Dalisclock completes the Metal Gear Series with some of his sanity intact

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Dalisclock

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Hawki said:
But on a related note, I will concede that Fontaine's plan to use Jack relied on a lot of luck to execute. Then again, I wonder what the Patriots' plan was if Raiden bit the bullet.
Bioshock's twist would mean a lot more to me if there were any other possible route to reach Ryan, which there never is because all the other possible passages are always blocked somehow. You aren't so much being directed in one direction then funneled by the level design.

It also falls down because once you "break free" of the programming near the end, the level design is as linear as ever. It doesn't suddenly let you explore Rapture to your hearts content, you're still told by someone else to go do stuff and you do it because the levels afford you no other option.

There's the inherent weirdness that Jack is essentially a 1 year old you has been rapidly aged to about 20 or so, which still doesn't explain why he's able to function at an adult level despite having no more then a years worth of life experience(I have an 8 month old. She's still working on crawling).
 

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Dalisclock said:
Bioshock's twist would mean a lot more to me if there were any other possible route to reach Ryan, which there never is because all the other possible passages are always blocked somehow. You aren't so much being directed in one direction then funneled by the level design.

It also falls down because once you "break free" of the programming near the end, the level design is as linear as ever. It doesn't suddenly let you explore Rapture to your hearts content, you're still told by someone else to go do stuff and you do it because the levels afford you no other option.
I don't really agree with that. BioShock's linear in the sense that one sequentially moves from one area to another, but each area is quite open with a sense of exploration - certainly had to look at the map a fair share of times. Certainly felt in my case that I was exploring Rapture. It's not free exploration in the sense of open world, but more exploration in the case of segmented areas.

It's kind of noticable once Atlas is revealed as being Fontaine, that Jack just does what Tellembaum tells him to do regardless, I will say that. Personally, I think it would have been great for Jack to start talking at this point. His nature as a silent protagonist works in the first half because there's the sense that he's just a golem, with the illusion of free will, in reality just doing what Atlas tells him to do. Come the second half, he'd have benefitted from characterization, showing that he has a drive to take revenge on Fontaine.

Dalisclock said:
There's the inherent weirdness that Jack is essentially a 1 year old you has been rapidly aged to about 20 or so, which still doesn't explain why he's able to function at an adult level despite having no more then a years worth of life experience(I have an 8 month old. She's still working on crawling).
Think we can assume that Wu's work allowed his mind to develop alongside his body. It's made up science that justifies his accelerated growth, we can assume it does the same for his brain development.
 

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Hawki said:
BioShock however is a skewering of libertarianism/Randism/laise faire capitalism, its core idea being that a society without some level of control is doomed to collapse (if anything, MGS2 is about the dangers of too much control, BioShock is about the dangers of not enough control). BioShock has a fantastical setting, but its warnings are still relevant to a world where people still advocate for laise faire capitalism and reductions in government control.
By Levine's own words BioShock is about how ideology is used as a justification for bad behavior. Ryan makes a big deal about his Objectivism, but audio logs makes it clear that he was just as much a dictator as anyone else, outlawing people he didn't like, forbidding the import on goods he didn't want in Rapture (the reason you see crates of bibles in Atlas' hideout) and demanding that people worship him as their savior. Atlas/Fontaine on the other hand uses altruism and utilitarism as excuses to make a profit and is very obviously just adopting whatever ideological rhetoric is needed at anyone point to make sure people will go along with his schemes.

BioShock absolutely delivers some scathing criticism of Objectivism (The "someone's got to clean the toilets even in Paradise" audio log comes to mind), but I don't think that's the core message of the game as much as it is some very nice and detailed set dressing.
 

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Hawki said:
One thing though, I got stuck on the end a few times, when the Sorrow zaps you. I had to look up that you needed to use your wake-up pill (I mean, does anyone actually use the temporary sleeping agent ever in the game, except perhaps in the Gorznygrad cell?)
You mean the suicide pill? It's useful when you're trying to get a good rating, it sends you to the real continue screen if you wanna restart the area when you get detected.

I'm really excited to hear OP's thoughts on MGS3, I think it's the greatest game of all time. The controls are a little bizarre, but they allow a really wide range of actions once you've mastered them. You can grab a guy, then go into first person and shoot over his shoulder while using him as a human shield. You can lower your gun by slowly releasing square when you have it aimed in first person. Another tactic you probably won't pick up on immediately but is super useful, you can hold enemies up by sneaking up on them and aiming your gun at them. This will cause them to surrender, even if you're out of bullets (although if you try to fire with no ammo and they hear your gun go 'click', they'll cut your ass). There's even a special camouflage for holding up The End, I strongly encourage trying to get it.

Make sure you talk to sigint and paramedic a lot, your crew is so charming in that game. Also, every boss awards a special camo if you defeat them by depleting their stamina instead of health, and they give you weird effects. The best one being The Sorrow's, which has a slightly different requirement (since you don't really fight him like that), and makes your footsteps completely silent.

I could really go on and on, MGS3 is such a rich tapestry. But I'll stop now, and wait for your review of it.
 

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Hawki said:
Phoenixmgs said:
Just popping in since I'm a pretty big MGS as that's what the "mgs" in my name is reference to.
So what about the phoenix part?

Phoenixmgs said:
-MGS2 did Bioshock better and before Bioshock, it is quite the masterpiece to this day. The story is even more poignant today than it was when it released. Kojima predicted a lot concerning information's affect on people, the Patriots were right. Whereas Bioshock just has some decent game commentary revolving around the dumbest assassination plot probably ever written.
Can't say I agree. I think both games are good, even if BioShock is better, but gameplay differences aside, their themes/ideas are different. There's arguably similarities between Raiden/Jack and...um, "Jack," in regards to how they're manipulated by those around them, but in terms of settings/ideas, the takes are different. MGS2 does feel relevant in regards to its take on information control and information overload, with people today obsessing over the most trivial of things. BioShock however is a skewering of libertarianism/Randism/laise faire capitalism, its core idea being that a society without some level of control is doomed to collapse (if anything, MGS2 is about the dangers of too much control, BioShock is about the dangers of not enough control). BioShock has a fantastical setting, but its warnings are still relevant to a world where people still advocate for laise faire capitalism and reductions in government control.

But on a related note, I will concede that Fontaine's plan to use Jack relied on a lot of luck to execute. Then again, I wonder what the Patriots' plan was if Raiden bit the bullet.
Phoenix is from X-Men as I loved the Phoenix saga as a kid.

I kinda feel the same way as Gethsemani about Bioshock's Objectivism being basically window dressing, good window dressing though.

The Patriots' plan really didn't hinge on Raiden at all. It was just a scenario set up to see how much the control of information would dictate human actions. If Raiden died, they probably would've just set up another scenario starting a new experiment basically. It's not like the Patriots needed Raiden to stop Solidus or anything, they had control of basically all the weapons from Metal Gears to nuclear missiles. It was only Emma that did anything to them and then they just had the other AIs pick up the slack basically.
 

Dalisclock

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Just a heads up that I finished Snake Eater this morning and am working on my write up now. Hopefully have it done tonight or tomorrow, and then I'm moving on to MGS4. I'm probably gonna watch the movie version of Portable Ops on Youtube just because it's apparently semi-canonical(as it "really broad strokes" cannonical) and I don't have it in the collection.

In short: Man that was fun. I have a strong urge to play it again being able to apply everything I've learned the first time(the superbunnyhop vid on it was also interesting. Apparently there are cigarettes somewhere that knock people out? How did I miss those?). However, I'm committed to finishing the series before I move onto any new games.
 

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Hawki said:
Dalisclock said:
There's the inherent weirdness that Jack is essentially a 1 year old you has been rapidly aged to about 20 or so, which still doesn't explain why he's able to function at an adult level despite having no more then a years worth of life experience(I have an 8 month old. She's still working on crawling).
Think we can assume that Wu's work allowed his mind to develop alongside his body. It's made up science that justifies his accelerated growth, we can assume it does the same for his brain development.
I'm onboard with the wonky made up science(I think Infinite is the best game in the series, so I kind of have to be), but even assume a fully developed adult brain with a fully developed adult body, the issue is: Jack literally only has a years worth of memories and experiences. How the hell is he even able to interact with anyone and know how anything works?

It's kind of the replicant problem from Blade Runner. If you don't have experience and memories, how can you hope to pass for a normal human being? He doesn't even have the excuse the Clones from Star Wars have, where they were trained from birth to be soldiers to complement their accelerated growth program(and the ones who fail to perform are presumably discarded).
 

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Dalisclock said:
I'm onboard with the wonky made up science(I think Infinite is the best game in the series, so I kind of have to be), but even assume a fully developed adult brain with a fully developed adult body, the issue is: Jack literally only has a years worth of memories and experiences. How the hell is he even able to interact with anyone and know how anything works?

It's kind of the replicant problem from Blade Runner. If you don't have experience and memories, how can you hope to pass for a normal human being? He doesn't even have the excuse the Clones from Star Wars have, where they were trained from birth to be soldiers to complement their accelerated growth program(and the ones who fail to perform are presumably discarded).
In Blade Runner, the replicants (or at least NEXUS 6 and onwards) are given fake memories to provide the emotional base for them to function. Jack has a photo of his 'parents,' so presumably he does have false memories that could be said to act as a buffer as well.

Basically, if Rapture's technology is so good that it can program commands into Jack, where even simple phrases can trigger his actions, even slowing his own heart, I can buy that the same tech can account for false memories that give him a sense of identity and know-how in which to function.
 

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Dalisclock said:
In short: Man that was fun. I have a strong urge to play it again being able to apply everything I've learned the first time(the superbunnyhop vid on it was also interesting. Apparently there are cigarettes somewhere that knock people out? How did I miss those?). However, I'm committed to finishing the series before I move onto any new games.
I wanna say you get the cigarettes in the first lab where you have to use the scientist outfit to infiltrate. They're useful, being one of two weapons you can use while disguised as a scientist. They, along with the chloroform rag, are shockingly good at killing bosses as well, if you're going for the stamina kill.

Now you understand why I think MGS3 is the best game, I'm excited to hear your full thoughts.
 

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Metal Gear Solid 3: Origins

Metal Gear Solid 2 was a solid game, but controversial to say the very least. A new and unexpected lead character (who many saw as inferior to Snake) combined with an increasingly bizarre and metafictional final act, as well as a notably similar setup to the previous game, did a lot to sour people on Metal Gear and Kojima?s creative abilities. Arguably Kojima didn?t even know where he was going with this, introducing a vast (presumably) retroactive conspiracy into the series mythos and implying every game to this point might have been a simulation (or a video game *rimshot*).

If MGS2 had been the final game of the series, as it almost seemed to be hinting at, a lot of people no doubt would have been very disappointed in how it ended. However, luckily this was not to be the case. MGS2 was successful enough to warrant yet another sequel (the 4th canon one thus far) and this time, Kojima decided to look backwards, both from chronological and developmental standpoint.

MGS3: Snake Eater (or more appropriately, ?SNNNAAAKKKEEE EEEEAAATTTTEEERRR?) takes numerous cues from the last MSX game, Metal Gear 2, reintroducing open environments into the series, drawing notably from some of the forgotten bosses of that game (and their signature move of exploding upon death) and making it worth it actually crawl again, as well as simultaneously toning back and enhancing the silliness in the series. It feels fresh again, while keeping the combat gameplay advances made over the past 15 years since MG2.

More overtly, the game draws one of its greatest strengths from the story of MG2, where Snake and the player began to realize that a lot of the black and white of Metal Gear was much greyer then previously believed. Former allies become enemies, Enemies gain realistic and interesting motivations and backstories. Big Boss is revealed to have a softer side (rescuing refugees and war orphans, even if it is to make them part of his army) and goes on at length about why he does what he does and why people willingly join and look up to him. And then Snake burns him to death, marking the end of the man if not the legend, paving the way for the games to follow.

As a side note, apparently, it?s been argued that the region Snake Eater takes place in 1964(no, I?m not gonna try to spell it) is the same region that Zanzibar Land would arise in 1999 in MG2. As far as I know, there?s no real evidence to support this but if it were somehow true then it ends a nice set of bookends to Big Bosses story, meaning that he began and ended his career in the same place 35 years apart.

MGS3 goes back nearly 50 years, to the height of the cold war in 1964. Jack/John AKA Naked Snake is dropped deep into the Soviet Union to rescue a Soviet weapons scientist named Sokolov who had been extracted to the West and then given back to halt the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962. He?s part of a special new CIA unit called FOX, designed for lone infiltration operations deep in hostile territory, on it?s (and his) first real mission.

The so called ?Virtuous Mission? goes deeply FUBAR almost immediately after Snake achieves his first goal, of meeting Sokolov. It turns out his mentor and mother figure, The Boss, had decided to defect to the Soviet Union at that very moment and bring a couple of Nuclear Mortars with her. Snake, unprepared for this (in more ways than one) quickly loses Sokolov to the Boss and her squad before being humiliated, having his arm broken and tossed off a bridge.

The remainder of the game revolvers around Operation Snake Eater, where Snake tries to fix this particular mess by rescuing Sokolov, assassinating The Boss and destroying this games version of Metal Gear, known as Shagohod (which, yet again, threatens the balance of power during a very hot time of the cold war). In addition to The Boss, the games predecessor to Big Boss as the
?world?s most legendary soldier?, are her Cobra Unit, who are the original quirky mini-boss squad that all of these games are required by law to have. A multinational team during WW2(and apparently contributed quite a bit to winning the war), they are strangely not named after different snakes, but the ?emotions? they carry into battle. The Boss is known as The Joy (presumably of duty, rather then of battle), along with the Pain (who?s COVERED IN BEES!), The Fear (who is a wierdass Predator/Spiderman mashup), The Fury(who apparently returned from orbit in his Spacesuit and loves fire) and The End(a seriously old Sniper who is not named after an actual emotion). As a callback to MG2, they don?t actually play much of a role beyond their individual boss battles, other then occasionally showing up in cutscenes beforehand so you can get a peak at them. None of their weird powers are explained either, since they can?t use the Nanomachine excuse.

The other notable villain is Col. Volgin, a Soviet Megalomaniac who is more than happy to hurt and kill anyone around him (including his own men) because he?s really just an awful person. He also sets off the plot by blowing up one of his own military labs with a American nuke(a mortar affectionally known as a Davy Crockett), because he knowns the Americans (specifically The Boss) would be blamed. His complete sadism complemented by his ability to channel electricity.

Rounding out the cast are EVA and Major Ocelot. EVA is an intelligence agent who ends up playing the role of Bond Girl, both helping and trying to seduce him throughout the game, while also posing as a mousy Soviet Officer named Tatyana, who Volgin has unfortunately taken a really creepy liking to. Ocelot, OTOH, is a much younger version of the backstabbing magnificent bastard well known from the earlier games in the series, who here is shown as kind of a punk with a weird obsession with both Russian Roulette (using 3 revolvers because apparently a single revolver isn?t overcomplicated enough) and Snake (who is has a weird love/hate relationship with). Amusingly enough, he discovers his love for both torture and revolvers because of Snake, but for some reason still gets away with dressing like a cowboy despite being a GRU (Soviet Military Intelligence) officer. Despite initial indications of loyalty, it should be no surprise to anyone by this point that Ocelot is a spy (apparently working for 3 or 4 parties at the same time in this game).

The gameplay is greatly expanded and has so many new nuances and surprises it?s nearly impossible to talk about everything here. The emphasis on Snake being out there on his own is now reflected much better in the mechanics. Snake has a Stamina bar in addition to health, which wears down depending on what snake does and how much equipment he carries at the ready. Instead of food healing him (as in every other game up to this point), food is now used to recover stamina instead. Life, instead, is mostly recovered automatically as snake rests.

There is an exception, where certain injuries result in permanent effects if not treated. Broken bones, burns, cuts, gunshot wounds, eating poisonous food, animal venom are all included and all have to be treated through a fairly realistic, if simplified, manner. It makes the game a little more interesting, but since it often just means going into a menu (mostly during boss battles) it can sometimes be more irritating then interesting (looking at you, THE FEAR).

Food is found all over the game, mostly in the form of plants and animals that can be killed or captured. The primary difference being that dead animals will eventually go bad and become rotten and unhealthy to eat, while live animal remains fresh essentially forever. There?s also packaged food that never goes bad either. How much stamina is recovered is based entirely off how much snake actually likes this food (amusingly, he enjoys pretty much every snake he eats, apparently because they needed some way to wring another meaning out of the title). This also leads to an amusing running joke where one of Snakes support staff, Paramedic, and Snake can have conversations about the various life he finds around the game world. Snake?s eternal question ?How does it taste??, leading Paramedic to occasionally question his sanity (and leads to amusing scene in the extras regarding a horse).

An interesting addendum to this is that saving actually has a story role and is considered to be Snake? taking a nap? which recovers Stamina but can lead to bad things happening (reloading from a save during a boss battle isn?t always a good idea with this in mind). Spend enough time away from the console and food will rot while you were gone (and this can be annoying if you can?t play for a couple days in a row).

The other new gameplay element added is the camo system. Now that Snake is now able to traverse a wide variety of environments (instead of say, an oil rig or a military base), the option is now available to change his camo (at the spur of the moment) to be blend in to the surroundings. Certain face makeup and camo works better in the forest then in the mountains then in a building with an indicator showing how well snake blends in at any particular time (anyone who played the original Thief games will remember the light gem and this serves much the same purpose). It also means that using tall grass, trees and staying low can prevent the guards from ever spotting you (and it works on bosses). It actually feels like this is the first time Metal Gear has actually used camo correctly and made it worth crawling around (I never really figured out if the sneaking suit actually helped in the first two MGS games or not).

The unarmed combat system is now expanded to include something called Close Quarter Combat or CQC, a more robust version of armed that allows a bunch of interesting moves, but unfortunately, I didn?t really learn how to use it until near the end of the game.

Other things of note are the little details. You can mess around with the guards and the world much more then before, including using explosives to blow up their supplies (making them more vulnerable to follow up attacks), taking out a helicopter that?s parked early on so you don?t have to deal with it later on (it?s not a boss but it can make your life more difficult) and at one point, can even snipe a boss to death before his battle (during a narrow time window).

The boss fights are generally well done, with some of the most impressive in the series so far. Some aren?t great, such as The Pain who is hard to take seriously and not particularly difficult either while The Fury is just incredibly frustrating. The Fear can be cheesed fairly easily once you know the trick. Volgin and Ocelot are fine bosses but nothing exceptional.

Shagohod, built to be a metal gear-ish WMD that will tip the cold war in favor of the soviets, comes across as rather ridiculous when finally seen in action. The extended boss fight even more so, including a lengthy chase through the endgame fortress before a showdown.

Of particular note is the fight with The End, which is everything a Sniper Duel in a video game should aspire to be. Fought over three large maps between Snake and the Centennial Sniper (with moss or something inside of him), half the battle is knowing the maps and the other is knowing how to find him. It?s less difficult then time consuming because he often knows where you are before you see him, but there are ways to outsmart him. I originally thought he was cheating because of how he would disappear once shot and could sit in areas where you couldn?t get to them, but later I realized the map is interconnected enough to allow you to reach those same sniper perches and there are ways to track him when he moves. It?s also possible to let old age kill him if you are just really tired of fighting him (which I really don?t recommend, as the fight is its own reward). My only disappointment was killing him with tranq darts but being able to get his rifle (which is a special weapon you can only get from him).

The other is The Boss, who you fight in a field of white flowers under a 10 minute time limit (at the end of which the area is bombed to hell). I think I died to the timer running out far more often then I died to her, trying to figure out how to do enough damage to her quickly enough. Eventually I ended up using flowers to hide myself and snipe her whenever I got a clear shot, but despite that it was the right kind of challenge for a final boss and made it feel worth it. Presumably you?re really supposed to beat her with CQC but I could never really figure out how to counter her effectively.

Everything about the game feels like a loving homage to James Bond films, especially the ear worm theme song that plays once the real game has begun. The aesthetic is 1960?s with some near future(mostly) touches. The beginning and endgame sequences especially highlight this and it works wonderfully. Even more amusing as James Bond films actually exist in universe where on Codec call involves your CO, Major Zero, going on a rant about how much he loves them (prompted by Snake saying he films them unrealistic).

The game also has a hell of a lot more humor in it then the preceding Solid games, even without the ?Secret Theater? outtakes (which are often hilarious). The support crew is generally likable and interesting, and all of them seem to acknowledge the camp despite the seriousness of the situation.

Even the pacing feels a lot better then the other MGS games thus far, with far fewer interrupting CODEC calls and cutscenes, letting the action play out. The ones that are forced are entertaining enough to be worth sitting through.

My biggest gripe is that Metal Gear still sucks at escort missions. Notably the one where EVA is injured and needs to be escorted across a few maps with enemies in pursuit. Since she?s injured, she moves slowly and runs low on stamina quickly, despite being very, very capable before that. Not only that, it?s really, really easy to leave her behind accidentally (as I did) and realize she?s still behind harassed by enemies offscreen. Her limitations aren?t terribly apparent considering this is the first time in the whole game you are escorting someone in such a way. It?s quite irritating, since it?s just before the end of the game and just after a really well-done action sequence. OTOH, it?s still less obnoxious then escorting Emma in MGS2. By a lot.

One of the places this game really shines for me is on the overall story level, as MGS3 begins the start of darkness for the man who would one day become Big Boss, which the game incorporates nicely into its themes. Very early into the game, The Boss has a long talk with Snake about what is more important to him: His conscience or the mission? If the mission requires him to do something he considers terrible, would he do it? The fruits of this conversation come to bear during the confrontation with the boss, where she easily bests him in combat. Not necessarily because Snake doesn?t know how to fight her. It?s made clear she trained him for the better part of a decade and they know each other quite well (the implications they were lovers a platonic way brought up at least one). It?s clear that Snake cannot separate his feeling for his mentor/mother/lover(?) from the orders he was given, which nearly leads to complete disaster. She even says that he?s too ?innocent? at that point in time, that he?s not willing to do what is needed.

This theme, ?Conscience or Mission?? is played out over and over again, not only through dialogue but through gameplay. Soldiers are human, allies and enemies change over time.
The gameplay and story work hand in hand here. Again, and again, you are reminded that the soldiers who oppose you aren?t evil and are rarely if ever depicted as being such. Instead, they?re shown as mooks doing their jobs, and a few cases, shown sympathetically (helping each other flee from a burning building, rather then try to stop Snake like in most other video games). Taking them down non-lethally is often easier, is less likely to raise an alarm if discovered and unconscious bodies normally yield ammunition and supplies, while dead ones don?t.

Even bosses play into this, where defeating bosses by draining their stamina will often lead to you getting something nice from them. One of the final boss ?fights? takes it a step further. The final member of the Cobra Unit, known as The Sorrow, doesn?t actually fight you directly. Instead, the entire area is implied to be part of the afterlife or something similar, walking down a dark, dreary river in the rain. The Sorrow, who was only previously very briefly noticed, tells you to face your sins and in this case, the sins are the people you?ve killed (even the bosses). In one of the nicest pieces of gameplay and story integration done in a video game, every single kill from the point the game started will meet you as you walk up the river, even referencing how they died (including possible cases of 2nd hand cannibalism, weirdly enough) and try to hurt you in turn. If you?ve been playing mostly non-lethal or even completely pacifistic, this encounter can end up being very anti-climactic. OTOH, if you?ve been fairly bloodthirsty so far, Snake will have to face a horde of the dead, giving you a stark reminder of just how many people you killed.

The mid and endgame start tying these themes into it?s lore roots with a much deeper. After the reveal of the Illuminati..er, Patriots in MGS2, it soon comes to light that the entire affair was a result of the continued machinations of their predecessor group, the Philosophers(who were prominent in Russia, China and the US). Apparently during WW2, the Philosophers pooled an enormous sum of resources and money to develop advanced tech and build the Cobra Unit to the defeat the Third Reich. However, with the war over, the US, USSR and China were enemies again and the fuckton of money they amassed ended up getting fought over. Volgin ended up with it (or at least, the means to recover it), so the Boss was sent in to get close to him and get it back. Unfortunately, she also ended up taking the fall when the entire thing almost spirals into WW3 and Snake was sent in to clean up the mess (without knowing why he was doing it).

This is where the real purpose of the The Boss and her company of heroes comes into play. Despite fighting together as comrades during the war, the cold war puts them on opposite sides once more. In particular, the Boss is forced to kill her comrade in arms/lover The Sorrow because she was ordered to and because politics and the philosophers demanded it. The rest of them end up on the wrong side of the history books and international politics, declared traitors (or at least the western ones did) because conscience and the mission become two different things, and because soldiers who fought valiantly are thrown to the wolves over money and the whims of politics.

In the finale, Snake finds out of this out that he had been used to kill perhaps the most patriotic soldier of all (sacrificing her life for a country that ordered her to commit treason), which he could only do because the hell he?d been put through allowed him to put the mission above her personal feelings. His victory, inheriting the title of Big Boss (a soldier even greater then his mentor) leaves him feeling broken and empty and it?s beautifully shown how well it sets the scene for Big Boss to go rogue, starting down the dark road that leads to Outer Heaven.

The parallels are now in place. Naked Snake is betrayed by his mother figure The Boss(apparently) and Major Zero (and the rest of the Philosophers) and is no longer ?innocent?, but unlike The Boss, he can no longer put country and mission over conscience as she did. He begins his own quest to remake the world and fight back against the Philosophers/Patriots. Solid Snake, in 30 years? time, would be betrayed by Big Boss, who had presumably reached the Apex of his power and begun every bit the legendary soldier The Boss was, and would be forced to kill his father figure (and actual clone father). Solid Snake would lose his innocence (and later betrayed by his country at Shadow Moses), become broken in his own way begin his own quest to deal with the same problem after going off the grid (if not sinking to the same lows).
MGS3 is a weird, amazing combination. A weird sort of Dark Comedy, Tragedy punctuating Camp. It?s an origin story that doesn?t fall into most of the usual traps surrounding origin stories (you already know certain characters are going to live, rendering some of the drama pointless) and a start of darkness that could have been handled far worse (Star Wars Prequels, anyone?) We get a firm foundation to that whole Patriot weirdness, some moving themes and iconic characters. The gameplay is more refined then ever, the pacing hits all the right beats and there?s very little I can say against it. I only hope MSG4 is somewhat decent in comparison to the masterpiece this turned out to be.

Next up: MSG4: The Movie: The Game
 

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Dalisclock said:
Metal Gear Solid 3: Origins
Dear God, if they'd gone with a title as generic as that...

Dalisclock said:
If MGS2 had been the final game of the series, as it almost seemed to be hinting at,
It did?

Dalisclock said:
As a side note, apparently, it?s been argued that the region Snake Eater takes place in 1964(no, I?m not gonna try to spell it) is the same region that Zanzibar Land would arise in 1999 in MG2. As far as I know, there?s no real evidence to support this but if it were somehow true then it ends a nice set of bookends to Big Bosses story, meaning that he began and ended his career in the same place 35 years apart.
According to the novelization of Guns of the Patriots they are indeed the same location. Apparently the novelization's of dubious canon status though.

Dalisclock said:
A multinational team during WW2(and apparently contributed quite a bit to winning the war),
"Contributed?" Doesn't Zero state that they outright won it?

I'll admit that little nugget always bothered me. You can sell me on the achievements of the Cobra Unit by having them simply be a black ops WWII unit that took out V2 rocket sites, you don't need to claim that the outcome of WWII rested on them. Especially since Metal Gear as a whole is generally sympathetic to the plight of the common soldier, that the "badass normal" character (e.g. Snake) is the one who ends up triumphing over those with superhuman abilities.

Dalisclock said:
the Pain (who?s COVERED IN BEES!),
Hornets, actually.

Dalisclock said:
None of their weird powers are explained either, since they can?t use the Nanomachine excuse.
Apparently they're explained in MGS5, but I won't spoil it for you.

Dalisclock said:
The boss fights are generally well done, with some of the most impressive in the series so far. Some aren?t great, such as The Pain who is hard to take seriously and not particularly difficult either while The Fury is just incredibly frustrating. The Fear can be cheesed fairly easily once you know the trick. Volgin and Ocelot are fine bosses but nothing exceptional.
To be honest, I think Snake Eater has perhaps the best boss line-up of all the Metal Gear games I've played. The End is particuarly frustrating, but I have to admit it's a very creative battle, just a long, drawn out, often frustrating one. But I do like that each of them generally require a different set of tactics to beat, and each feel unique.

Dalisclock said:
The other is The Boss, who you fight in a field of white flowers under a 10 minute time limit (at the end of which the area is bombed to hell). I think I died to the timer running out far more often then I died to her, trying to figure out how to do enough damage to her quickly enough. Eventually I ended up using flowers to hide myself and snipe her whenever I got a clear shot, but despite that it was the right kind of challenge for a final boss and made it feel worth it. Presumably you?re really supposed to beat her with CQC but I could never really figure out how to counter her effectively.
...huh.

I never ran out of time myself. Early on, I died far too often for that. Ironically though, I did beat her through CQC, as my gunplay wasn't good enough to take her out from range, not to mention that her Patriot can (likely violating the laws of physics) deflect your bullets with its own. Still, I like the boss fight. From a mechanics standpoint, it's tense, and it serves as a test of everything you've learnt in the game thus far, least as far as guns and CQC goes (and arguably stealth). From a narrative sense, it also works well, and the flowers...yeah. Surreal, but it's Metal Gear. This game has a ghost boss for crying out loud.

Dalisclock said:
My biggest gripe is that Metal Gear still sucks at escort missions. Notably the one where EVA is injured and needs to be escorted across a few maps with enemies in pursuit. Since she?s injured, she moves slowly and runs low on stamina quickly, despite being very, very capable before that. Not only that, it?s really, really easy to leave her behind accidentally (as I did) and realize she?s still behind harassed by enemies offscreen. Her limitations aren?t terribly apparent considering this is the first time in the whole game you are escorting someone in such a way. It?s quite irritating, since it?s just before the end of the game and just after a really well-done action sequence. OTOH, it?s still less obnoxious then escorting Emma in MGS2. By a lot.
I actually liked the escort section. It's slow and frustrating, but in a good way. Gives a good tense feeling, and highlights that EVA, who's been a badass up to this point, still has her limits. And she is a more compelling character than Emma, so there is that.

Dalisclock said:
Even bosses play into this, where defeating bosses by draining their stamina will often lead to you getting something nice from them. One of the final boss ?fights? takes it a step further. The final member of the Cobra Unit, known as The Sorrow, doesn?t actually fight you directly. Instead, the entire area is implied to be part of the afterlife or something similar, walking down a dark, dreary river in the rain. The Sorrow, who was only previously very briefly noticed, tells you to face your sins and in this case, the sins are the people you?ve killed (even the bosses). In one of the nicest pieces of gameplay and story integration done in a video game, every single kill from the point the game started will meet you as you walk up the river, even referencing how they died (including possible cases of 2nd hand cannibalism, weirdly enough) and try to hurt you in turn. If you?ve been playing mostly non-lethal or even completely pacifistic, this encounter can end up being very anti-climactic. OTOH, if you?ve been fairly bloodthirsty so far, Snake will have to face a horde of the dead, giving you a stark reminder of just how many people you killed.
Pretty much this. When I played through it, I was surprised as to how many ghosts attacked me. Not enough to overwhelm me, but as someone who was going for stealth, it struck me that even after that approach, just how many people I'd ended up killing.

Dalisclock said:
MGS3 is a weird, amazing combination. A weird sort of Dark Comedy, Tragedy punctuating Camp. It?s an origin story that doesn?t fall into most of the usual traps surrounding origin stories (you already know certain characters are going to live, rendering some of the drama pointless) and a start of darkness that could have been handled far worse (Star Wars Prequels, anyone?) We get a firm foundation to that whole Patriot weirdness, some moving themes and iconic characters. The gameplay is more refined then ever, the pacing hits all the right beats and there?s very little I can say against it. I only hope MSG4 is somewhat decent in comparison to the masterpiece this turned out to be.
So, yeah. Good write-up.

You make a good point with the origin story aspect. While I'm far more charitable to the prequels than what your post would suggest, MGS3 actually stands alone quite well. Someone could play this game (I imagine) without any prior knowledge of the Metal Gear series and still get a complete experience from it, since its story and themes stand alone. I will say that this is indeed my favorite Metal Gear game, and my #9 game of all time (sort of, that's a different matter). MGS1 has more nostalgia for me, and I've played it much more, but MGS3 is, as you point out, more refined. Mechanically, it's a far more in-depth stealth game, what with the camo, the CQC, and the greater fluidity of movement. On the story side, I also feel it's more refined than previous entries. The Metal Gear series has always had a "war is bad, m'kay" theme to it, but of all the installments I've played, this one feels the most well thought out. Best characters, best themes, etc. Granted, MGS1-3 explore different ideas (it's been said that of MGS 1-4, it goes "gene," "meme," "scene," "theme" (as in a combination), but of the core ideas, MGS3 handles them the best.

Dalisclock said:
Next up: MSG4: The Movie: The Game
Heh, have fun.

Can't comment on MGS4 I'm afraid. Back in the day, it was a toss-up between the Xbox 360 and PS3, and I went with the former, and by the time I got a PS3, the Metal Gear series had moved on so far I was iffy about trying to catch up. But good luck.
 

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Hawki said:
Dear God, if they'd gone with a title as generic as that...
I was tempted to subtitle MGS4 as Revelations. I still might.

Hawki said:
Parts of the ending seemed to give that impression at times. Notably Snake's big Denouement to Raiden about living life the way you want for whatever reason seemed like a generic "I'm gonna leave this here. Do what you want with it" ending trope. Part of that is also Kojima apparently saying outright he was planning on not making any more Metal Gear games after MGS2, which fuels that impression.

The fact Kojima kind of wrote himself into a corner with the Gainex Ending reinforces this in my mind. Like he was thinking "I'll never have to explain this so I'm gonna go nuts with it".

I freely admit, a lot of this is the vibe I was getting at times and is thus mostly subjective.


Hawki said:
"Contributed?" Doesn't Zero state that they outright won it?

I'll admit that little nugget always bothered me. You can sell me on the achievements of the Cobra Unit by having them simply be a black ops WWII unit that took out V2 rocket sites, you don't need to claim that the outcome of WWII rested on them. Especially since Metal Gear as a whole is generally sympathetic to the plight of the common soldier, that the "badass normal" character (e.g. Snake) is the one who ends up triumphing over those with superhuman abilities.
I assumed Zero was exaggerating a wee bit. Especially since later it's outright stated the Philosophers pooled a massive amount of resources and invested in building advanced tech in order to win the war, thus the whole thing about the lost Legacy.


Hawki said:
Hornets, actually.
I know, but "I'M COVERED IN HORNETS!" isn't nearly as funny.



Hawki said:
Apparently they're explained in MGS5, but I won't spoil it for you.
Something Something Parasites, so I've heard. I haven't looked that much into it because I'm sure MGS5 will go into them at length to justify why Quiet is wearing fishnets instead of a tank top and why there's a fire man on a flaming alicorn chasing Snake around.


Hawki said:
To be honest, I think Snake Eater has perhaps the best boss line-up of all the Metal Gear games I've played. The End is particuarly frustrating, but I have to admit it's a very creative battle, just a long, drawn out, often frustrating one. But I do like that each of them generally require a different set of tactics to beat, and each feel unique.
Don't get me wrong. Compared to the pervious games, the line up is much stronger and the gimmicks don't distract as much as say MGS2. I'm comparing them more to each other here.

Hawki said:
I actually liked the escort section. It's slow and frustrating, but in a good way. Gives a good tense feeling, and highlights that EVA, who's been a badass up to this point, still has her limits. And she is a more compelling character than Emma, so there is that.
I think part of it is the fact that I spent the first map trying to figure out how to get her to MOVE towards the end of the map, only to have her whine about how she can't walk. I finally ended up knocking her out and dragging her to the cliff, only to find I had to wait till she woke up to actually enter the next area.

Once I realized I could just use the memu to feed her(the food menu doesn't list her if she's too far away, so I didn't realize I could do it) and slowly guide her along by using the "Come" action, it got a lot less frustrating. I just kind of wish the game would have made it more obvious that's how it worked.

Hawki said:
You make a good point with the origin story aspect. While I'm far more charitable to the prequels than what your post would suggest, MGS3 actually stands alone quite well. Someone could play this game (I imagine) without any prior knowledge of the Metal Gear series and still get a complete experience from it, since its story and themes stand alone. I will say that this is indeed my favorite Metal Gear game, and my #9 game of all time (sort of, that's a different matter). MGS1 has more nostalgia for me, and I've played it much more, but MGS3 is, as you point out, more refined. Mechanically, it's a far more in-depth stealth game, what with the camo, the CQC, and the greater fluidity of movement. On the story side, I also feel it's more refined than previous entries. The Metal Gear series has always had a "war is bad, m'kay" theme to it, but of all the installments I've played, this one feels the most well thought out. Best characters, best themes, etc. Granted, MGS1-3 explore different ideas (it's been said that of MGS 1-4, it goes "gene," "meme," "scene," "theme" (as in a combination), but of the core ideas, MGS3 handles them the best.
Yeah, despite every reason Snake Eater shouldn't work, it somehow does very well and feels like the most complete package. In fact, it might be the best James Bond game despite not actually being a James Bond game. I felt like I scratched the surface of what I could have done. I didn't even realize you could find a bunch of hidden radio frequencies to cancel alerts and even call in artillery strikes until I was nearly done with the game. I can only imagine what other little things there are to find in there.
 

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MGS3 is the best MGS with regards to gameplay (quality and quantity). MGS4 still holds the bar for best TPS controls ever though (all games not just MGS btw) but the amount of gameplay in MGS4 is not enough. Although MGO2 is STILL the best online shooter because of said controls being so good along with scary good balance that you hardly see in shooters.

But anyway, the 2 plot things that have always soured me on MGS3 is the Shagohod physics make no sense and I don't think the game does a good job at showing/telling the player about the location(s) of the Philosopher's Legacy. I remember after finishing the game way back that if Eva stole it from Snake at the end, how does Snake still have it (or a part of it or whatever)?
 

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Phoenixmgs said:
But anyway, the 2 plot things that have always soured me on MGS3 is the Shagohod physics make no sense and I don't think the game does a good job at showing/telling the player about the location(s) of the Philosopher's Legacy. I remember after finishing the game way back that if Eva stole it from Snake at the end, how does Snake still have it (or a part of it or whatever)?
The Shagohod bothered me, though somehow seeing it in action during the finale kind of defused that because of how ridiculous it is. I mean, Volgin controlling it by holding the wires? Turning on a dime? Flailing like an excited toddler? Crawling up a collapsed bridge? Even by this series standards that's silly. It's kind of fitting that at one point Paramedic asks Snake if he's seen "Dr. Strangelove" because the Shagohod fight felt like the video game equivalent of Slim Pickens riding a nuclear bomb, waving a cowboy hat like a madman as he falls to his doom.

I think it's mentioned by Ocelot that EVA got a fake copy of the Legacy. Somehow Ocelot switched the real information with a fake somewhere along the way(did Ocelot have it before the Boss got it? I need to rewatch some of the cutscenes), or at least half of it and passed it onto the CIA. Apparently the Russians kept the other half and the Chinese got zilch.

It's also entirely possible that Ocelot was lying about half of the legacy still being in the hands of the KGB to the Director of the CIA. I wouldn't put it past him to have stolen half of it and just said "Oh, the russians must have the other half" and probably telling a similar lie to the Russians. In fact, knowing Ocelot, that's likely exactly what he did.
 

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A quick bump. So I'm roughly halfway done with MGS4(I've finished Act 3). So far it's better then I thought it would be, but it still has some notable issues and flaws.

This is gonna be a really interesting write up on quite a few subjects.

For now I'll just go with the following thoughts:
-I'm extremely convinced that Kojima not so secretly wants to be a film director, considering the length of some of these cutscenes.
-On one hand, I'm happy the series FINALLY has a pause button for cutscenes, because my bladder can only last for some long and this game doesn't allow replaying skipped cutscenes. On the other hand, I'm annoyed it took 4 games to implement.
-Whose bright idea was it to remap the shooting controls? Because it was a real pain to get used to using right bumper to shoot instead of the Square button.
-I don't remember Metal Gear having this many poop jokes. I mean, really Johnny...er, Kojima?
 

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Dalisclock said:
A quick bump. So I'm roughly halfway done with MGS4(I've finished Act 3). So far it's better then I thought it would be, but it still has some notable issues and flaws.

This is gonna be a really interesting write up on quite a few subjects.

For now I'll just go with the following thoughts:
-I'm extremely convinced that Kojima not so secretly wants to be a film director, considering the length of some of these cutscenes.
-On one hand, I'm happy the series FINALLY has a pause button for cutscenes, because my bladder can only last for some long and this game doesn't allow replaying skipped cutscenes. On the other hand, I'm annoyed it took 4 games to implement.
-Whose bright idea was it to remap the shooting controls? Because it was a real pain to get used to using right bumper to shoot instead of the Square button.
-I don't remember Metal Gear having this many poop jokes. I mean, really Johnny...er, Kojima?
Regarding Controls:

Metal Gear Solid 4 was made in a time when many games were adopting a standard control scheme. With Gears of War's success every other similar games took to doing so. Heck people lashed at Resident Evil 5 for retaining the Resident Evil 4 control scheme over the more modern Gears of War controls.

Regarding Cutscenes: This game has the largest amount of cutscenes ever. I was hyper into the franchise so I paid atenntion to every detail in the cutscenes.

Also the graphics in this game blew me away as a teen mostly the character models and motion captured faces impressed me. Like this game made me thought no way can the Xbox 360 handle this.
 

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Dalisclock said:
-Whose bright idea was it to remap the shooting controls? Because it was a real pain to get used to using right bumper to shoot instead of the Square button.
The controls did need a change IMO. The MGS games have aged well because they didn't try to be TPSs until the industry figured it out basically. Probably the best feeling TPS controls prior to PS3/360 gen were RE4, which says a lot since when does a survival horror game have the best 3rd-person shooting for any gen. Before that we had stuff like Syphon Filter, which has aged horribly in basically all regards and its controls are just plain horrid because it tried to be a TPS before the controls got worked out. Then, when last-gen came around everyone from shooter devs like Epic Games to Naughty Dog and Bioware were making TPSs that controlled so much better than basically anything seen on PS2/Xbox or earlier. MGS4 then upgraded its controls to being a straight TPS (from a control standpoint) when said TPS controls actually became good.

MGS4 still holds the title of best TPS controls ever IMO because they are so mechanically sound from having a proper shoulder swap (a rarity for some reason in the genre) to not having any contextual controls (Snake won't roll when you want him to take cover ala Uncharted). There's 3 separate sensitivity settings with a slew of other settings. There's also no wasted buttons like melee or grenade buttons like just about any other shooter since COD4. This allows for so many more actions to be allowed like leaning (something every shooter should have) and obviously all the CQC options; you can grab an enemy, attach C4 to them, and let them run around waiting to detonate the C4. MGO2 is still the best online shooter and can be played on fan-run servers with more players than MGO3 (MGS5 online) because of the amazing controls. MGS5's controls became a bog standard TPS with contextual "soft" cover system that never works while greatly simplifying CQC and removing mechanics like leaning.

Samtemdo8 said:
Regarding Cutscenes: This game has the largest amount of cutscenes ever. I was hyper into the franchise so I paid atenntion to every detail in the cutscenes.
MGS4 has the longest single cutscenes but I doubt it has more cutscenes (in total length) than a game like a Xenosaga.
 

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Thanks for the enlightenment about the control scheme changes. I didn't get a PS3 until a few years ago(and PS3 was already on it's last year or so when I did) so I missed the evolution of gamepad controls. My last console prior to that was an SNES(and almost all my gaming after that was PC).

I do appreciate the fact you can make snake move in a semi-stealthy crouch now instead of either totally exposed running and slow but mostly safe crawling.

I've heard the game has 9.5 hours of cutscenes(I believe it), including the ending which is something like 70ish minutes long. I think only FFXIII might rival that for sheer length.

Interestingly, I read somewhere that despite the length of cutscenes, the ratio of cutscenes to actual gameplay is actually a little better then MGS2. However, I haven't been able to find confirmation of that.
 

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Dalisclock said:
Thanks for the enlightenment about the control scheme changes. I didn't get a PS3 until a few years ago(and PS3 was already on it's last year or so when I did) so I missed the evolution of gamepad controls. My last console prior to that was an SNES(and almost all my gaming after that was PC).

I do appreciate the fact you can make snake move in a semi-stealthy crouch now instead of either totally exposed running and slow but mostly safe crawling.

I've heard the game has 9.5 hours of cutscenes(I believe it), including the ending which is something like 70ish minutes long. I think only FFXIII might rival that for sheer length.

Interestingly, I read somewhere that despite the length of cutscenes, the ratio of cutscenes to actual gameplay is actually a little better then MGS2. However, I haven't been able to find confirmation of that.
I don't think most gamers realize how "new" the TPS genre is to a degree. TPSs before PS3/360 gen were a rarity and almost always pretty bad. I remember playing Winback (the first cover shooter) and if anyone played that now, they would call it hot garbage. I think it was very wise for the MGS series to not really try being a TPS until MGS4 as you can play them all even now (as you have done) and they haven't aged nearly as bad as any actual TPS from their time.

Super Bunnyhop's MGS videos are pretty good and great watches once you finish each game. He just put up a MGS4 video (I watched about half of it before getting too sleepy as I was going to bed) that is so far pretty negative but I can't really disagree with many of his points honestly. He actually brought up the fact that MGS4 is the first MGS where you can move while crouched. MGS4 kinda wraps up the storyline in basically the only way it could be wrapped up for better and for worse.
 

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Dalisclock said:
Interestingly, I read somewhere that despite the length of cutscenes, the ratio of cutscenes to actual gameplay is actually a little better then MGS2. However, I haven't been able to find confirmation of that.
I'd believe that -- MGS2 went a bit nuts with the length of those codec conversations. I remember one near the end where I actually fell asleep.