Dark Souls - I'm Prepared To Die (Again)

[vallorn]

Lore question: if Gwynevere (Gwyndolin) wanted me to have the Lord Vessel and link the fire, then why did she (he) allow her (his) pitbulls O&S to try and stop me from getting it?

It's a test of strength. You're only 1 of a long string of "chosen" undead who have been swindled into trying to link the fire. O&S are there as a barrier so only someone capable of taking down Gwyn and his band of misfits gets their hands on the Lord Vessel and continues the quest.

At least that's how I see it.

That would make a certain amount of sense, but brings about another question: if Gwyn sacrificed himself to the flame... then who are we fighting in the Kiln of the First Flame? He's looking pretty good for someone supposedly with 104-degree burns. Why can't he sacrifice himself again? Has he gone hollow?

It would seem Gwyn, Gwyndolin and Frampt all want the same thing; why does it seem Frampt and Gwyndolin are plotting against Gwyn?

It leads onto what hollowing IS. Hollowing is the loss of the person's soul, humans can hollow through the Undead Curse which means they lose a bit of their soul each time they die and have to replenish it by feeding shards of the Dark Soul to the fire (since bonfires are linked to the First Flame). Gods like the Gwyn Family don't have the curse, but they can still hollow if they lose their soul, and that's what linking the fire is, you offer yourself, your very soul as fuel for the First Flame, and you burn that soul to prolong the Age Of Fire. Gwyn's body hasn't burned, but his soul is burned away until he's a Hollow, a husk, a Pygmy like all the humanoid beings were before the first flame (the pygmies are the "They" in the "and then from the dark They came, and found the souls of lords within the flame", where 'The Dark' may mean The Abyss because it seems to have existed before Manus (His name in Japanese better translates to Patriarch/Head Of The Abyss which implies he's not the originator but, instead, the current ruler of it) as Basilisks and Serpents both have a connection to it and they predate Oolacile.)

It's because Gwyn has gone hollow that Gwyndolin, Frampt, Etc are pushing Undead to link the fire, his soul has burned out, there's no fuel left for The First Flame inside of Gwyn, so they need a replacement, someone who has absorbed tons of 'soul energy' and is thus powerful enough to sustain the fire. This is why they want the strongest 'Chosen Undead' possible, because the more powerful you are, the longer you will burn for. The 'Bells Of Awakening', Sen's Funhouse, Pikachu & Snorlax, etc are there to weed out the weak or those without the ability to push through and become strong before they are given The Lordvessel. Then, the quest to get the souls needed to open the Kiln means that you need to become even stronger after that. It may also be because the Lords never wanted people to mess with the Kiln in the first place, and so made it so that they would all need to be present and, thus, in consensus before they opened it up, hence why only with the souls of Gwynn, Nito, and Quela (Fan name for The Witch that follows from the same naming convention as Gwyn and his kids. Gwyn, Gwyndolin, Gwynnevere. Quela, Quelanna, Quelaag.) present can the kiln be opened at all (the shards given to Seath + the shards from the 4 Kings are about enough to satisfy the presence of Gwyn's soul).

Anyway, hope that lore dump helped.

 

[Xprimentyl]

Kudos to the well-versed loreticians and loreologists up in here.

 

[vallorn]

Kudos to the well-versed loreticians and loreologists up in here.

Blame Plague Of Gripes. His LP is long but that's because it's ridiculously deep into the lore... "What is the significance of this pile of bricks!?" etc. What's better? He usually manages to actually make a very good case for some significance to small assets like that.

 

[Xprimentyl]

Kudos to the well-versed loreticians and loreologists up in here.

Blame Plague Of Gripes. His LP is long but that's because it's ridiculously deep into the lore... "What is the significance of this pile of bricks!?" etc. What's better? He usually manages to actually make a very good case for some significance to small assets like that.

I gotta start watching more of them. I wonder what Miyazaki thinks of it all...one of those "I've created a monster" things hehe.

 

[Dalisclock]

Gwyn's body hasn't burned, but his soul is burned away until he's a Hollow, a husk, a Pygmy like all the humanoid beings were before the first flame (the pygmies are the "They" in the "and then from the dark They came, and found the souls of lords within the flame", where 'The Dark' may mean The Abyss because it seems to have existed before Manus (His name in Japanese better translates to Patriarch/Head Of The Abyss which implies he's not the originator but, instead, the current ruler of it) as Basilisks and Serpents both have a connection to it and they predate Oolacile.)

It's because Gwyn has gone hollow that Gwyndolin, Frampt, Etc are pushing Undead to link the fire, his soul has burned out, there's no fuel left for The First Flame inside of Gwyn, so they need a replacement, someone who has absorbed tons of 'soul energy' and is thus powerful enough to sustain the fire. This is why they want the strongest 'Chosen Undead' possible, because the more powerful you are, the longer you will burn for. The 'Bells Of Awakening', Sen's Funhouse, Pikachu & Snorlax, etc are there to weed out the weak or those without the ability to push through and become strong before they are given The Lordvessel. Then, the quest to get the souls needed to open the Kiln means that you need to become even stronger after that. It may also be because the Lords never wanted people to mess with the Kiln in the first place, and so made it so that they would all need to be present and, thus, in consensus before they opened it up, hence why only with the souls of Gwynn, Nito, and Quela (Fan name for The Witch that follows from the same naming convention as Gwyn and his kids. Gwyn, Gwyndolin, Gwynnevere. Quela, Quelanna, Quelaag.) present can the kiln be opened at all (the shards given to Seath + the shards from the 4 Kings are about enough to satisfy the presence of Gwyn's soul).

Anyway, hope that lore dump helped.

I thought the bequeathed souls from Seethe and the 4 kings were parts of Gwyns soul? Gwyn is directly mentioned in the descriptions. Oh, never mind. I just reread what you said. My bad.

Speaking of Manus, is there any official confirmation that he and the pygmy are the same? I know that's the accepted theory but as far as I know there's no definitive link. It's like the whole "Were O+S in Anor Londo real or not?" debate which is kind of obnoxious no matter how you slice it.

Honestly, playing DS2 I kind of miss the lore of DS. 2 is kind of all over the place in the lore department, almost as much as dranlegic itself is.

 

[Xprimentyl]

Duh; Gwyn is hollow, you dummy!

I was going to be kind, but yeah, way to miss the forest for the tress, Einstein.

What, seriously? You didn't know Gwyn was hollow, jackass??

Sheesh, moron; do you even know what "hollowing" IS? Need me to draw you a picture??

Your patience with this slack-jawed idiot is most admirable, folks.

Ok, Gwyn being hollow helps it all make a LOT more sense; ?well-versed loreticians and loreologists,? indeed; great stuff! Thank you all! Poor Gwyn, though, hell. Sucks to be you, dude? Any Football fans in here? This is vaguely reminiscent of What the Dallas Cowboys are going through with quarterbacks Tony Romo and Dak Prescott: the Cowboys have had Romo as the starting QB for 11 seasons, and despite his being a very talented QB, they?ve never been able to capitalize on it. Fast-forward to the start of the 2016 season, and veteran Romo went down with his third or fourth back injury during the pre-season, and rookie Prescott had to take the reins leading the Cowboys to their best season in over a decade, almost made it to the Super Bowl. Now, Romo?s job is on the line, basically gone despite all his efforts; Lord Romo?s flame is fading and the Chosen Prescott is stepping up to rekindle the fire?

I thought the bequeathed souls from Seethe and the 4 kings were parts of Gwyns soul? Gwyn is directly mentioned in the descriptions. Oh, never mind. I just reread what you said. My bad.

Speaking of Manus, is there any official confirmation that he and the pygmy are the same? I know that's the accepted theory but as far as I know there's no definitive link. It's like the whole "Were O+S in Anor Londo real or not?" debate which is kind of obnoxious no matter how you slice it.

Honestly, playing DS2 I kind of miss the lore of DS. 2 is kind of all over the place in the lore department, almost as much as dranlegic itself is.

I think the Souls bequeathed to Seath and the Four Kings were parts of the Lord Soul Gwyn found in the Fire along with Nito, The Witch of Izalith and the Furtive Pygmy.

As for Manus being the Furtive Pygmy? I believe he is ("was" since I kicked his ass.) It'd make sense seeing as the game introduces us to all the other major players; the Furtive Pygmy is the only one we don't confront in Vanilla Souls.

 

[Xprimentyl]

And Kalameet?

I?m thinking REALLY hard about skipping Kalameet. Unlike every other boss who I was able to beat my head against until I learned enough to break through, Kalameet isn?t giving me an inch. He?s the superlative of size, strength and speed; even on my best runs, I?m lucky to hit him 3 maybe 4 times, and considering it?ll probably take me 25-30 hits with my best weapon, my prospects don?t look good. I?ve tried all my best weapons, lighter armor, flame protection buffs, physical protection buffs, everything; NOTHING is working. I can dodge him pretty well if I?m far away, but since I?m a melee build, I need to be close to do damage, and that?s his absolute favorite; he?s got an insta-kill radius of about 15 feet. Locking on is a huge issue; the ?lock-on? target is his center mass which is about 10 feet above me, so it doesn?t help a guy with a 3 foot sword trying to hit his ankles; about the only good thing about locking on is it ensures I?m always facing him and am thus able to tank some attacks. When I don?t lock on, I?m left vulnerable to his devastating physical attacks and I?m not able to tell when he goes airborne and is telegraphing that one-hitter downward fire attack. The only thing I haven?t tried yet is Power Within. I didn?t know Eingyi could upgrade my Pyromancer?s Flame, so I upgraded it to +15 for Power Within last night (and I just now checked the wiki to find the damage boost doesn?t scale with the upgraded Flame, goddamn it, that was expensive.) Maybe the boost can bring my needed attacks down to 15-20 versus the 25-30, but that?s still 5 times as many as I?ve been able to manage? sigh? I feel like I need some OP magic, and seeing as my Intelligence stat is a laughable 8 or 9, I?ve NO Attunement slots and Soul Levels are costing me about 70k apiece now, it?s not really feasible to try and tank up for sorceries now.

I?m just thankful Kalameet?s an optional boss. If you had to go through him to progress the story, it?d be game-breaking. I want to beat him, but I highly doubt it?s going to be with this character.

 

[Dalisclock]

As for Manus being the Furtive Pygmy? I believe he is ("was" since I kicked his ass.) It'd make sense seeing as the game introduces us to all the other major players; the Furtive Pygmy is the only one we don't confront in Vanilla Souls.

Oh, I totally agree that it's probably true and it's a very plausible theory. I was just wondering if there's some official piece of lore or director commentary or something that confirms it.

 

[Xprimentyl]

It sounds like you're really overthinking this whole Kalameet thing. He's a bastard, and what do you, Chosen Undead do to bastards?

You put them down

Hawkeye already did half the work for you, and he's looking forward to you reporting back with the good news. If you made it this far you'll find a workable strategy. Go <25% if need be, and use Mask of Child + Cloranthy ring to boost stamina. Depending on your Vitality you might even get away with the Grass Crest shield on top of those. Do you have the Ring of Favor and Protection?

Avoid locking on because this whole fight is about getting positional advantage, which means being constantly on the go looking for an opening and being ready to book it when needed. Don't even pay attention to his bar; only to what he's doing, and what you'll do to get around him.

 

[Xprimentyl]

It sounds like you're really overthinking this whole Kalameet thing. He's a bastard, and what do you, Chosen Undead do to bastards?

You put them down

Hawkeye already did half the work for you, and he's looking forward to you reporting back with the good news. If you made it this far you'll find a workable strategy. Go <25% if need be, and use Mask of Child + Cloranthy ring to boost stamina. Depending on your Vitality you might even get away with the Grass Crest shield on top of those. Do you have the Ring of Favor and Protection?

Avoid locking on because this whole fight is about getting positional advantage, which means being constantly on the go looking for an opening and being ready to book it when needed. Don't even pay attention to his bar; only to what he's doing, and what you'll do to get around him.

Ha! Technically, I was "Chosen" to deal with Gwyn's mess, and THAT I'm pretty sure I can handle; nobody "chose" this undead to be an omnipotent ancient dragon exterminator!

But seriously, I am going to look for some videos of the Kalameet fight with melee builds to see if there's anything new I can divine, but I honestly think Kalameet was specifically designed to test the most skilled Dark Souls players, those of you who can confidently run around bare-ass naked, eschew shields in lieu of two-handing weapons, exploit invincibility frames and dodge-roll all over the place. I don't think he was designed with players like me in mind, we lily-livered pansies who spend 99% of each fight cowering behind a 100% Physical defense shield silently wishing there was a diplomatic solution.

Sanctuary Guardian, Artorias and Manus were more difficult than all other Vanilla Souls bosses, particularly due to their speed and increased move sets, but they at least adhered to the rules we'd learned and been following up to that point in the game, albeit at a much faster pace. Experienced players know those rules, can work around them and even bend them; average players learn those rules and are able to work through them. Kalameet has his OWN rules. On the surface, they appear to be the same rules as everyone else's, but it's soon pretty evident that his rules are meant to put the skilled players back into learning mode and put we average majority on the fastest thing moving back to the main quest line.

 

[vallorn]

It sounds like you're really overthinking this whole Kalameet thing. He's a bastard, and what do you, Chosen Undead do to bastards?

You put them down

Hawkeye already did half the work for you, and he's looking forward to you reporting back with the good news. If you made it this far you'll find a workable strategy. Go <25% if need be, and use Mask of Child + Cloranthy ring to boost stamina. Depending on your Vitality you might even get away with the Grass Crest shield on top of those. Do you have the Ring of Favor and Protection?

Avoid locking on because this whole fight is about getting positional advantage, which means being constantly on the go looking for an opening and being ready to book it when needed. Don't even pay attention to his bar; only to what he's doing, and what you'll do to get around him.

Ha! Technically, I was "Chosen" to deal with Gwyn's mess, and THAT I'm pretty sure I can handle; nobody "chose" this undead to be an omnipotent ancient dragon exterminator!

But seriously, I am going to look for some videos of the Kalameet fight with melee builds to see if there's anything new I can divine, but I honestly think Kalameet was specifically designed to test the most skilled Dark Souls players, those of you who can confidently run around bare-ass naked, eschew shields in lieu of two-handing weapons, exploit invincibility frames and dodge-roll all over the place. I don't think he was designed with players like me in mind, we lily-livered pansies who spend 99% of each fight cowering behind a 100% Physical defense shield silently wishing there was a diplomatic solution.

Sanctuary Guardian, Artorias and Manus were more difficult than all other Vanilla Souls bosses, particularly due to their speed and increased move sets, but they at least adhered to the rules we'd learned and been following up to that point in the game, albeit at a much faster pace. Experienced players know those rules, can work around them and even bend them; average players learn those rules and are able to work through them. Kalameet has his OWN rules. On the surface, they appear to be the same rules as everyone else's, but it's soon pretty evident that his rules are meant to put the skilled players back into learning mode and put we average majority on the fastest thing moving back to the main quest line.

Dark Souls bosses are always a matter of practice. One of the best things you can do is to spend at least one fight just learning the moveset, focussing on avoiding his moves and not trying to get attacks in. If you die, it doesn't matter, the whole purpose is not to kill the boss, but to perfect your blocking and dodging so that when you get to your final run you have many less problems.

There's an optional boss in DS3 who has some really bullshit moves like Special K. The Nameless King is a brutal boss who flies around and does all sorts of ranged and smashing attacks like Special K does, he's a pain in the ass to fight. But, after a few goes and then a break, a friend and I came back to that fight and we aced it. And I quote "When did this boss become easy?".

 

[vallorn]

Also, if you need more motivation, check out some of the souls music and AMVs out there:


P.S. Gwyn can be parried. He's a giant enemy crab, parry his weakpoint for massive damage.

 

[Dalisclock]

Also, if you need more motivation, check out some of the souls music and AMVs out there:


P.S. Gwyn can be parried. He's a giant enemy crab, parry his weakpoint for massive damage.

I was gonna suggest the jolly alternative, but I forgot that's not an option for the OP.

BTW, Kudos for the video. I discovered that a few months ago and love it(despite a canon inconsistency here and there), but I've been trying not to annoy people by spamming it.

 

[Xprimentyl]

I wonder why that video is rated so low...I get the music might not be the best fit, but it's far from unwatchable.

 

[vallorn]

I wonder why that video is rated so low...I get the music might not be the best fit, but it's far from unwatchable.

It's a copy of the original video. I posted it because the original has had its audio muted by Youtube for using that song.

 

[vallorn]

I was wondering OP. Are you planning to go after another Dark Souls game after you beat this one? If so, I suggest flat out ignoring Dark Souls 2. The story has almost no connection with the other games and reads more like fanfiction than a proper continuation of the story. This is probably because the lead director of the game was opposed to making it a Dark Souls game and From Software had to wrest control from him and give it to someone else who had to try and salvage the game into a playable Dark Souls state. It's not necessarily a bad game but it lacks the sparkle and amazing world that made Dark Souls what it was. Bloodbone and Dark Souls 3 on the other hand do capture that zing, Bloodborne's early levels have that same looping shortcut system that makes DS1's world feel open and interconnected and Dark Souls 3 has much of the same even if at times it feels more like a linear quest than the free roaming exploration of DS1. I'd heavily suggest just skipping Dark Souls 2 entirely and playing Dark Souls 3 instead, you'd have a lot more fun with it and you would probably have less headscratching questions about the lore that DS2 tries to shovel at you (Seriously, in Scholar of the First Sin they just flat out gave up and tried to tell you what's going on instead of letting the world teach you like DS1 did).

 

[Fox12]

I'd recommend Bloodborne or Demon Soul's as well, once you've thoroughly explored DS1. Of course, you may also want to give New Game Plus a shot.

 

[vallorn]

I'd recommend Bloodborne or Demon Soul's as well, once you've thoroughly explored DS1. Of course, you may also want to give New Game Plus a shot.

Demons Souls has some of the flat out best music in the series and it's the progenitor of the whole Soulsborne brand so there is something magical about it. I would still recommend Dark Souls 3 as it's a good sequel to Dark Souls and gathers many of the same feelings and themes together perfectly. It really seems to capture alot of the metaphysics of the world in a way that DS2 skips over in favour of the eastern trope of 'infinite cycles'.

Moving into the nature of the soul. What is the Dark Soul? It's physicality, matter, heaviness. It grants us the strongest, most passionate, most violent emotions, we feel envy, or perhaps love, to our fellow Man and thus we are poisonous towards one another. The Light soul on the other hand is grandeur, heroics, glory. Ephemeral things but glorious nonetheless, it is the part of the soul that drives us to build monuments and seek immortality. The Life and Death souls are the most enigmatic, we know that Chaos is Life running wild, transforming the unliving Stone into flesh as the oolacilians transform stone into wood (Look at the Stone Guardian weapons, there's a transition there where the stone becomes wood and the wood becomes stone). While, the Death soul not only seems to be about endings but also about necromancy, the control of things once dead and the ability to provide a soul to things that don't have one.

Curses are different though, they sever us from our regular balance of the soul by forcing neutrality upon us, this follows from the theme of neutrality as stone, the dragons and the like, all the stone beings existed in a neutral state, and being cursed returns us to this neutral state, forcing us to become stone again.

Anyway, that's a bit of impromptu rambling about the nature of the soul in Dark Souls. It's not the best description out there but it's definitely better than whatever Dark Souls 2 cooked up.

 

[Fox12]

I'd recommend Bloodborne or Demon Soul's as well, once you've thoroughly explored DS1. Of course, you may also want to give New Game Plus a shot.

Demons Souls has some of the flat out best music in the series and it's the progenitor of the whole Soulsborne brand so there is something magical about it. I would still recommend Dark Souls 3 as it's a good sequel to Dark Souls and gathers many of the same feelings and themes together perfectly. It really seems to capture al lot of the metaphysics of the world in a way that DS1 skips over in favour of the eastern trope of 'infinite cycles'. What is the Dark Soul? It's physicality, matter, heaviness. It grants us the strongest, most passionate, most violent emotions, we feel envy, or p, perhaps love to our fellow Man and thus we are poisonous towards one another. The Light soul on the other hand is grandeur, heroics, glory. Ephemeral things but glorious nonetheless, it is the part of the soul that drives us to build monuments and seek immortality. The Life and Death souls are the most enigmatic, we know that Chaos is Life running wild, transforming the unliving Stone into flesh as the oolacilians transform stone into wood (Look at the Stone Guardian weapons, there's a transition there where the stone becomes wood and the wood becomes stone). While, the Death soul not only seems to be about endings but also about necromancy, the control of things once dead and the ability to provide a soul to things that don't have one.

Curses are different though, they sever us from our regular balance of the soul by forcing neutrality upon us, this follows from the theme of neutrality as stone, the dragons and the like, all the stone beings existed in a neutral state, and being cursed returns us to this neutral state, forcing us to become stone again.

Anyway, that's a bit of impromptu rambling about the nature of the soul in Dark Souls. It's not the best description out there but it's definitely better than whatever Dark Souls 2 cooked up.

Yeah, Dark Soul's 3 had some great stuff in it. Much better then two overall. I mainly like Demon Soul's and Bloodborne because they have the same great game play, but have their own distinct identities. Bloodborne's probably the most similar game to Dark Soul's one, despite not being a direct sequel.

Also, OP may not have a PS4. In that case, Demon Soul's is the way to go.

 

[vallorn]

I'd recommend Bloodborne or Demon Soul's as well, once you've thoroughly explored DS1. Of course, you may also want to give New Game Plus a shot.

Demons Souls has some of the flat out best music in the series and it's the progenitor of the whole Soulsborne brand so there is something magical about it. I would still recommend Dark Souls 3 as it's a good sequel to Dark Souls and gathers many of the same feelings and themes together perfectly. It really seems to capture al lot of the metaphysics of the world in a way that DS1 skips over in favour of the eastern trope of 'infinite cycles'. What is the Dark Soul? It's physicality, matter, heaviness. It grants us the strongest, most passionate, most violent emotions, we feel envy, or p, perhaps love to our fellow Man and thus we are poisonous towards one another. The Light soul on the other hand is grandeur, heroics, glory. Ephemeral things but glorious nonetheless, it is the part of the soul that drives us to build monuments and seek immortality. The Life and Death souls are the most enigmatic, we know that Chaos is Life running wild, transforming the unliving Stone into flesh as the oolacilians transform stone into wood (Look at the Stone Guardian weapons, there's a transition there where the stone becomes wood and the wood becomes stone). While, the Death soul not only seems to be about endings but also about necromancy, the control of things once dead and the ability to provide a soul to things that don't have one.

Curses are different though, they sever us from our regular balance of the soul by forcing neutrality upon us, this follows from the theme of neutrality as stone, the dragons and the like, all the stone beings existed in a neutral state, and being cursed returns us to this neutral state, forcing us to become stone again.

Anyway, that's a bit of impromptu rambling about the nature of the soul in Dark Souls. It's not the best description out there but it's definitely better than whatever Dark Souls 2 cooked up.

Yeah, Dark Soul's 3 had some great stuff in it. Much better then two overall. I mainly like Demon Soul's and Bloodborne because they have the same great game play, but have their own distinct identities. Bloodborne's probably the most similar game to Dark Soul's one, despite not being a direct sequel.

Also, OP may not have a PS4. In that case, Demon Soul's is the way to go.

Except that the PC version of DS3 is the best PC game in the series. DS1 is a really janky port. It works but it's obviously held together with hopes and duct tape. DS2 isn't must better. But DS3 works really smoothly on PC aside from the odd crash or weird framerate drop.