair give Democracy to the Dwarves when the Blight has been defeated. That's if he can tear himself away from his sexy Warden Commander Queen.


OT: What's the Orzammar part like if you're the exiled Dwarf Noble? Can't imagine your brother gives you a welcoming reception.

The city guard attempt to stop you re-entering the city, but since you're a Grey Warden they can't do anything, you can still back your brother if you want.

Also, it's interesting, Bhelen is a bastard, however I would say his 'epilogue scroll' is actually far better than Harrowmonts...

Edit: also you get an interesting surprise and extra side quest :3

 

[ZtH]

The city guard attempt to stop you re-entering the city, but since you're a Grey Warden they can't do anything, you can still back your brother if you want.

Also, it's interesting, Bhelen is a bastard, however I would say his 'epilogue scroll' is actually far better than Harrowmonts...

I think it's pretty cool that they have managed to put in an actually grey moral choice on this one. The means that Bhelen uses are way shadier, but what he does with the power does seem to be better. I respect Bioware for not really giving it all one way or all the other on this one.

 

[Shoggoth2588]

my last campaign in DA:O I was playing a Dwarven Nobel so I sided with Harrowmont by sheer virtue of vengeance (the origin story being about Behlan betraying me by making me think my other brother was trying to kill me: I kill brother three and Bahlan has you exiled)

Anyway, I went against Behlan and, being a nobel at heart, would have chosen to leave the Casteless where they be. It would be interesting to try to bring the Casteless into power but it would have been one hell of an undertaking seeing as how the Drawven society is so steeped in tradition. Honestly though, I hated Orzammar and loved when it was finally over. Why? Because of the Deep Roads and all of those damned Golems...and the Broodmother...

 

[dancinginfernal]

Looking back, as much of a douche as Bhelen was he did supply the change required for the casteless to get a chance to live well. Something to shake Orzammar and bring them to their senses.