Damn Whale wars....

[OneCatch]

And the Canadian Government hate Sea Shepherd only slightly less than the Japanese (on account of the whole seal hunting thing) Iceland and Norway also practice whaling, so I imagine (no proof) that they aren't too fond of Sea Shepherd either!

Well, ya. Most countries "hate" foreign nationals entering their countries specifically to commit crimes.

Indeed. But there are plenty of governments (as already mentioned) that have turned a relative blind eye because they to some extent agree with what Sea Shepherd do. Plenty of activists break laws. It doesn't necessarily make them wrong does it?

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Well, for one, appparently what you posted refers to an entirely different incident than the one being discussed.

Yes it is a different incident, as I stated in my post.
I was simply making the point that you can't take the whaler's word as any more valuable than Shepherd's, given that both sides have been caught lying about things.
Unless you can find some excuse for the incident with Greenpeace, you must accept that the whalers have also engaged in unnecessarily dangerous behavior out of stubbornness.

***

*Great response snip*

I'm no veggie but I at least like to think I have a little compassion and morality. I am very pleased that battery farms are being outlawed in the UK, and that fox hunting has gone, and as you say, not only is whaling barbaric and endangering species, it's almost completely unnecessary for a first world country and there's little demand for the product. It's completely retarded to exterminate some of the most majestic species on the planet for no other reason that "cos we can".

Now, I can't comment on the methods used or the show, but activists do what they've gotta do. It takes action to stop people doing bad things, and from the posts here at least they're better at it than Green Peace!

How is it endangering species? The Japanese only hunted the Minke whale for centuries. They are not endangered and are ranked the same as pigs, chickens, and cows. It wasn't until they had to "research" whales did they go after the rare whales. However, the majority is still Minke.

Yes, but they still go after endangered species too, and they always have done as well [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_whaling#Organized_whaling]. Don't have a go at Heimir for not doing research when you haven't even checked yours in the same post!
Anyway, even if you were right, your argument is like saying: "It's fine, they hunt antelope 95% of the time [small]and then kill an elephant[/small] but MOST of it is antelope so it's fine!" Which is a bit silly.

While whaling should be illegalized as it has no reaso to exist at all. Nobody eats whale nor dolphins. The japanese don't. Whaling should be globally illegal. But those cuntbags are not fighting for a cause they're just whoring to get view ratings and to look cool and get famous by being complete dolts while breaking international law. I want whaling to stop, but that's not the way to go about it. The Cove was a step in the right direction but the people on the Bird of Prey will just make people go against the anti-whaling folks out of annoyance and frustration. They're really just harming their own cause.

Look up. Also the Japanese do eat whales and dolphins.

Yes they do. Dolphins aren't endangered, which means it is slightly less objectionable (though I still hate it).
But whale meat is not that popular in Japan, certainly not popular enough to warrant the size of the hunt operation. That's why the Japanese government has had to subsidise it to the tune of $12 million just to break even in 2008-2009 (and $150 million since 1988).
Because no one really likes whale meat, the Japanese government have started feeding it to schoolkids and dogs [http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/whale-meat-used-for-dog-food/story-e6frg6t6-1111115171833] as an attempt to make it more popular, in spite of it containing too much mercury (and other fun chemicals [http://www.hsi.org/issues/whaling/facts/human_health_concerns_of_whale_meat.html]) to be safe for children to eat. The argument that it's a popular national dish is just crap.
Like I said before, it's just the Japanese government being bloody minded, and then trying to justify their position by trying to hide the veritable mountain of whale meat that no-one fucking wants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minke_whale
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_whaling

Actually. I am right. You see the charts in that link right there? Its classed as "least concern." Its not even endangered in any sense of the word. Not only that but the attempt to reign in the whaling industry only made them diversify. It was a failure.

(Edit here, fixed quotes)


Actually the IUCN labels them least concern. CITIES however, lists them as Appendix 1, which is threatened. If you look at your own link [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minke_whale#Population_and_distribution] as I did, you'll also see that the population is believed to be below the figure that the Japanese use, and that the IWC have said that they can't measure it with any confidence. Not quite the picture you painted.
I'm not saying that whaling at current levels is going to make the Minke extinct imminently. I do however think that the Japanese and other whaling nations do their level best to obfuscate the facts out of bull-headedness. They also issue permits to hunt species that are endangered, that could very easily be wiped out.

Where did you get that graph? It conflicts with the data present in this section [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minke_whale#Whaling] of the wiki article you posted in your previous point. Specifically, the article states at in the early 90's the Japanese killed between 678 and 871 whales per year. Your graph seems to show that around 500 whales were killed at most. Which one is the correct figure?
Regardless, since the graph doesn't show any figures prior to 1984, it's pretty useless as evidence that the Japanese never hunted endangered species before that time.
In addition, I'm going to quote the wiki page I linked to in my last post, which is apparently derived from the ICR (the Japanese organization responsible for releasing whaling permits). It deals with historical Japanese whaling:
"Right whales, humpback whales, fin, minke and gray whales were primarily hunted. Blue whales, sei, Bryde's and sperm whales were however also taken when possible."
That does seem to put a dent in your argument.

And even if everything you've said is correct, it's still a pretty pathetic move of the Japanese; to start deliberately issuing permits for endangered species (knowing full well they could be driven to extinction) to make a point. Do you really think that's the action of a responsible government?

Not only that, but if whale meat is not popular, the economy will fix it. You don't need environmentalists to run supply and demand. The market is saturated, so it will decrease in size with time. That is certain. The market corrects itself. There is nothing to fight. The majority of whales they catch are not endangered, making any huge fuss over it destroying the world rather overblown. The problem is an economic one and regulatory one, not so much environmental.

I dealt with this in my previous post:

But whale meat is not that popular in Japan, certainly not popular enough to warrant the size of the hunt operation. That's why the Japanese government has had to subsidise it to the tune of $12 million just to break even in 2008-2009 (and $150 million since 1988).
Because no one really likes whale meat, the Japanese government have started feeding it to schoolkids and dogs [http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/whale-meat-used-for-dog-food/story-e6frg6t6-1111115171833] as an attempt to make it more popular, in spite of it containing too much mercury (and other fun chemicals [http://www.hsi.org/issues/whaling/facts/human_health_concerns_of_whale_meat.html]) to be safe for children to eat. The argument that it's a popular national dish is just crap.
Like I said before, it's just the Japanese government being bloody minded, and then trying to justify their position by trying to hide the veritable mountain of whale meat that no-one fucking wants.

The market is not shrinking because the Japanese government subsidises it in order to send a message to the IWC. They pay whalers to go and hunt whales for meat that they can't sell. So they try and feed it to schoolkids in spite of the fact that there are worries about its affect on health. It's been suggested that a secondary aim is to bring up a generation of children that are used to eating whale meat, so as to guarantee the survival of the industry. It's patently ridiculous.
Any problems with my analysis?

 

[GrandmaFunk]

Indeed. But there are plenty of governments (as already mentioned) that have turned a relative blind eye because they to some extent agree with what Sea Shepherd do. Plenty of activists break laws. It doesn't necessarily make them wrong does it?

They "turn a blind eye" because the illegal activities didn't occur inside their territory and/or the victims were not citizens of said countries.

It's like saying France turns a blind eye to Brazilian murderers because it doesn't prosecute them. It's not that they silently support them, it's simply not their responsibility.

As for you other point, I'll agree that sometimes activists need to break some laws, usually because they are protesting those very laws, and that laws and morality don't align 1:1.

However, that moral leeway stops quite short of putting human lives in danger, which these idiots continue to do so.

 

[OneCatch]

Indeed. But there are plenty of governments (as already mentioned) that have turned a relative blind eye because they to some extent agree with what Sea Shepherd do. Plenty of activists break laws. It doesn't necessarily make them wrong does it?

They "turn a blind eye" because the illegal activities didn't occur inside their territory and/or the victims were not citizens of said countries.

It's like saying France turns a blind eye to Brazilian murderers because it doesn't prosecute them. It's not that they silently support them, it's simply not their responsibility.

As for you other point, I'll agree that sometimes activists need to break some laws, usually because they are protesting those very laws, and that laws and morality don't align 1:1.

However, that moral leeway stops quite short of putting human lives in danger, which these idiots continue to do so.

Well it is kind of their responsibility given that these supposed crimes committed in international waters. I'm no expert, but I suspect that if they were smugglers or pirates they'd be arrested at whatever Western port they stopped at.

I accept the point about activism though - significant risk to human life is in almost all cases a step too far.
I guess I don't think the risks imposed upon the whalers have been significant enough to warrant the "life threatening" moniker, hence why I quite like Sea Shepherd.

That's just my opinion though, and I fully recognize I feel more strongly than most on this particular issue!

 

[OneCatch]

1. That graph came from the same link you provided to japanese whaling.

2. The market will shrink, since they most likely cannot afford to keep an entire market alive forever.

3. I didn't explicitly say they only hunted minke. I Said they predominantly hunted minke for a long time.

4. 500 minkes on the graph, you fail to take into account the other species. The graph does not conflict as you didn't compile all species, just one.

1. Fair do's, just checked, and it seems the various wikipedia articles we've furiously posted are contradictory. The graph is correct - it's from IWC data, so I'm sorry for casting doubt upon it - it is the Minke Whale article that is probably wrong.
That said, it still doesn't mention catches prior to 1985, and is therefore not useful for ascertaining which whales were caught before then. If anything, it suggests that the Japanese government have started issuing permits (since pirate whaling is insignificant) to catch endangered species in addition to Minke. What is the rationale for for them starting to hunt endangered species years after joining the treaty?
It can't be because they can't catch as much Minke, because the Minke quota has increased as well. It can't be because of increased demand, because they are having trouble getting rid of the meat. Surely the only option left is that the Japanese government is playing power games? If you can think of another explanation, I'd be glad to hear it (no sarcasm or dickishness intended - I honestly can't think of another reason)

2. I'm sure it will eventually cease (probably partially because of the extra cost inflicted by environmental groups), but that isn't going to help endangered species now, and it's still a pretty shitty move by the Japanese government.

3. That is most definitely not what you said!

The Japanese only hunted the Minke whale for centuries

It wasn't until they had to "research" whales did they go after the rare whales.

But anyway, I think it's pretty clear that they hunt many types now, and have done throughout history, even if Minke was often numerically the most significant catch.

4. In which case surely you just proved my point? You said that they didn't predominantly hunt anything except Minke (as per the above quote). Now you're saying that the numbers add up on the graph because whales other than minke aren't on the graph, but were hunted!

 

[GrandmaFunk]

Well it is kind of their responsibility given that these supposed crimes committed in international waters. I'm no expert, but I suspect that if they were smugglers or pirates they'd be arrested at whatever Western port they stopped at.

"international waters" means that it's outside their jurisdiction, therefor not their responsibility.

I accept the point about activism though - significant risk to human life is in almost all cases a step too far.
I guess I don't think the risks imposed upon the whalers have been significant enough to warrant the "life threatening" moniker, hence why I quite like Sea Shepherd.

That's just my opinion though, and I fully recognize I feel more strongly than most on this particular issue!

Do you not consider things like reckless driving as "life threatening"?

because that's what they're doing every time they play chicken with another boat, trying to force them off course, or when they purposefully try to disable or otherwise sabotage boats.

luckily, nothing severe as ever happened but watching some of the footage it comes pretty close way too often and it would take very little for things to go horribly, horribly wrong.

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I understand ppl who support their cause, or at least the values they supposedly promote, but that ppl actually LIKE them...that sincerely baffles me. I mean, the show is obviously edited to make them look as good as possible...and they still come off as bumbling idiots that are incapable of understanding what's going on around them.

for example: they catapult unidentified chemicals onto a ship's deck and then try to BOARD it ...yet somehow they are greatly surprised and shocked that the other crew reacts violently.

I think the whalers have acted with a lot of restraint in most of the cases.

 

[evilneko]

Yes it is a different incident, as I stated in my post.
I was simply making the point that you can't take the whaler's word as any more valuable than Shepherd's, given that both sides have been caught lying about things.
Unless you can find some excuse for the incident with Greenpeace, you must accept that the whalers have also engaged in unnecessarily dangerous behavior out of stubbornness.

I never said or implied that they haven't, so I'm puzzled why you engaged me on this.

 

[OneCatch]

1. That's the present. The attempts to stop whaling only made the japanese diversify, as you can see on that graph. I was talking about historically. Since there were claims that they only hunted minke centuries. Due to them being common and small enough to be caught easily.

I don't think I've made my argument clear: I'm saying that they couldn't diversify as a result of the ban, because before the ban they hunted everything anyway (prior to the 1980's at least). The ban has resulted in a reduced catch overall, but they still started hunting endangered species again in the 90's (as the graph shows) in spite of the ban (much as they did beforehand, admittedly in reduced quantities overall).

So far as I remember, the ICR isn't limited in the number or type of permits issued (aside from Greenpeace and the scientists in the IWC going mental, but they do that regardless!), so why don't they simply issue more Minke permits to make up for the fact that they can't hunt larger animals? I'd suggest it's because they are being obstinate rather than because of any economic considerations.

However, its entirely possible that since Japan isn't in the best economic state right now, they are trying to keep their economy's diversity. Losing an entire market is not something Japan can allow. Their economy is struggling.

That's a good point, and I feel stupid for not thinking of it. But the way I see it, whale meat is a market that's massively (compared to it's size) subsidized by the government. I don't doubt that what you've suggested is a factor in the government's reasoning, but it doesn't make it a GOOD idea to pay for a fleet that's never going to make money again, especially when it produces a product that you can't make money on even if you basically force it on people.

2. Either way, its more of an economic and regulatory issue. If you just allowed minkes, the mass of meat becomes smaller since they are not that big. The endangered species are left alone. The problem becomes smaller. I doubt anyone would go for that, because that is just too sensible for anything UN related.

You're right, if Minke whales were the only ones hunted, I (and many others) would have less of a problem with it (I'd still dislike it, but not to the extent that I'd support Sea Shepherd as much). But I suspect, given the actions of the Japanese government, that if only Minke hunting were legal, they'd hunt as many Minkes as they possibly could, and then start to push for endangered hunting as well. Or they'd hunt endangered whales by conveniently 'mistaking' them for legal ones.

Essentially, I simply don't trust the Japanese government to act in an honest manner when it comes to whaling. They've been underhanded about it since the 1940's and it's still going on today. If they could come to an agreement where they'd only hunt whales that were demonstrably unendangered (we've mentioned Minkes a lot, so they can be the example), and if they stopped subsidizing the industry and let demand decide whether it survived, I'd have less of an ethical objection to the whaling (after all, I support the fact that indigenous peoples are considered an exception to the rules, so I am at least grudgingly flexible on the issue!). But it'll never happen because the ICR is too stubborn to concede that it's a stupid, obsolete industry.

I can understand perfectly why people don't like Sea Shepherd, but I think that the whalers tend to distort the events at sea at least as much, and morally I'm somewhat more closely aligned with an anti-whaling organization than a pro-whaling one.

 

[Timberwolf0924]

Why is it so frowned upon for people eating animals? In Mexico horses are eaten, why aren't there Horse Wars! But it's always an asian country being attacked. Ya know what, whale is delcious, so is Dolphin, I'd eat it any day. But there's no sense in going after something that people have hunted for years. Or better yet, why don't they go out there where the eskimo are hunting orca and drive your 2 million dollar boat over their canoes and stop them form killing them?