Daikatana- The concept only.

[DigitalAtlas]

After watching today's episode of Extra Creditz, I started reminicing to a game that actually tried to merge the elements of Japanese culture with Western gaming popularity. This game was called Daikatana, developed at Ion Storm by John Romero. After some shitty advertising and, what I believe was five years worth of delays, the game release. For those who don't know, it was utter shit. The textures were awful, the story was boring, level design was unnecessarily confusing, and the action was beyond dull.

However, that's not what I'm wondering about. What I am opening up for discussion is whether or not this type of game should be attempted again, or if it has without my knowledge.

Honestly, I'd love to see John Romero try this again. Just not with the same title. He's obviously competent, he just had a serious fuck up. However, a game that combined all these cultures could easily be a masterpiece.

Opinions?

Yes, I purposely left this brief.

 

[bombadilillo]

What was so bad about the game? I hear about it being legendarily bad. I vaguely remember renting if for N64 but I got stuck at a monistary or something? I almost want to play it now.... talk me out of it.

 

[DigitalAtlas]

What was so bad about the game? I hear about it being legendarily bad. I vaguely remember renting if for N64 but I got stuck at a monistary or something? I almost want to play it now.... talk me out of it.

The concept of the game was promising- JRPG element and Japanese culture combining with the shooting of Western games like Quake.

However, the first cutscene was 40 minutes long, all the enemies are tiny, hit detection is god awful, the AI are more retarded than anything you can ever imagine, and the graphics were worse than that of GoldenEye. Note, this released in 2000 running an advanced engine.

Still, the premise is what intrigues me most.

 

[Netrigan]

It was like American manga. Had some of the surface trappings, but not really very Eastern.

But, yeah, the game was pretty awful. The teammate AI was horrible and you needed them to complete levels and they died very easily on obstacles. They had some strange save system that proved unpopular. Damn thing was filled with all sorts of tiny creatures that were a chore to fight.

Didn't think it looked that bad. Dated because of the long development time, which is noticeable because back then, graphics were improving rapidly. It was a Quake 2 game released in an Unreal world.

 

[nazzer]

I don't think John Romero was really that competant. Many of the features that he brought to id software in the development of their first three IPs were formed by the following process:

1. John Carmack develops engine
2.Romero defines a concept
3. Carmack adds features
4. Romero looks for ways to implement them in the design
5. Design is stripped down for various reasons, both technical and boredom related
6. Team creates a stripped down version of the original concept.

This happened on Wolfenstein 3D, when the original concept called for the stealth and espionage elements of the original Wolfenstein, but the features were cut out because they interrupted the game's action, which Romero thought was important in early playtests.

It happened again in DOOM, which was produced originally as an epic story involving an opening of the Doom marine, who had a name and backstory, playing cards with his platoon and then the gates of hell opening in a far more realistic facility that included cubicles and other scientists running around. The team together figured out that this was way too ambitious, and that areas like the offices would be to constricting (Though these features were mainly proposed by Tom Hall, I believe. Correct me if I am wrong.)

Finally, Quake started out being about some legendary box thing similar to Doom 3's soul cube that came from Carmack's D&D campaign, but the whole story was gradually overhauled as Romero was too bored of design to focus and instead was off being a rockstar.

John's designs weren't BAD, they just needed a level, realistic-minded person to offset them and tone down the ambitious efforts. This is why Daikatana was delayed so much: Romero's ambitious design called for better tech than the Quake I engine allowed for, and as id's Quake II engine improved he made his teams perform too many huge overhauls to try to keep up with id.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong folks, I still LOVE John Romero. His personality was great, and he was the first really cool game design icon, paving the way for people like Cliffy B.

 

[Johnnyallstar]

*Snippy McSnipperson

Spoiler: I have this to say about that.

Romero, in some ways, has reminded me of Peter Molyneux, or maybe vice versa. They are innovative thinkers that need talented people around them to help create what they imagine, and a bunch of strong willed assistants to keep him on track. Some strong willed people need to keep Romero and Moly from barging in and breaking the stream of work just because they had an inspiration. There's only so much time for games to be done.

 

[DigitalAtlas]

SNIP

While this is all true, it doesn't scratch the surface of the thread question.

Should a project like this be tried again WITHOUT being Deus Ex or Borderlands?

 

[nazzer]

SNIP

While this is all true, it doesn't scratch the surface of the thread question.

Should a project like this be tried again WITHOUT being Deus Ex or Borderlands?

That's true, lets add this to my post: I think that the only way this concept would really work is if Romero had that kind of a person to offset him, someone with a grounded, technical, rational mind to tone and shape Romero's hyper-energetic id. That's assuming that the remake project was actually tackled by Romero himself.

 

[DigitalAtlas]

SNIP

While this is all true, it doesn't scratch the surface of the thread question.

Should a project like this be tried again WITHOUT being Deus Ex or Borderlands?

That's true, lets add this to my post: I think that the only way this concept would really work is if Romero had that kind of a person to offset him, someone with a grounded, technical, rational mind to tone and shape Romero's hyper-energetic id. That's assuming that the remake project was actually tackled by Romero himself.

So Daikatana out. Why do you think games haven't tried to blend these two cultures to this extent since? I mean, sure Western devs have robbed RPGs of their once exclusive traits as a genre, but never before have combined cultures like this, to my extent. If someone wants to prove me wrong, feel free. I'd be glad to even try whatever game I was shown.

Looking at my games list, all I see is incredibly western/sci-fi, incredibly japanese, or featuring family oriented characters (nintendo/SEGA). Nothing combining elements.

 

[Custard_Angel]

I don't think John Romero was really that competant. Many of the features that he brought to id software in the development of their first three IPs were formed by the following process:

1. John Carmack develops engine
2.Romero defines a concept
3. Carmack adds features
4. Romero looks for ways to implement them in the design
5. Design is stripped down for various reasons, both technical and boredom related
6. Team creates a stripped down version of the original concept.

This happened on Wolfenstein 3D, when the original concept called for the stealth and espionage elements of the original Wolfenstein, but the features were cut out because they interrupted the game's action, which Romero thought was important in early playtests.

It happened again in DOOM, which was produced originally as an epic story involving an opening of the Doom marine, who had a name and backstory, playing cards with his platoon and then the gates of hell opening in a far more realistic facility that included cubicles and other scientists running around. The team together figured out that this was way too ambitious, and that areas like the offices would be to constricting (Though these features were mainly proposed by Tom Hall, I believe. Correct me if I am wrong.)

Finally, Quake started out being about some legendary box thing similar to Doom 3's soul cube that came from Carmack's D&D campaign, but the whole story was gradually overhauled as Romero was too bored of design to focus and instead was off being a rockstar.

John's designs weren't BAD, they just needed a level, realistic-minded person to offset them and tone down the ambitious efforts. This is why Daikatana was delayed so much: Romero's ambitious design called for better tech than the Quake I engine allowed for, and as id's Quake II engine improved he made his teams perform too many huge overhauls to try to keep up with id.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong folks, I still LOVE John Romero. His personality was great, and he was the first really cool game design icon, paving the way for people like Cliffy B.

HI JOHN ROMERO!

WHAT BRINGS YOU TO THESE FORUMS?

 

[nazzer]

I just think it's about the differences in what is popular in the West. The JRPG is no longer as popular as it was in the PS2's days, so I think it's just because the elements aren't too interesting to US audiences. We like burly space marines and the military. Notice that you don't see too many fantasy-themed FPSs do too well in general, people prefer sci-fi and realistic themes in the West.

 

[Altorin]

The real tragedy of Daikatana is that it highlights a very sad moment in gaming history - the moment the two Johns split up, and both became far less then the sum of their wholes. Ion Storm died IMMEDIATELY, id's held on for a lot longer, but John Romero and John Carmack together were most certainly better then the sum of both of them seperated.

Gaming lost its first real superstar team, and really, we've never replaced them with anyone else. We've come close, and I think the two Drs at Bioware are probably the closest thing we have, but they don't have as clear an impact on their games, they just run house. John and John were instrumental in making their games - Wolfenstein 3d, Doom and Quake what they were.

Carmack was in charge of moving the technology forward, Romero was in charge of giving us worlds that we wanted to inhabit and destroy. Once they split off, they started exaggerating those aspects of their game making philosophy, and the games after their split are all worse then what they did together.

In summation (because I've rambled a LOT about this), if John Carmack were involved with Daikatana, it would have been the best FPS ever made. Because he wasn't, and he brought the "good FPS Gameplay" to the Romero/Carmack team, it suffered and failed horribly.

 

[varulfic]

You know, say what you will about the game (except anything positive because it sucks), but I still think the advertisement was awesome. It's legendary, and how often can you say that in regards to a video game ad? When I think of advertising for gaming, only two examples comes to mind; Mr T's Night Elf Mohawk and John Romero, about to make me his *****.

 

[Altorin]

You know, say what you will about the game (except anything positive because it sucks), but I still think the advertisement was awesome. It's legendary, and how often can you say that in regards to a video game ad? When I think of advertising for gaming, only two examples comes to mind; Mr T's Night Elf Mohawk and John Carmack, about to make me his *****.

Romero.

 

[nazzer]

HI JOHN ROMERO!

WHAT BRINGS YOU TO THESE FORUMS?

Self-praising.

 

[varulfic]

You know, say what you will about the game (except anything positive because it sucks), but I still think the advertisement was awesome. It's legendary, and how often can you say that in regards to a video game ad? When I think of advertising for gaming, only two examples comes to mind; Mr T's Night Elf Mohawk and John Romero, about to make me his *****.

Romero.

That's what I said.

 

[nazzer]

Right. You totally said that. And I'm John Romero.

<_<

 

[DigitalAtlas]

The real tragedy of Daikatana is that it highlights a very sad moment in gaming history - the moment the two Johns split up, and both became far less then the sum of their wholes. Ion Storm died IMMEDIATELY, id's held on for a lot longer, but John Romero and John Carmack together were most certainly better then the sum of both of them seperated.

Gaming lost its first real superstar team, and really, we've never replaced them with anyone else. We've come close, and I think the two Drs at Bioware are probably the closest thing we have, but they don't have as clear an impact on their games, they just run house. John and John were instrumental in making their games - Wolfenstein 3d, Doom and Quake what they were.

Carmack was in charge of moving the technology forward, Romero was in charge of giving us worlds that we wanted to inhabit and destroy. Once they split off, they started exaggerating those aspects of their game making philosophy, and the games after their split are all worse then what they did together.

In summation (because I've rambled a LOT about this), if John Carmack were involved with Daikatana, it would have been the best FPS ever made. Because he wasn't, and he brought the "good FPS Gameplay" to the Romero/Carmack team, it suffered and failed horribly.

The best team I can imagine that still exists is Suda 51 and Shinji Mikami. Twice have they worked on a game together. The first one was gold and the second hasn't come out yet. It's them or Mikami, Inaba, and Kamiya. With those three we were blessed with Resident Evil 4, Devil May Cry, Viewtiful Joe, God Hand, Okami, Mad World, and Bayonetta. Just awesome.

Now time to use our imagination, if only Cliffy B would team up with Warren Specter.

 

[Netrigan]

I say Cliffy B & Peter Molyneux, so you can either dance, fart, or filet someone in Fables IV.

 

[DigitalAtlas]

I just think it's about the differences in what is popular in the West. The JRPG is no longer as popular as it was in the PS2's days, so I think it's just because the elements aren't too interesting to US audiences. We like burly space marines and the military. Notice that you don't see too many fantasy-themed FPSs do too well in general, people prefer sci-fi and realistic themes in the West.

That's something I have never understood though. I mean, movies have proven otherwise with Avatar making billions upon billions. Zelda is still a hit. Fallout 3 was great fantasy, though more sci-fi. Borderlands is all fantasy. The Final Fantasy games sell great still.

With a partnership like Square Enix and Eidos, it pains me that these ideas haven't been further implemented since Daikatana. With today's technology, the fantasy FPS could be massive and majestic looking if done right, then be frightening at others. Hell, I'd personally love to see a shooter today with Japanese philosophies discussed in today's Extra Creditz.

Right. You totally said that. And I'm John Romero.

<_<

Would be fabulous if John Romero took time away from social gaming to answer my thread.