Dark Souls: an experiment in logic

[barbzilla]

So I am sure everyone remembers the controversy surrounding the whole Dark Souls easy mode thing. It actually peaked my interested because I was told by many players that the easy mode would ruin the game from a design standpoint (not just for the easy players, but for the traditional mode players as well). So I did what I usually do when I have conflicting information with interesting reports. I investigated the situation.

A short backstory:

When Dark Souls first released on the 360 I picked it up because I was interested after hearing about Demon's Souls. I got through the Asylum with minimal difficulties and moved into Firelink. After repeated attempts with multiple characters to take down the Skellys in the graveyard, I gave up on the game (I never saw the stairs leading to the burg) as I wasn't into games that intentionally punished me. I gave it to a friend who was interested and let him have at it. He found the burg and got a ways in before the disc was destroyed by a moving Xbox. By this point, I had no real interest in the game any longer. Forgetting about it until the mention of an easy mode.

For obvious reasons an easy mode might appeal to me, someone who initially found the game too hard (though I found out later that it wasn't really that hard, I was just going the wrong direction). After the controversy died down the PC version released. So I picked it up to investigate the claims of an easy mode ruining the game.

Having Played:

After a long week of play I am now on my NG++ and I can safely say I love the game (though I hate the hackers). I can also safely say something else. I still don't see how a new mode labeled easy would have affected anyone other than the developers and the players who found the game inaccessible (provided they didn't let the easy players join the traditional players). I hold to it that an easy mode would have given more money to the developer to continue making games of the caliber.

Discussion:

The debate over this is long dead, and I realise it. So lets not rehash the same issues we discussed before. Instead I ask you, how do you interface with the online aspect of the game. Are you someone who avoids it at all costs only going human to kindle and summon, or do you run about human at all times to allow for invasions? Do you, perhaps, invade everyone yourself? Maybe you are one of the Cat Fellowship PvPers. Whatever the case maybe, what do you do online and why do you enjoy it?

 

[krazykidd]

I like the danger of being able to be invaded at any time . It ups the stakes , which are already pretty fucking high . It was fun back then ( i bought it day 1 ), because people didn't cheat ( mostly they didn't know how ). I also never used a guide so i had no idea ( at least on my first play through ) how big the areas were , where i would be safe , where to go . So so much things to worry about . It was exciting and fresh and new and awsome .

Also , if you want an easy mode DS is not the game for you. It says so on the box , anyone who bought the game should have known what they were getting into . And i seriously doubt the game would have sold so well if it wasn't hard . We got enough easy games to last a lifetime . People that want that can go play the wide array of games for them . This is a game for the challenge seekers. Niche , if you will.

 

[Pandalisk]

I'm a Sun Bro, i enjoy helping other DS players fight through their quest, they get to proceed, i get humanity and a sun medal, its all win-win really.

I like the thrill of being online, the random help, the random threats, the random hints. its enjoyable to say the least.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

The debate over this is long dead, and I realise it. So lets not rehash the same issues we discussed before.

Too late lol. It's not very fair to write an opinion piece and then ask us not to respond. Not fair I say! *grumble* I'll post a video I agree with on this subject. It's quite long, so I will list some key points:

1. The mechanics and content of Dark Souls are designed around it's difficulty. You can't change the difficulty and expect unskilled players to have a similar experience. It's not a matter of just halving the enemies' HP and calling it a day. It's not that simple. For example, Darkwraiths are trivial to me. You can multiply their health by ten times or a hundred, and they would still be trivial. It's not the scale of the challenge so much as learning to take advantage of the game's mechanics.

Update: what this means is, an easy mode would have a huge impact on the design of the normal mode almost as a necessity. Either they literally make two different games, which is obviously unrealistic, or they take both easy mode and normal mode into account in the design of every enemy, every area, every encounter, every puzzle, every boss, the leveling system, the weapon system, parry/riposte/backstab mechanics, poise/stability/defense mechanics, invicibility frames... you get the idea. So don't act so sure this won't effect my gameplay experience. It will most likely effect it in every aspect.

2. Learning to make the seemingly unbeatable content of Dark Souls trivial is the content of the game. Take that away and you're left with a short, shitty action-RPG. That's not because Dark Souls is shitty or because it just relies on difficulty as a crutch. It's because making Dark Souls easy makes it's content and mechanics irrelevant. Figuring out what you're supposed to do is the content of the game. Taking that away is like taking the strategy out of an RTS game. It would be pointless to play a game like that, you'd just get bored of it and find something else to play.

If you ever tried Dark Souls and gave up, it may surprise or even enrage you to see people say that it's actually easy. It may seem like they're just bragging. But they figured out how to make it easy. That is to say, they experienced the game's content.

3. It is massively unrealistic to expect the "hardcore" Dark Souls experience to retain it's quality and emphasis if FROM Software decides to seek a broader audience by implementing an easy mode. It defies logic and video game history. Especially in light of the points above. It just wouldn't make sense. I think it's realistic to expect the normal Dark Souls to be damaged and not unlikely it will just fade into the same cookie-cutter 'bleh' that characterizes so much stuff out there. And consider how atmospheric and inaccessible the story telling is, or how the game doesn't always tell you where to go next. Do you expect those elements to be preserved if From Soft decides to broaden their appeal? Not a chance.

It defies logic and especially video game history. We know what happens when a series tries to broaden it's appeal and seek out a new audience. So don't play dumb with me, please. It's tedious.

4. If Dark Souls had an easy mode, the tension would evaporate for all players, even the ones who play the normal difficulty. If there is an easy version of the Capra Demon, then I know I can beat the Capra Demon. I know I can win. Not only that, but I know the game is designed to ensure I can win. The tension is lost, or at least it is not the same. I wouldn't have felt the same way the first time I got obliterated by the Capra Demon in five seconds. And I wouldn't have felt the same way the first time I beat his ass and took his souls.

5. This one is from me, not the video: Having ONE difficult AAA title is not a freaking crime. There are so many accessible games you can play. Please leave me with the ONE title like this. Try to understand how this looks from my perspective. I have ONE game like this and it's apparently too much to ask.

...

I suspect some players think I don't want Dark Souls to have an easy mode for the following reasons:

1. Dark Souls is prohibitively difficult.
2. Beating Dark Souls makes you 1337.
3. I don't want to share my game with those who don't make the cut.

But it just ain't so. Many find Dark Souls prohibitively frustrating but it isn't that demanding in terms of "skill" required. If it was, I probably couldn't beat it. It just seems like it is, especially at first. I love Dark Souls and I want everyone to experience it. But people can't share in the Dark Souls experience if that experience is lost. Just listen to Hidetaka Miyazaki on people finding his games too hard:

This fact is really sad to me and I am thinking about how to make everyone complete the game while maintaining the current difficulty and carefully send all gamers the messages behind it.

Instead I ask you, how do you interface with the online aspect of the game. Are you someone who avoids it at all costs only going human to kindle and summon, or do you run about human at all times to allow for invasions? Do you, perhaps, invade everyone yourself? Maybe you are one of the Cat Fellowship PvPers. Whatever the case maybe, what do you do online and why do you enjoy it?

I mostly played hollow on my first playthrough (which means I received neither attacks nor cooperative aid from other players). This wasn't because I was chicken, but because of an early coop experience I had. I summoned a player in the Undead Burg, and he ended up more-or-less beating the Taurus Demon for me. I decided that was not the experience I was looking for, and determined to attack the PvE content uninterrupted for the remainder of the play-through. I did take time off to experiment with PvP and help people with bosses, but typically not when I was occupied with clearing the game.

After that first play-through, I always play in human form (subject to the benefits and dangers of online play). Now that I've beaten the game, it's not such a point of pride to do it by myself, and the threat of invasion keeps me on my toes.

I don't do Forest PvP much. There is nothing there but gank squads. Sometimes I think about going there to lame the lamers but, eh, what's the point. I much prefer Anor Londo. I understand Kiln of the First Flame is popular but I haven't spent time PvPing there. Now that Xbox has the DLC I will probably make a Soul Level 100 Arena build before too long. I've experimented with the Darkmoon Blades, and more recently the Darkwraiths. I LOVE the idea of the Darkmoon Blades, but I kind of hate Dark Londo lol. And I want to

Spoiler: Minor Spoiler

punch Gwyndolin in his stupid face

.

Playing the Dragon Covenant was really cool. I didn't mind fighting in Anor Londo while I waited to be summoned. It was pretty cool to 'hang' there, actually. Lay down one type of sign or another, kill stuff, wait to be summoned, and chill. Co-oping Ornstein and Smough is just fun. And I used the Dragon Scales I won to upgrade my Moonlight Greatsword. Int build FTW lol.

Besides, full Catarina armor + dragon head stone = lulz.

 

[barbzilla]

The debate over this is long dead, and I realise it. So lets not rehash the same issues we discussed before.

Too late lol. It's not very fair to write an opinion piece and then ask us not to respond. Not fair I say! *grumble* I'll post a video I agree with on this subject. It's quite long, so I will list some key points:

1. It is massively unrealistic to expect the "hardcore" Dark Souls experience to retain it's quality and emphasis if FROM Software decides to seek a broader audience by implementing an easy mode. It defies logic and video game history. I think it's realistic to expect the normal Dark Souls to be damaged and not unlikely it will just fade into the same cookie-cutter 'bleh' that characterizes so much stuff out there.

2. The mechanics and content of Dark Souls are designed around it's difficulty. You can't change the difficulty and expect unskilled players to have a similar experience. It's not a matter of just halving the enemies' HP and calling it a day. It's not that simple. For example, Darkwraiths are trivial to me. You can multiply their health by ten times or a hundred, and they would still be trivial. It's not the scale of the challenge so much as learning to take advantage of the game's mechanics.

Learning to make the seemingly unbeatable content of Dark Souls trivial is the content of the game. Take that away and you're left with a short, shitty action-RPG. That's not because Dark Souls is shitty or because it just relies on difficulty as a crutch. It's because making Dark Souls easy makes it's content and mechanics irrelevant. Figuring out what you're supposed to do is the content of the game. Taking that away is like taking the strategy out of an RTS game. It would be pointless to play a game like that, you'd just get bored of it and find something else to play.

If you ever tried Dark Souls and gave up, it may surprise or even enrage you to see people say that it's actually easy. It may seem like they're just bragging. But they figured out how to make it easy. That is to say, they experienced the game's content.

3. If Dark Souls had an easy mode, the tension would evaporate for all players, even the ones who play the normal difficulty. If there is an easy version of the Capra Demon, then I know I can beat the Capra Demon. I know I can win. Not only that, but I know the game is designed to ensure I can win. The tension is lost, or at least it is not the same. I wouldn't have felt the same way the first time I got obliterated by the Capra Demon in five seconds. And I wouldn't have felt the same way the first time I beat his ass and took his souls.

4. This one is from me, not the video: Having ONE difficult AAA title is not a freaking crime. There are so many accessible games you can play. Please leave me with the ONE title like this. Try to understand how this looks from my perspective. I have ONE game like this and it's apparently too much to ask.

I suspect some players think I don't want Dark Souls to have an easy mode for the following reasons:

1. Dark Souls is prohibitively difficult.
2. Beating Dark Souls makes you 1337.
3. I don't want to share my game with those who don't make the cut.

But it just ain't so. Many find Dark Souls prohibitively frustrating but it isn't that demanding in terms of "skill" required. I love Dark Souls and I want everyone to experience it. But people can't share in the Dark Souls experience if that experience is lost. Just listen to Hidetaka Miyazaki on people finding his games too hard:

This fact is really sad to me and I am thinking about how to make everyone complete the game while maintaining the current difficulty and carefully send all gamers the messages behind it.

Instead I ask you, how do you interface with the online aspect of the game. Are you someone who avoids it at all costs only going human to kindle and summon, or do you run about human at all times to allow for invasions? Do you, perhaps, invade everyone yourself? Maybe you are one of the Cat Fellowship PvPers. Whatever the case maybe, what do you do online and why do you enjoy it?

I mostly played hollow on my first playthrough (which means I received neither attacks nor cooperative aid from other players). This wasn't because I was chicken, but because of an early coop experience I had. I summoned a player in the Undead Burg, and he ended up more-or-less beating the Taurus Demon for me. I decided that was not the experience I was looking for, and determined to attack the PvE content uninterrupted for the remainder of the play-through. I did take time off to experiment with PvP and help people with bosses, but typically not when I was occupied with clearing the game.

After that first play-through, I always play in human form (subject to the benefits and dangers of online play). Now that I've beaten the game, it's not such a point of pride to do it by myself, and the threat of invasion keeps me on my toes.

I don't do Forest PvP much. There is nothing there but gank squads. Sometimes I think about going there to lame the lamers but, eh, what's the point. I much prefer Anor Londo. I understand Kiln of the First Flame is popular but I haven't spent time PvPing there. Now that Xbox has the DLC I will probably make a Soul Level 100 Arena build before too long. I've experimented with the Darkmoon Blades, and more recently the Darkwraiths. I LOVE the idea of the Darkmoon Blades, but I kind of hate Dark Londo lol. And I want to

Spoiler: Minor Spoiler

punch Gwyndolin in his stupid face

.

Playing the Dragon Covenant was really cool. I didn't mind fighting in Anor Londo while I waited to be summoned. It was pretty cool to 'hang' there, actually. Lay down one type of sign or another, kill stuff, wait to be summoned, and chill. Co-oping Ornstein and Smough is just fun. And I used the Dragon Scales I won to upgrade my Moonlight Greatsword. Int build FTW lol.

On the first point, I'll just leave it at; more money = more games made this way = more than just one of these games for your playing pleasure. Also, many people after playing on easy tend to move up in difficulty, but this isn't why we are here.

I love the PvP in this game, I just loathe the hackers. Them aside, I've had tons of fun with the game now that it is accessible to me, it just took some doing to get there. I don't mind that, but others do.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

On the first point, I'll just leave it at; more money = more games made this way = more than just one of these games for your playing pleasure.

There may be more games, but they wouldn't be like Dark Souls for all the reasons I described.

Also, many people after playing on easy tend to move up in difficulty,

It's really not about what other people do.

but this isn't why we are here.

Seriously friend, you can't do that lol. You can't write four paragraphs about a Dark Souls easy mode in the original post of a thread you titled "Dark Souls- an experiment in logic" and then tell us not to talk about it. And you can't rebut my posts on the subject and then tell me not to rebut yours. You can make your point or you can ask me to stop talking, you can't do both.

I love the PvP in this game, I just loathe the hackers. Them aside, I've had tons of fun with the game now that it is accessible to me, it just took some doing to get there. I don't mind that, but others do.

Okay, but I don't think it's fair to sacrifice my experience for their sake. They can play anything, I only have Dark Souls. I want those others to experience Dark Souls. And I admit being frustrating for new players isn't a good thing. But that's the nature of the beast. If they can somehow make this type of game both mechanics/knowledge-based and at the same time accessible to new players, then great. But that's a far cry from simply adding an easy mode to Dark Souls, and it sounds almost like trying to have your cake and eat it too.

 

[barbzilla]

On the first point, I'll just leave it at; more money = more games made this way = more than just one of these games for your playing pleasure.

There may be more games, but they wouldn't be like Dark Souls for all the reasons I described.

Also, many people after playing on easy tend to move up in difficulty,

It's really not about what other people do.

but this isn't why we are here.

Seriously friend, you can't do that lol. You can't write four paragraphs about a Dark Souls easy mode in the original post of a thread you titled "Dark Souls- an experiment in logic" and then tell us not to talk about it. And you can't rebut my posts on the subject and then tell me not to rebut yours. You can make your point or you can ask me to stop talking, you can't do both.

I love the PvP in this game, I just loathe the hackers. Them aside, I've had tons of fun with the game now that it is accessible to me, it just took some doing to get there. I don't mind that, but others do.

Okay, but I don't think it's fair to sacrifice my experience for their sake. They can play anything, I only have Dark Souls. I want those others to experience Dark Souls. And I admit being frustrating for new players isn't a good thing. But that's the nature of the beast. If they can somehow make this type of game both mechanics/knowledge-based and at the same time accessible to new players, then great. But that's a far cry from simply adding an easy mode to Dark Souls, and it sounds almost like trying to have your cake and eat it too.

How is it sacrificing your experience? If it is totally separate from the traditional players it doesn't effect you at all. This is the very argument that intrigued me to play the game in the first place. I don't see how it effects your playstyle at all.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

I feel Similairly to the Bioware, story-mode fiasco I will say the same thing now as I did then. Just let people play the game the way they want, don't want a easy mode? Fine then don't use the easy mode. You feel its prescence would kill all tension for other people? Fine let them play a worse game, you have suffered no loss for it. Seriously will people please stop trying to control how other people expierence a game because you don't like how they want to play?

 

[KoudelkaMorgan]

I wouldn't play an easy mode, unless I could switch it on just for 4 Kings and Ceaseless Discharge lol. I hate both those fights. The former because it forces me into a very specific strategy that runs counter to how I enjoy playing, and I still need luck to beat them on higher difficulties. The latter because its so random whether of not you are allowed to get all the way to the crevasse without getting one shot through the damn walls from a mile away.

Seriously that fight boils down to, grabbing the gear and running to the crevasse, usually getting insta gibbed. Then running back to the cravasse, randomly getting instagibbed by the screen wide wall of fire that clips through the geometry. Eventually you randomly are allowed to make it to the hidey-hole where you cheese the boss to death easily.

If there is another way to do it, one that doesn't rely on pure luck or perfect psychic dodges out in the open I probably wouldn't be able to do it that way. Rumor is that the new patch makes my way, the recommended way, not work anymore. Unless it also fixes his undodgeable nova attack going through the walls and floor it means I will probably never beat him again lol.

Did the DLC with an end game character.

Aside from those 2 instances the game isn't that difficult. If anything the patches made it even easier, while they whittled down the number of viable build choices repeatedly.

I love both Souls games. That being said I DESPISE the pvp. I don't co-op, but I wouldn't go so far as to say I hate it too.

My reasons being that I play them for the games themselves, the challenge, and for what amounts to a story.

I don't play them to inflate my ego, or yours be ganking or getting roflstomped.

I would rather have a game where the gear and spells are BALANCED AGAINST THE MOBS AND BOSSES and not against themselves so PVP has variation or whatever. I'm sick of this or that getting nerfed for PVP reasons that have often little implication to its PVE use other than to make more and more gear/build choices not as viable.

I don't use the DWGR, the masks, sorceries, elemental upgrade paths, or Greatswords, but I don't need them nerfed (in some cases repeatedly) just to satisfy the haters that clamour for it.

Also, can you imagine how much more actual CONTENT they might have been able to put into Dark in particular if they didn't feel obligated to base so much of the game around the covenant system?

I'd keep the goodies you get from them, just make them drops or in chests. Also the system in the first game with losing your body made sense since it directly affected your HP and the noise your aggro range etc. It was a penalty in some ways, but you did more damage and were quieter in soul form. The PVP there was broken but acceptable.

In Dark? Their is no reason to be in human/hollow form apart from minor curse resistance and item find. The main reason is so you don't get invaded every 13 seconds when you go anywhere near a bonfire. Unless you happen to think that having an in depth customization system is POINTLESS when your face looks like jerky 99% of the game.

I'd rather just have a decent game to play, minus the forced trolling of the PVP. I just disable my net when I play either game. I don't need a MOBA slathered over my ARPG.

 

[BreakfastMan]

We got enough easy games to last a lifetime . People that want that can go play the wide array of games for them . This is a game for the challenge seekers. Niche , if you will.

Really? I played both Souls games because I liked the level design, the art style, the world, and the atmosphere, not because I wanted a challenge. Guess I must have been playing the games wrong, then...

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

Dark Souls beat me. I wasn't able to even play it because it refused my attempts to use keyboard and mouse and wouldn't allow me to use my PS2 controller. None of the third party programs would work either because I use a PS2 to USB converter instead of PS2 to PS3.
So Dark Souls wins, it is truly the toughest game ever. Although I did get a refund, so maybe its a draw.

 

[Pebkio]

I've recently started playing Dark Souls again. I've gotten a lot farther this time than before my game got stolen. I like co-op mode and I'm a Sunbro... at least I was until after Gaping Dragon. Now I'm level 70 in Anor Londo and I can't be a Sunbro here... not many get to see my glorious golden phantom.

Also, Ornstein has been wrecking my face. I can take out Smough easy enough, but Ornstein is messing my face right up. I'm currently working on that. Maybe some Pyromancy... maybe some Quelaag's Furysword.

But back to the point of the online play, I love me some jolly cooperation. I just wish they'd lift the level restrictions a bit. Maybe they would've allowed more high-levels helping lower levels in co-op in Easy Mode. Just saying, I loves to help out and I wish I could go back to an area and help out no matter what. It'd be like a vacation. I've died 5 times fighting Super Ornstein, I'd like to col off a bit fighting the Hydra again. That kind of thing.

Oh... and I HATE pvp. Glitchy, easily hacked nonsense. I want to kill Dark Soul Gwyn... but I also don't want to be invaded by asshats on a regular basis while I'm patiently trying to learn enemy timing.

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

Funny, my first baby steps experience with Dark Souls was quite similar to yours, it seems. I found the graveyard and started whacking at the skellies, which refused to die and killed me with the tiniest effort on their behalf.

I still managed to level up a couple of times, but I thought to myself: Wow, that's really harsh.

Then, more by accident and wandering around aimlessly out of frustration, I found out that there was a stairs leading down and that there was more accessible game real estate in the opposite direction... where a dragon toasted me after a huge black knight chopped me to bits two or three times before I sniped him to doom.

Yes, Dark Souls is hard and harsh, but amazingly hardly ever unfair or cheap. Scaling the difficulty is something that's hardly ever done properly, and I just think it wouldn't do a brilliant title like Dark Souls, Demons Souls or whatever * Souls that might follow any good or proper justice. These games, just by being so well done and fair, are all about identifying the enemy and studying every single unique opponent. What moves do they have? What can I put to use in my arsenal? Ranged combat with a crappy bow that I should upgrade? Some fiery pyromancy? When they get close and things get personal, you just have to have a firm grasp of what your player character is capable of... in my case, I managed to postpone getting to terms with parry/riposte and backstabbing for days, and I didn't feel troubled enough to put up with it until Anor Londo. Once I mastered that - with very little dying - I truly felt more powerful and more in control.

Never forget the example my brother set when he went back to the Asylum - and killed the Asylum Demon with a non-upgraded crap sword. It took him hours and after he succeeded he collapsed in tears. I could have told him that that was a really crap idea, but, like me and others, he took his own time to understand the mechanics and intricacies of upgrading weapons and proper levelling your character.

Changing this game experience to 'press button to kill enemy' in a dumbed down way or maybe even in a quicktime button press approach would ruin all these little and big moments of achievement, of growing as a player. The controls, actual fighting and boss fights in the D* Souls games are all logical puzzles of sorts in their own way. Giving the player more health would spoil the system of putting upgrade/level points into health. Giving the player more punch would take away huge chunks of the dread and the other assorted feelings that make up a lot of the mindset you find yourself in once you dare to start the game and keep at it until you have at least a minor idea about what's going on and what to do. Any more thorough tutorial than the Asylum would be kiddie-style overkill. Any pop-up messages inviting me to 'lower the difficulty setting' would break immersion. Any way around taking the brunt of the games nastiness would be equivalent to cheating, both breaking gameplay and cheating yourself out of the experience of getting better and even good at turning your player character into a force to be feared by all the undead and undying baddies.

The PVP bit is borked, but not by design. People that resort to cheating and abusing exploits must not be considered the status quo and standard, and I hope there will be less of these issues in the next * Souls title. I am well over 200 hours into playing Dark Souls, and I do enjoy some PVP action every now and then. I prefer to help people as a Sun Bro Sis, and I do enjoy going after folks that switched off the lights in Anor Londo. I also have one char that's all about invading and taunting high level human opponents that pretty much feels like Call of Souls, messing with people's strategies and heads, no matter how much support they summon up.

When people put up some effort to handle Dark Souls with the respect it deserves, and when they agree that PVP should involve some bits of honour and wanting to be the better man/woman/undead, I think PVP in Dark Souls can be anywhere from OK to awesome. Hide yourself as the flowerpot assassin, go straight at your opponent and do a gentle bow before you attempt to hack them to bits and toast their remains to instant beef jerky. You can already have it your way in a number of ways, making it 'more accessible' and dumbing it down is not a way I think could bring much good to the franchise. In fact, dumbing it down, even if it's just optional, would probably kill off the franchise instantly.

 

[krazykidd]

We got enough easy games to last a lifetime . People that want that can go play the wide array of games for them . This is a game for the challenge seekers. Niche , if you will.

Really? I played both Souls games because I liked the level design, the art style, the world, and the atmosphere, not because I wanted a challenge. Guess I must have been playing the games wrong, then...

It's a game for people that want a challenge , doesn't mean others can't play it and apreciate other aspects of it . I do have to wonder though , would the game have sold as well if it was easier or had an easy mode . I mean " you will die, a lot " is kind of the main gimmick which ,in my opinion , is what made people curious enough to try it . Demon's souls did sell well enough to at least warrant a sequel,wouldn't removing that make it more bland? What do you think( this isn't sarcasm , i am truly interested in your thoughts on this )?

 

[BreakfastMan]

We got enough easy games to last a lifetime . People that want that can go play the wide array of games for them . This is a game for the challenge seekers. Niche , if you will.

Really? I played both Souls games because I liked the level design, the art style, the world, and the atmosphere, not because I wanted a challenge. Guess I must have been playing the games wrong, then...

It's a game for people that want a challenge , doesn't mean others can't play it and apreciate other aspects of it . I do have to wonder though , would the game have sold as well if it was easier or had an easy mode . I mean " you will die, a lot " is kind of the main gimmick which ,in my opinion , is what made people curious enough to try it . Demon's souls did sell well enough to at least warrant a sequel,wouldn't removing that make it more bland? What do you think( this isn't sarcasm , i am truly interested in your thoughts on this )?

Well, I didn't think that the game was for those that wanted a challenge; just like it's spiritual predecessor, King's Field, I thought the game was for those that wanted an atmospheric, dark fantasy/horror game with an air of oppression and desperation about it. The difficulty just added to that atmosphere, and people a lot of people who love challenging games (there are a fair number, I don't deny) latched onto that.

As for what I think about the whole "Dark Souls easy difficulty mode" thing? I think it matters as much as the easy mode in XCOM:EU: none at all, if done right.

 

[Bealzibob]

I'd much prefer a hard mode. Challenged runs are fun and all but self-imposed rules will never compare to what can be achieved with actual development. A easy mode is pointless, perhaps a slightly smoother difficulty curve and more conscientious level design for the first 5 areas might be a bit better. I think everyone spent the first hour dieing constantly to the skeletons and that's a problem from a design standpoint not from a conceptual one. Aiming for the high difficulty niche is not an excuse for bad design but in fact quite the opposite.

 

[UnmotivatedSlacker]

I've recently started playing Dark Souls again. I've gotten a lot farther this time than before my game got stolen. I like co-op mode and I'm a Sunbro... at least I was until after Gaping Dragon. Now I'm level 70 in Anor Londo and I can't be a Sunbro here... not many get to see my glorious golden phantom.

Also, Ornstein has been wrecking my face. I can take out Smough easy enough, but Ornstein is messing my face right up. I'm currently working on that. Maybe some Pyromancy... maybe some Quelaag's Furysword.

Super Ornstein is easy, just his hug nuts and roll away when he's doing the buttstomp and it doesn't hurt to have a high stability shield like the balder or eagle shields. Most of his attacks should sail right over you as long you stay close. Also what weapon are you using?

My issue with Dark Souls wasn't so much in the difficulty, as it was in the half-second delay between player movement and player-input. And the fact that every enemy can break your guard and hack you to pieces before you can say "What the..."

Cheap, not hard, is the word most people are looking for.

I actually didn't know that players could invade someone else's game until it happened to me. Some prick walked right in and hacked me to pieces. Thank you Hewlett Packard for putting a "Disable Router" button right on my keyboard. Showed that little bastard when he got insta-booted from my game because I was no longer connected to the internet.

I see all of the same crap come from people who don't want easy mode. The same bullshit about "Developer intentions" and "You'll get a crappy experience!"

Two things.

1. Easy Mode isn't being made for you. Suck it up.
2. Why the fuck do either of those matter in a community that so readily embraces modding and unofficial patches.

Yeah, I'd like a hard game too. But difficulty is not throwing yourself at a wall and hoping this time you'll break it down. Within reason, maybe. But this isn't difficulty. This is on par with NES games, which did this kind of thing to pad out their runtime (Ninja Gaiden can be beaten in 20 minutes if you know what you're doing). Challenge should be given to the player in increments.

This is not even close to a good game. This is perhaps the first game I can easily say is completley horrible.

If your guard is getting broken that easily, you either need to increase your stamina or get a higher stability shield or both. Aside from a few instances(Bed of Chaos, I'm looking at you), the game is pretty fair. And really dude, shutting off your router because you didn't face an invader? You didn't show that guy anything except that you're afraid of pvp. If you don't want to get invaded, play offline. As for easy mode, see Rooster's post above. If you're throwing yourself at a wall, you're doing it wrong. Take a step back and observe your enemies and surroundings, just rushing them will get you killed most of the time. Try pulling one enemy at a time if they're in a group. Learn their patterns, perhaps their susceptible to parry's or backstabs. And don't forget to upgrade your gear if you feel you aren't doing enough damage.

 

[Pebkio]

Super Ornstein is easy, just his hug nuts and roll away when he's doing the buttstomp and it doesn't hurt to have a high stability shield like the balder or eagle shields. Most of his attacks should sail right over you as long you stay close. Also what weapon are you using?

No no... the buttslam is Smough's move. Big fat guy with the hammer that tries to sit on you: That's Smough. Smough is super easy and I eat his health for breakfast, nom nom. It's his spear-wielding, super-fast, cheap-combo-using partner that is wrecking my face.

I'm fast, and I can dodge most of his nonsense when he's normal size, but when he's twice as big and his reach is massive, I can't dodge fast enough to not die.

I'm using the Astora's Straight Sword +5. I also like to use lightning spears lesser and greater. I have a faith/dex build so I can't exactly use a high-poise shield. Queelag's Furysword +4 let me down as it's got this mighty pause to swing a friggin' dex-based sword. What a waste of souls. I'm currently working on ascending a +15 pyromancy glove.

Mmm... souls seem so plentiful...

True enough, I could probably kick Super Smough's slow ass, but I'd have to be able to kill Ornstein first which is currently taking too long, and the two of them get me eventually if I don't kill someone fast enough. Which is why I'm looking into Pyromancy now, I hear Ornstein is weak to fire. Which is good because he soaks my lightning damage.