Dark Souls: an experiment in logic

[Naeras]

Seriously?
Does even having the option of playing the game on an easier mode, even when you're not touching it with a ten foot pole, ruin the game for you?

Depends what you mean by 'ruin'. It would likely lose a lot of the qualities that distinguish it from other titles. Atmosphere, tension, sense of achievement, community struggle, etc. are all impacted. If you disagree that these things are even a factor that could be affected by an easy mode, then I think it's likely you and I just fundamentally disagree on what games are and how games work. Or, we disagree about what difficulty means in Dark Souls. I don't know if the game would be 'ruined' but it may mean the difference between picking up Dark Souls II and picking up Call of Duty XLVIII.

How the hell does that work? I can't even begin to fathom how something that's not relevant to you in the slightest would even affect your gameplay experience, far less how it would ruin it for you.

I find it very hard to believe that you don't know what I'm talking about. Don't agree with? Fine, opinions and all. But don't know?

Suppose I spoiled Fight Club for you. I won't, because I'm not a dick. But suppose I did. Have I changed the way you experience the film? How do you account for that? It is, after all the exact same film, and therefore the way you experience it is irrelevant.

That's what you are trying to do to me with Dark Souls, and if you don't see it that way I ask you to at least respect that I do and not call me a gorramn elitist. If you think I freaked out the last time, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

Dark Souls is not a difficult game. Dark Souls is a difficulty game. Please respect the difference.

I don't see the similarity between spoiling the plot of a movie and giving the option of a game mode that you're never going to use. One directly affects your experience because you know what's going to happen, the other one has nothing to do with you whatsoever if you don't use the setting.

There are other games throughout history that have had difficulty affect the narrative(the opening of Deus Ex: Human Revolution comes to mind), and playing on a lower difficulty setting would probably minimize the contrast between the opening and the following mission. The fact that you felt far more vulnerable as a regular human compared to when you were augmented was one of several ways the game effectively asked you questions around the whole augmentation-problematique, and if I'd play on easy mode, I'd probably lose that narrative point. Now, did that affect me when I'm not using that setting? No. Of course it didn't.

Still, I think you're right that we're not going anywhere with this, so let's just agree to disagree. However, just to be clear, I do agree that the difficulty affects those factors, as I've stated more than once in this thread. I just don't think it's a so integral part of the game that having the option of making it easier(an option I wouldn't use, by the way) would make the other levels of difficulty suffer.

My question is still unanswered.How can a game that has difficulty based on the players input be made easier?If you have played the game you have probably seen how much of an advantage the games layout gives you.How does someone like the razor combat but "die way too much"?I keep asking posters-what enemy cannot be beaten with a sturdy shield,patience and reading everything?What will scaling stats do to enemies whose attack patterns are inherent to their design and are fatal? I really believe that people go into the game with a mindset from other games. Inductively,their play-styles from other games have given good results-so it should be the same here.If those players played every game deductively,as if it was their first time playing ,each new game could be tackled in a new way-as a different game should be played.

How would you make BlightTown easier?And so on?

Making it easier wouldn't be harder than to scale damage and status thresholds down. It's actually not more complicated than that. What causes difficulties to many is the degree the game punishes mistakes, and toning that down would make an impact. Probably enough that a couple of friends of mine would have picked it up, in fact.
Though, I don't think you could ever make Dark Souls an easy game without redesigning the entire thing(which would be a bad idea, considering how good the game is), but making it easier doesn't require more than some scaling.

 

[BreakfastMan]

Not the way that I hear from many XCOM fans: the games were supposed to be unforgiving, like you were actually fighting against an alien force, making each loss that much more palatable and damaging. You are supposed to feel like you are fighting a losing battle against a superior force, or something like that. :\

I think youre missing the point I was trying to make. XCOM is known for bing a hard game but it is not DEFINED by being a hard game. Its a subtle but important difference.

Again Persona is known for being a difficult franchise but it is not DEFINED by being a hard franchise. Difficulty is synonomous with the souls series. Persona isnt defined by its difficulty it is defined by roleplaying, being a JRPG, and probably other elements (yeah if you havnt guessed I havnt played that much Persona).

I guess my point is I don't think of the Souls series as defined by it's difficulty anymore than XCOM or Persona are. All are known for difficulty, but that never really struck me as the point of any of them (honestly, I think of the Souls games more as fantasy-based survival horror games). I guess I just have a wildly different perspective on this. :\

Lets switch gears though. I want to talk about the artistic side of Dark souls and what the difficulty means as an artistic method to portray the developers intentions. Lets start with the question I posed earlier. Artistic method is sacrosanct. Do you agree or disagree and why?

I don't even know what you mean by Artistic method, so I am not sure how to answer.

 

[Hazy]

Dickwraith +3 here. I invade others constantly. Sometimes to steal their humanity, other time to give them gifts. Depends on my mood.

PSN-ArtoriasTheWolf
PlatiniumPSN-Bokurenkai

How can I get on your bad side?;p

Infect my world. That usually does it.

I have it on the PS3, but I'm mainly on the PC, since my PS3 builds aren't Min/Maxed like my PTDE builds are.

 

[Naeras]

However, this isn't what my post was about. The outcry against this has often been that "it would ruin the game for me", when that plainly isn't true, because if you enjoyed DS, you wouldn't pick an inferior easy mode to begin with. It wouldn't affect the regular customers in the slightest. Anyone who puts up that argument is an elitist, simple as that.

I wish I would have seen this earlier because this is really the kind of comment that shows how some pro easy mode individuals are not trying to understand the point of view of the purist. It clings to ideas that have already been proven to be false.

These kinds of personal attacks have no place in an intelligent discussion and I think its time people started spamming that report button when they come up.

That said, the idea that an easy mode will not effect our game is false and it always has been false. I'll repeat an argument I made earlier, human achievement is relative to what everyone else in the species can and can not do. Its not really my thing (I like to be more inclusionary) but some people like dark souls because other people cant hack it. Whether thats right, wrong, or indifferent I dont know but I do know its not likely to change. By our nature human beings are competitive and often times even adversarial (just like you were being with that elitist comment Naeras). At the end of the day, some elitists and purists have valid reasons for not wanting an easy mode in the game. You may call that selfish and Im inclined to agree. However we came to dark souls on our own and now people like you are trying to come in and change our experience. Thats even more selfish then anything an elitest or purist has said in this thread, so get off your high horse. Like it or not but that is a valid reason to leave out an easy mode

You can also see the third fallacy I listed on the previous page which is one of my major concerns with implementation of an easy mode.

Then there is a fact that there already is an easy mode that a player can come across using the sense of discovery the game is trying to give each player (its just not a menu option). A third valid reason why an easy mode shouldnt be implemented.

See the post on the top of this page, it pretty much covers what I'd reply to this post as well. And, like I said to Rooster Cogburn, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

I don't see the similarity between spoiling the plot of a movie and giving the option of a game mode that you're never going to use. One directly affects your experience because you know what's going to happen, the other one has nothing to do with you whatsoever if you don't use the setting.

Apparently it does, and I already explained why. I am not going to debate you over how Dark Souls makes me feel. If you want to talk pros and cons or have some kind of worthwhile discussion, I'm game. If you won't accept that I experience Dark Souls the way I say we do then we have no basis for a discussion.

There are other games throughout history that have had difficulty affect the narrative(the opening of Deus Ex: Human Revolution comes to mind), and playing on a lower difficulty setting would probably minimize the contrast between the opening and the following mission. The fact that you felt far more vulnerable as a regular human compared to when you were augmented was one of several ways the game effectively asked you questions around the whole augmentation-problematique, and if I'd play on easy mode, I'd probably lose that narrative point. Now, did that affect me when I'm not using that setting? No. Of course it didn't.

Well I'm not the one who thinks every game needs to be the same. What works for Deus Ex may or may not be the most appropriate choice for Dark Souls, and there may be pros and cons to either approach. I don't complain about easy mode in every game ever. Just Dark Souls. It's a very unusual title that shipped without easy mode for very good reasons.

Still, I think you're right that we're not going anywhere with this, so let's just agree to disagree. However, just to be clear, I do agree that the difficulty affects those factors, as I've stated more than once in this thread. I just don't think it's a completely integral part of the game, to the point that having the option of making it easier would make the other levels of difficulty suffer.

Fine, I'm not angry because you suggested something that might hurt my enjoyment of the game. I'm angry because you felt the need to call people who hold my view "elitist, simple as that", even when you apparently acknowledge there are other reasons (even bad ones) to not want an easy mode in Dark Souls.

 

[Windcaler]

Not the way that I hear from many XCOM fans: the games were supposed to be unforgiving, like you were actually fighting against an alien force, making each loss that much more palatable and damaging. You are supposed to feel like you are fighting a losing battle against a superior force, or something like that. :\

I think youre missing the point I was trying to make. XCOM is known for bing a hard game but it is not DEFINED by being a hard game. Its a subtle but important difference.

Again Persona is known for being a difficult franchise but it is not DEFINED by being a hard franchise. Difficulty is synonomous with the souls series. Persona isnt defined by its difficulty it is defined by roleplaying, being a JRPG, and probably other elements (yeah if you havnt guessed I havnt played that much Persona).

I guess my point is I don't think of the Souls series as defined by it's difficulty anymore than XCOM or Persona are. All are known for difficulty, but that never really struck as the point of any of them. I guess I just have a wildly different perspective on this. :\

Lets switch gears though. I want to talk about the artistic side of Dark souls and what the difficulty means as an artistic method to portray the developers intentions. Lets start with the question I posed earlier. Artistic method is sacrosanct. Do you agree or disagree and why?

I don't even know what you mean by Artistic method, so I am not sure how to answer.

Considering that you dont seem to understand the basics of artistry (not uncommon in this day and age as art programs in US public schools have been being cut for decades) I would agree. I dont think you understand the various points of view of people who dont want an easy mode or how it effects the artistic side of the game

 

[FriedRicer]

Seriously?
Does even having the option of playing the game on an easier mode, even when you're not touching it with a ten foot pole, ruin the game for you?

Depends what you mean by 'ruin'. It would likely lose a lot of the qualities that distinguish it from other titles. Atmosphere, tension, sense of achievement, community struggle, etc. are all impacted. If you disagree that these things are even a factor that could be affected by an easy mode, then I think it's likely you and I just fundamentally disagree on what games are and how games work. Or, we disagree about what difficulty means in Dark Souls. I don't know if the game would be 'ruined' but it may mean the difference between picking up Dark Souls II and picking up Call of Duty XLVIII.

How the hell does that work? I can't even begin to fathom how something that's not relevant to you in the slightest would even affect your gameplay experience, far less how it would ruin it for you.

I find it very hard to believe that you don't know what I'm talking about. Don't agree with? Fine, opinions and all. But don't know?

Suppose I spoiled Fight Club for you. I won't, because I'm not a dick. But suppose I did. Have I changed the way you experience the film? How do you account for that? It is, after all the exact same film, and therefore the way you experience it is irrelevant.

That's what you are trying to do to me with Dark Souls, and if you don't see it that way I ask you to at least respect that I do and not call me a gorramn elitist. If you think I freaked out the last time, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

Dark Souls is not a difficult game. Dark Souls is a difficulty game. Please respect the difference.

I don't see the similarity between spoiling the plot of a movie and giving the option of a game mode that you're never going to use. One directly affects your experience because you know what's going to happen, the other one has nothing to do with you whatsoever if you don't use the setting.

There are other games throughout history that have had difficulty affect the narrative(the opening of Deus Ex: Human Revolution comes to mind), and playing on a lower difficulty setting would probably minimize the contrast between the opening and the following mission. The fact that you felt far more vulnerable as a regular human compared to when you were augmented was one of several ways the game effectively asked you questions around the whole augmentation-problematique, and if I'd play on easy mode, I'd probably lose that narrative point. Now, did that affect me when I'm not using that setting? No. Of course it didn't.

Still, I think you're right that we're not going anywhere with this, so let's just agree to disagree. However, just to be clear, I do agree that the difficulty affects those factors, as I've stated more than once in this thread. I just don't think it's a completely integral part of the game, to the point that having the option of making it easier would make the other levels of difficulty suffer.

My question is still unanswered.How can a game that has difficulty based on the players input be made easier?If you have played the game you have probably seen how much of an advantage the games layout gives you.How does someone like the razor combat but "die way too much"?I keep asking posters-what enemy cannot be beaten with a sturdy shield,patience and reading everything?What will scaling stats do to enemies whose attack patterns are inherent to their design and are fatal? I really believe that people go into the game with a mindset from other games. Inductively,their play-styles from other games have given good results-so it should be the same here.If those players played every game deductively,as if it was their first time playing ,each new game could be tackled in a new way-as a different game should be played.

How would you make BlightTown easier?And so on?

Making it easier wouldn't be harder than to scale damage and status thresholds down. It's actually not more complicated than that. What causes difficulties to many is the degree the game punishes mistakes, and toning that down would make an impact. Probably enough that a couple of friends of mine would have picked it up, in fact.
Though, I don't think you could ever make Dark Souls an easy game without redesigning the entire thing(which would be a bad idea, considering how good the game is), but making it easier doesn't require more than some scaling.

That answer begins with the assumption that Dark Souls is a Hard game.The difficulty is proportionate to the players interest in all of its mechanics.How would scaling damage and status effect being stun locked by the Four Kings?Or the Bed of Chaos?Or being pushed in BlightTown?You keep putting a solution from other games that build their difficulty on stats to a game that builds its difficulty on tactics.And my question on play-style have still not been answered-even though the game was made to be played as such.Reading,Patience,shield up,walk slowly-how can these things (the core of the game) be hard to do?I don't think the game is hard but since you know people who do,what are they doing that makes the game hard?

 

[FriedRicer]

Dickwraith +3 here. I invade others constantly. Sometimes to steal their humanity, other time to give them gifts. Depends on my mood.

PSN-ArtoriasTheWolf
PlatiniumPSN-Bokurenkai

How can I get on your bad side?;p

Infect my world. That usually does it.

I have it on the PS3, but I'm mainly on the PC, since my PS3 builds aren't Min/Maxed like my PTDE builds are.

...Well,I am making a bunch of SLl00 builds for pvp.If you come back,expect the arena!

 

[BreakfastMan]

Not the way that I hear from many XCOM fans: the games were supposed to be unforgiving, like you were actually fighting against an alien force, making each loss that much more palatable and damaging. You are supposed to feel like you are fighting a losing battle against a superior force, or something like that. :\

I think youre missing the point I was trying to make. XCOM is known for bing a hard game but it is not DEFINED by being a hard game. Its a subtle but important difference.

Again Persona is known for being a difficult franchise but it is not DEFINED by being a hard franchise. Difficulty is synonomous with the souls series. Persona isnt defined by its difficulty it is defined by roleplaying, being a JRPG, and probably other elements (yeah if you havnt guessed I havnt played that much Persona).

I guess my point is I don't think of the Souls series as defined by it's difficulty anymore than XCOM or Persona are. All are known for difficulty, but that never really struck as the point of any of them. I guess I just have a wildly different perspective on this. :\

Lets switch gears though. I want to talk about the artistic side of Dark souls and what the difficulty means as an artistic method to portray the developers intentions. Lets start with the question I posed earlier. Artistic method is sacrosanct. Do you agree or disagree and why?

I don't even know what you mean by Artistic method, so I am not sure how to answer.

Considering that you dont seem to understand the basics of artistry (not uncommon in this day and age as art programs in US public schools have been being cut for decades) I would agree. I dont think you understand the various points of view of people who dont want an easy mode or how it effects the artistic side of the game

Don't insult me, I am not a child who is incapable of complexity. I understand their points of view, I just disagree. I am allowed to disagree with others who have different opinions than me, right?

 

[Icehearted]

Poor balancing doesn't equal higher difficulty. I remember seeing similar comments about Ninja Gaiden (and it's many iterations), and the development team ultimately admitted they hadn't optimized the game properly.

I mention this mostly because the debate about this game and the series' difficulty had repelled me from playing them for a long time. Never gave it a thought until a recent sale put a copy on my shelf. Now I find myself compelled to reason that it is possible for a game to be difficult without being cheap or poorly balanced (and ergo poorly programmed).

This is ultimately the thing. Games aren't meant to be challenging, or hard, they're meant to be fun. If for some the fun in is in a harder challenge, then that's great, but to be critical of others for not playing the game the same way comes off as churlish and misguided. Some people eat pizza with utensils, some with their hands, either way each can enjoy their pizza.

Which returns me to my initial misgivings about the game. The so-called hardcore player (if you will excuse the label) will unjustly extol the unfairness of a game and those that complete it. In doing so people can get the impression that this is merely just another unfair game just like others that were hailed for their (later) admitted imbalanced and unpolished difficulty.

I'm not afraid of challenging games, I welcome them (many of the achievements on my gamertag should confirm this). I am put off by games that lack polish, that punish the player for anything other than a lack of skill or that are nonsensically difficult (arguable, but Guitar Hero tread this line a lot).

 

[Windcaler]

See the post on the top of this page, it pretty much covers what I'd reply to this post as well. And, like I said to Rooster Cogburn, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

Frankly, no. I will not just agree to disagree. Im quite passionate about this debate and I actually want to have this dance. I want to go through every round and discuss the ideas you bring up that support an easy mode. If you want to withdraw from the discussion, ok Ill respect that but Im not backing down. I expect you and every other pro easy mode individual to back up their ideas and explain where theyre coming from. Then I want to give my input as to why I agree or disagree with them and why

The fact is were not just talking about a kitchen knife or a DVD player here. It doesnt come down to one being better or not. Dark souls, like all games, is art and if our medium is to move forward to a recognized artistic medium we have to have these kinds of discussions

 

[Naeras]

Fine, I'm not angry because you suggested something that might hurt my enjoyment of the game. I'm angry because you felt the need to call people who hold my view "elitist, simple as that", even when you apparently acknowledge there are other reasons (even bad ones) to not want an easy mode in Dark Souls.

I'm going to take back that statement, as there seems to be people who have more sensible reasons than "OMG CASUALZ" to be against a lower difficulty setting in the game. I don't think I'll ever agree with most of them, though.
Still, my apologies for making generalizations based on my experience with idiots on other forums.

That answer begins with the assumption that Dark Souls is a Hard game.The difficulty is proportionate to the players interest in all of its mechanics.How would scaling damage and status effect being stun locked by the Four Kings?Or the Bed of Chaos?Or being pushed in BlightTown?You keep putting a solution from other games that build their difficulty on stats to a game that builds its difficulty on tactics.And my question on play-style have still not been answered-even though the game was made to be played as such.Reading,Patience,shield up,walk slowly-how can these things (the core of the game) be hard to do?I don't think the game is hard but since you know people who do,what are they doing that makes the game hard?

I'm not quite sure why they find the game hard, no. I can ask them later, if you want me to?
Although, I suspect they're just not methodical enough and thus take unnecessary damage before they understand their enemies. None of them played for very long anyways, to my knowledge, even though they thought the combat and atmosphere were well done.

 

[Thetwistedendgame]

I occasionally invade, but never try to pull in invaders myself. I mean, it happened a lot on accident, but I mostly invaded others. I mostly use the darkmoon covenant though, because at least it makes me feel less like an arse when I jam an oversized axe into someones spine.

 

[Windcaler]

Don't insult me, I am not a child who is incapable of complexity. I understand their points of view, I just disagree. I am allowed to disagree with others who have different opinions than me, right?

I didnt insult you so calm down. You obviously lack the academic experience and knowledge to touch the artistic side of Dark souls. That is clear since you dont know what artistic method is or how it drives the game. Thats not calling you stupid its just stating the facts

You are allowed to disagree with people but your lack of academic experience and knowledge in regards to art makes it nearly impossible to go further with the discussion. How are we going to discuss the basic and intermediate artistic side of games if you dont know what Im talking about?

 

[barbzilla]

I would say this topic is thoroughly exhausted. We're repeating ourselves. Since I'm throwing in the towel, it's only fair that I let you have the last word on this. I will only respond if something new gets brought up but I will read it.

My thoughts exactly. I've already conceded a point to you though, so don't give up entirely. I think the issue is that there are two completely separate paths of looking at the subject.

1: Lets do it!

This path is focused on the fact that From can make the game have an easy mode that doesn't break down the core mechanics of the game (IE only making minor changes to add to survivability) without effecting the current players. This path follows a more basic logic route.

2: Kill it with fire!

This path is focused on either keeping the game pure to its core design/feel or providing the sense of accomplishment that you get from beating it (or as you have enlightened me on; keeping the brutality of the game intact by not allowing players another option. Do or die as it may be). This path follows a much more illogical route, but still has very valid points.

So how do we solve this?
Easy answer, we don't. The core of the argument will exist wherever we go, just look at the xcom making easy easier thread. Same exact arguments are being brought up there, despite it having a vastly different system. Just feel safe for now that From has decided it would be a bad idea and doesn't intend to implement it.

 

[Ariseishirou]

It's quite long, so I will list some key points:

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar, and I agree with these points completely.

Dark Souls isn't about twitch gaming, or manual skill (though that can certainly help in some areas). It's about cleverness, it's about learning. It's about developing effective strategies.

Any human being is capable of this. We are all intelligent animals. Making the Souls games "easy" would be synonymous with making them "brainless". It would destroy the entire game, make it rote hack and slash.

I know people who are terrible manual gamers that beat the Souls games (and loved them). By coming up with clever combinations of spells, or a vantage point from which to limit an opponent's attack, or even just a way to avoid an extremely difficult area altogether. If they can do it, anybody can do it. But they might have to think whilst doing it.

 

[barbzilla]

Not the way that I hear from many XCOM fans: the games were supposed to be unforgiving, like you were actually fighting against an alien force, making each loss that much more palatable and damaging. You are supposed to feel like you are fighting a losing battle against a superior force, or something like that. :\

I think youre missing the point I was trying to make. XCOM is known for bing a hard game but it is not DEFINED by being a hard game. Its a subtle but important difference.

Again Persona is known for being a difficult franchise but it is not DEFINED by being a hard franchise. Difficulty is synonomous with the souls series. Persona isnt defined by its difficulty it is defined by roleplaying, being a JRPG, and probably other elements (yeah if you havnt guessed I havnt played that much Persona).

I guess my point is I don't think of the Souls series as defined by it's difficulty anymore than XCOM or Persona are. All are known for difficulty, but that never really struck as the point of any of them. I guess I just have a wildly different perspective on this. :\

Lets switch gears though. I want to talk about the artistic side of Dark souls and what the difficulty means as an artistic method to portray the developers intentions. Lets start with the question I posed earlier. Artistic method is sacrosanct. Do you agree or disagree and why?

I don't even know what you mean by Artistic method, so I am not sure how to answer.

Considering that you dont seem to understand the basics of artistry (not uncommon in this day and age as art programs in US public schools have been being cut for decades) I would agree. I dont think you understand the various points of view of people who dont want an easy mode or how it effects the artistic side of the game

I'm going to step in for him here as an american that does understand the artistic method. I feel video games to be a communal art form, at least as it applies to modern video games. Every online aspect, every forum and online community, and every patch that releases for video games shows this. Publishers and devs have been making art for decades, well almost half a century now, in the form of electronic entertainment. As they have progressed they have learned (granted its been mostly a monetary reasoning) to listen to fans. These fans shape the future of the game.

I recently went to a showing where a woman was doing a performance art piece (can't remember the name). She was slowly sculpting over herself with clay while audience members came up and selected a book from the floor to read to her. With each passage read from a book the sculpting began to take on a different form (from the aggression and passion of the strokes). This is very similar to how we as a community crying in the publishers/devs ears works.

 

[Tanakh]

Partially offtopic:

How is this thread an "experiment in logic"? I read the OP and a few of the first replies, and there is not even a hint of a methodical series of steps in order to verify or debunk a statement in logic or by using formal or informal logic. Sure, it has a nice ring to it, I got into this thread lured by it, but then I was completly dissapointed because when I read something titled an experiment in logic I hope to see an experiment of some kind and logic present to a minimum degree; the discussion topics suggested in the OP are especially far from what was suggested in the title.

Ontopic - I try to interact online in DS as little as possible, because I find gear based PvP a bit boring. I guess if i cared more about DS as a whole, but TBH though i find it a good game and was happy to play it, I don't find it harder than a dozen other recent PC games.

 

[Windcaler]

Not the way that I hear from many XCOM fans: the games were supposed to be unforgiving, like you were actually fighting against an alien force, making each loss that much more palatable and damaging. You are supposed to feel like you are fighting a losing battle against a superior force, or something like that. :\

I think youre missing the point I was trying to make. XCOM is known for bing a hard game but it is not DEFINED by being a hard game. Its a subtle but important difference.

Again Persona is known for being a difficult franchise but it is not DEFINED by being a hard franchise. Difficulty is synonomous with the souls series. Persona isnt defined by its difficulty it is defined by roleplaying, being a JRPG, and probably other elements (yeah if you havnt guessed I havnt played that much Persona).

I guess my point is I don't think of the Souls series as defined by it's difficulty anymore than XCOM or Persona are. All are known for difficulty, but that never really struck as the point of any of them. I guess I just have a wildly different perspective on this. :\

Lets switch gears though. I want to talk about the artistic side of Dark souls and what the difficulty means as an artistic method to portray the developers intentions. Lets start with the question I posed earlier. Artistic method is sacrosanct. Do you agree or disagree and why?

I don't even know what you mean by Artistic method, so I am not sure how to answer.

Considering that you dont seem to understand the basics of artistry (not uncommon in this day and age as art programs in US public schools have been being cut for decades) I would agree. I dont think you understand the various points of view of people who dont want an easy mode or how it effects the artistic side of the game

I'm going to step in for him here as an american that does understand the artistic method. I feel video games to be a communal art form, at least as it applies to modern video games. Every online aspect, every forum and online community, and every patch that releases for video games shows this. Publishers and devs have been making art for decades, well almost half a century now, in the form of electronic entertainment. As they have progressed they have learned (granted its been mostly a monetary reasoning) to listen to fans. These fans shape the future of the game.

I recently went to a showing where a woman was doing a performance art piece (can't remember the name). She was slowly sculpting over herself with clay while audience members came up and selected a book from the floor to read to her. With each passage read from a book the sculpting began to take on a different form (from the aggression and passion of the strokes). This is very similar to how we as a community crying in the publishers/devs ears works.

Wow, Im actually a little surprised. Most people wont touch the art side of gaming with a 10 foot pole.

I have to disagree, though not in the way you probably think. I do view games as communal art but the majority of them are not communal for the player, they are communal for the development team. Most exceptions to the rule mostly fall under those that give greater creative control to the player with a system of complex developer made tools (i.e Minecraft).

What you're talking about (not in your example obviously because that is communal art with the viewer not solely artists) is more like critiquing art instead of being a driving force that shapes it. As Ive said I think its fair to critique art and explaining how meanings and intentions could have been better portrayed. However in the case of difficulty, well it just doesnt work that way because Dark souls is defined by it. I dont believe you could change that and retain the same game much how you couldnt change the Mona Lisa's smile and have the same painting.

 

[Darkbladex96]

Honestly how much easier can the game get? It's already a cakewalk? Adjust meant to damage take still arent going to stop the problematic enemies from killing you.

On the artistic side, the difficulty is suppose to help one get immersed in the dark times of the game. Too bad it fails to do that for me. By the time I fought the second boss of the game I learned the best strategy in the game. Hold block and strafe right. If an attack takes to long to come out its probably unblockable so get away from it, if a boss stands still and looks like its choking chances are its doing the full body aura blast thing like Quelaag so move...etc rinse and repeat.

I don't care if they added an easy mode, I believe everyone should be allowed to get immersed in the world of dark souls regardless of patience (i refuse to say skill).