Dawn of War II or Starcraft II?

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Danceofmasks

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If you're looking for a single player experience, maybe look into some older titles?

Warlords Battlecry 3 was a lot of fun, but it suffers horribly from balance issues (hence multiplayer sucks).

Sacrifice is probably very dated by now, I don't think it supports widescreen. But, it's one of the most amazing RTS experiences ever. Mainly 'cos it's a first person RTS.
To play it well requires a lot of micro skills, though. Most of my friends never finished the game due to its difficulty.

Hmm. I own a lot of RTS games, but for some reason nothing else jumps into my head right now.
I'll post more if I can think of them.
 

Rastrelly

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Mar 19, 2011
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Both SCII and DOWII:R are built around multiplayer battles. DOWII requires somehow less micro due to less objects you have to control, but at the same time it needs much more concentration on tactics: your forces are low on numbers and grow stronger by gathering experience. DOWII is much closer to WCIII gameplay, but with control points as main game objectives and base building. Campaign story in DOWII:R is quite good. There is a different story for each race, and all factions interact during all the campaign. On the other hand by switching race in singleplayer you do not change the map and real mission objectives (they are explained by ABSOLUTELY different reasons, but hell - remove dialogues, and this will be SAME mission with another race). Between missions you upgrade your heroes and units and spend gathered XP. SCII hase much more fun campaign mode - all missions are different and require a full tactics switch. Between missions, again, you upgrade your army for gathered money and research points. On the other hand, while DOWII gives you awesom writing and boring missions, SCII gives awesom missions and DUMB storyline with not just plotholes... It's friggin' plot BLACK HOLES and tonnes of naive idiocy about revolutions and stuff. It seems Blizzard forgot to read "Moon is the harsh mistress" before starting a revolutionary storyline... Multiplayer gameplay in SCII is thrice faster then in DOWII and requires gigatons of micro, but it's really fun and quite comfortable. It's basics did not change from original SC.

Overall I find SCII and DOWII:R quite equal.
 

Waaghpowa

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Fiend13 said:
Cover and suppression are equal to terrain mechanics in SC2, meaning your positioning on either the high or the low ground may give the edge or even let you set up a contain.
I don't really think that's true. Advantages in terrain are basically a given as far as most RTS games are concerned, having a high point with ranged units firing on units below, of course there's going to be an edge. What I mean is that DOW2 takes into account debris and other parts of terrain as a form of cover for reducing incoming damage. Not simply buildings or cliffs etc, but things like craters caused by explosives during battle and destroyed tanks can be used as cover. In Starcraft II, aside from High ground, low ground and Line of sight I don't see much else. DOW2 makes it feel like your units are actual soldiers fighting on a real battlefield, when Starcraft is clearly just a game. If you were to make an RTS game based on commanding US Marines, would the Starcraft design work? Not so much.

That's my take on it, Starcraft feels more arcade while DOW2 could be turned into a sim.

I like both Starcraft and Dawn of War 2, but I prefer DOW2 because having resources and building structures in a middle of the warzone just seems off to me.

Edit: forgot to mention that terrain actually gets destroyed during battle if explosives get involved, meaning that your nice piece of cover will probably turn to dust and force you to move your units elsewhere. Tanks will also destroy terrain if you're not careful about where they move.
 

Meestor Pickle

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Can't say I enjoy either starcraft 1\2 or DoW2, love the first ones to death.

Total Annilation is one of the best RTS's in my opinion, it is however very old. Similar game being the supreme commanders but not nearly as good.

EDIT: Wesnoth is also great (and its free :D )
 

jovack22

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Starcraft 2 all the way

(ignore the potential bias from the hydra in my avatar)
 

Frankster

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Single player wise both games have great campaigns so can't go wrong either way.

Sc2: Traditional rts style game, you build your base and make units, story is well presented and you can upgrade your troops between battles.

Dow2:No base building, the focus is on tactical combat, has the GREAT advantage of the campaign having coop.
Between missions you can level your squad leaders level like rpg characters and the ace in the hole, is all the gear you pick up which might appeal to your diablo-esque hoarding urges. You finish the campaign with an army's worth of ancient relics and holy armor/weaponry ^^

Slightly prefer dow2 cos of the loot, but either way, you can't go wrong.
 

Spoonius

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I really like DoW2.

The gameplay is highly tactical (destructible cover, garrisonable structures, directional weapon teams, suppression/pinning, weapon and wargear upgrades, unit-specific abilities, etc), and the campaign is very RPG-like. You have several different protagonists, each in charge of their own specialised squad, and as they gain experience you can specialise them in almost any way you want, putting points into skill trees and outfitting them with a wide variety of weapons, armour and equipment accessories (such as frag and stun grenades, stimpacks, demo charges, etc.).

I haven't played much of the campaign yet (enough to know that I like it a lot though), but I often play Last Stand, which is a game-type where you and two other heroes (one option for each race, so five as of now) battle against waves of NPC enemies, unlocking weapons and wargear as you advance in level.

Some fans of the original were a little disappointed by the direction DoW2 took (in that it threw out large-scale engagements and base building), but I like both DoW games. Each offers the player something different about the 40k universe, which I love. I haven't played the Chaos Rising or Retribution expansions yet, but be aware that they exist.

If you decide that you aren't a fan of DoW2 or 40k, you could also look into CoH, as Octafish mentioned above. Both are fantastic games, and well worth their price.
 

Eclectic Dreck

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On the strength of single player alone, Starcraft 2 gets my vote. The lengthy campaign in Dawn of War simply isn't varied enough to hold the attention for long and its skirmish options are rather terrible as the AI is painfully stupid even at the hardest settings. If you consider multiplayer, I tend to prefer Dawn of War 2's slower pace of play. The game asks you to do far less management leaving you to easily focus on careful micromanagement of a handful of units. The downside of course is, at this point, the players of Dawn of War 2 are generally quite good at the game and the initial learning curve can be brutal.
 

Joccaren

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Mar 29, 2011
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Starcraft. It follows my favourite 'style' (not sure what else to call it) of difficulty: Easy to learn, hard to master. The story is almost Hollywood styled, and thus is terrible, but the missions are quite different in their goals and rather fun to play.
Each of the three races play completely differently, with different types of units for all three (Yes, they all have the basic light unit, then the basic heavy unit, but even these are rather different from each other)
The Terrans play the closest to most RTS races: Normal units have few active abilities, and their building style follows the classic 'tell worker to build, he builds, he sits around until you tell him what to do). They build all their units from buildings, and the only really special thing I'd say about them is their ability to lift of their building and fly it elsewhere. Oh, and they also have the only dedicated healer unit in the game (Yes, the Zerg queen can heal, but thats not its primary purpose)
The Protoss are the next most similar. They focus on fewer, specialised soldiers whilst having the most types of units of any race. They are arguably the weakest race at the start of the game, but if you make it to end-game: They are unstoppable. Their workers work differently to the Terran's: they place a building, then wait for you to tell them to do something else whilst the building builds itself. All units are built from buildings, but later in the game you can warp all infantry units to a power source (Pylon or deployed warp prism) instead of building them to get them instantly onto the field or build your army in an enemies base. (The units being warped are being built. It takes around 2-3 seconds to warp in, and has a cooldown for each unit. Good if you need an instant army though).
The Zerg play differently to any other race I have seen in RTSs. They focus on swarm tactics, using a lot of units to overwhelm the enemy, however, you need to have built the right units or else they will be annihilated (By the right units I mean counters to enemy units, not 'mass unit X to win'). Their workers are consumed in the process of building a building, but they only need one of each building anyway (excluding the main base, more than one is required for a fast return rate [one per base is fine. With the other buildings you can have one per game{so long as you replace it if it is destroyed}]). Units are not built by buildings. Instead, the buildings provide the technology for the units (upgrades are purchased from the building, but just having the building will allow you to build the unit. Not having one of the building will not let you build one of the unit), whilst automatically spawning (until a maximum of three, unless a queen is used) non-usable (except for making units) units morph into the unit type you choose. They also can only build on a substance known as creep that is spread from their main building, creep tumours created by a queen, and by overlords spewing it out.

Strategy falls into two categories: Micro and Macro
Micro involves using your units and their abilities to have a more efficient force on the battlefield. Tactics such as placing units on higher ground, moving low-health units back and having full health units 'tank', and having specialist units use their abilities at the right time and place are in this category, as is army movement and, to an extent, worker management (although a lot of this falls into macro).
Macro involves the building of you base, economy and army to maximise effectiveness. Tactics involving the number of workers to build, when to build them, what buildings to build and when to build them, and building units to counter your opponents fall into this category, as does resource management.

The game is fast paced, so most who haven't played it see it as either really simple, or really difficult (depending on whether they see the smaller tactics that go into playing, and not just the building of the units and using their abilities, there is far more to it then that). However, all that they are seeing of one of the two sides of the easy to learn, hard to master difficulty. You can pick up the game and play to win against easy and normal AIs in seconds, and the campaign on normal is an absolute cakewalk. However, if you want to play competitively at a high level (Multiplayer works in leagues, which you are placed in according to your skill level. The worst players are in bronze [or maybe they added copper, I'm not sure] whilst the best are in Diamond. The best of the best are in Master and Grandmaster leagues) or defeat insane AI, you WILL have to learn the more subtle gameplay mechanics.

I have not played any Dawn of War games, and thus cannot comment, but Starcraft 2 is absolutely amazing.
 

Zaltias

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As others before have mentioned, DoW II takes an rpg/rts hybrid approach towards its campaign. You control 4 squads per mission (out of 6 originally, but the Chaos Rising adds a 7th in. Retribution only gives you 4 hero units, but allows you to construct additional troops on the map, or swap your heroes for honour guard units). Your squads can gain experience and on level up gain points you can spend in improving them (either in Health, Melee, Range or Energy in the first two games, or a simplified Health, Offence and Energy in Retribution). Completing missions gives you wargear (can also be dropped from enemies) which you can use to customise your squads (different weapon load outs, armour, abilities etc). There is some replay value in using different squads or levelling up different traits, but you'll find in the first game missions are rather repetitive (Chaos Rising and Retribution have varied missions, but less in comparison to the DoW II).

I don't really play competitive multiplayer all that much, but it does have this game mode called Last Stand, where you defend against 20 waves of enemies with 2 other people. Whilst it is repetitive (all the waves are the same each time) and there are only two different maps it is quite fun to play, I've thrown way too many hours into it.

I just recently beat Starcraft II and as mentioned above, the story is rather lacklustre, the presentation of it for the most part is quite good. I thought the missions were quite fun, each had something new to offer (like the introduction of a new unit that might be helpful for a bit before I inevitably fell into my old habit of mass producing Goliaths, Banshees, Siege Tanks and Vikings to augment the mercenary forces to sweep the map). Looking around the Hyperion between missions was interesting. There is a degree of rpg-esque upgrading in SCII, mainly in what you spend your credits on; each unit and some buildings have two upgrades you can purchase, buying the contracts of aforementioned mercenaries and research upgrades from the lab.

I've played a few multiplayer games of SCII and it seems to be more of the same from StarCraft I (with the usual emphasis on build orders and hard counters and good micro/macro) and some of the custom game maps add variability to the mix.

I would say DoW II has more replayability for the campaign compared to SCII (based on the rpg style of the campaign, so many ways to play), not to mention that Retribution adds a 'campaign' for each of the 6 races (basically you run through the same maps from each race's perspective).
SC II takes the tradition rpg basebuilding approach while DoW II focuses more on real time tactics with a small cadre of units. In the end it depends more on which style you enjoy more, both are fairly solid games.
 

Fiend13

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WaaghPowa said:
I don't really think that's true. Advantages in terrain are basically a given as far as most RTS games are concerned, having a high point with ranged units firing on units below, of course there's going to be an edge. What I mean is that DOW2 takes into account debris and other parts of terrain as a form of cover for reducing incoming damage. Not simply buildings or cliffs etc, but things like craters caused by explosives during battle and destroyed tanks can be used as cover. In Starcraft II, aside from High ground, low ground and Line of sight I don't see much else. DOW2 makes it feel like your units are actual soldiers fighting on a real battlefield, when Starcraft is clearly just a game. If you were to make an RTS game based on commanding US Marines, would the Starcraft design work? Not so much.
You are correct that the cover mechanic is pretty much unique to DoW2. Whether this enriches the gameplay or is more realistic than other mechanics is debatable. I have to admit that i am not entirely familiar with the gameplay of DoW2 on high level but you make it sound like a vast if not the biggest part of a tactic evolves around securing the spots with cover. Here i wonder if that doesn't play out a bit to onesided. In every rts you have the possibility to get your forces into a position that is pretty much untouchable. However, good games still give you the opportunity to win the game against such a situation. Is that the case with DoW2 too?
Best example that also deals with the problem of realism out of Starcraft 2: A terran has created a conatin outside of his opponents base using tanks, turrets and bunkers. Everything that moves only one inch too far in dies. The contained player however can now use dropships and offensive air units to circumvent the contain and attack where the terran's army is not. And that is exactly what i would do when encountering a heavy defended enemy base: call in an airstrike.
To put it in a nutshell:
While there are no doubt more terrain mechanics in DoW2 other but rts games and SC2 in particualar create synergy effects between unit types and strategies that allow you to circumvent terrain advantages.
 

OutforEC

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Jul 20, 2010
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I gather the consensus comes down to whether I want to micro or macro more. In that regard I'll likely try DoW first since it seems to mesh more with what I'm looking for. I've never been good at the macro since I tend to forget about anything that's not right in front of my face, and my outlying troops tend to suffer for it.

Thanks all, as always you rock!
 

Jonathan Wingo

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Mar 30, 2010
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Starcraft II only goes so far, isn't all that long, and gets boring pretty quick. I'd say Dawn of War 2. Plus you can get the entire Dawn of War 2 pack for 60 bucks on steam. Starcraft II costs about as much, I believe, and is one game that's mostly focused on the PVP aspect.
 

Waaghpowa

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Apr 13, 2010
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Fiend13 said:
I realize you haven't actually played DOW so I will explain the best I can. Simply getting the best position wont always be the best advantage. Cover and efficient use of terrain is important, yes, but it doesn't mean that one can tip the whole match in their favour. Creative use of your resources, I.e. your wargear, can help in numerous ways to diffuse instances in which your enemy is heavily entrenched in a defensive position. Many units carry frag grenades that quickly reduce most light/medium cover to rubble, effectively destroying a position. Not only that, but causes units to lose moral, get thrown all over the place, stun etc. Larger buildings can be easily destroyed with satchel charges which most scout units carry. Being in cover also doesn't mean you're invincible, you can still get shot. Similar to Starcraft, there's more to it when you actually get to play it.

Gist of it is: Just because you have the best cover, doesn't mean someone can't fuck your shit up.
 

Fiend13

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WaaghPowa said:
[
Gist of it is: Just because you have the best cover, doesn't mean someone can't fuck your shit up.
Well thank you Sir now I am considering getting that game too.
 

The Apothecarry

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I'm a very casual RTS player. I play very defensively and I take my time building troops. I've played both Dawn of War II (and all expansions) and Starcraft II, and between the two I prefer DoW.

Starcraft's fast pace is a down side to me. True, it's annoying when a unit takes a minute to build, but I lose much of my element of strategy because all of my planning time is lost to some form of rush five minutes in. Dawn of War provides me with an RPG element similar to Warcraft III that I really enjoy.

You seem like much more of hardcore RTS player than me, so you would probably prefer Starcraft over Dawn of War.
 

silentx3ro

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May 9, 2011
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I own and play both DoW 2 and all its expansions and Starcraft 2. I love both of them, they are great games.

Honestly if your looking for a RTS with a good single player (ignoring multiplayer altogether)
SC2 is the one. Its got a great campaign mode but it wins by default because DoW2 Single Player isn't really an RTS.

DoW2's campaign is a great little top down RPG that has some RTS influences but not much more than that.
The third Expansion has a few more RTS elements but its still pretty RPG heavy.
You dont build bases, you don't ever really get to build an army (you do in Retribution but not ind Vanilla and Chaos Rising)
You pick 4 units to deploy with on missions from 7 or 8 preset hero units.
You level them up and equip them to make you missions a little easier

Starcraft 2 is a "true" RTS even in the campaign mode, you build your base, collect resources build the army setup you want and crush the guys whos armor is a different colour and complete your objectives.

I prefer the story in DoW2 but thats likely because I really enjoyed the original and love the Warhammer 40k mythos but thats personal preference.

Both games have a good story and solid gameplay but only one of the choices you listed is an RTS and thats SC2 but to be honest I doubt you would regret buying either, however if you decided to dabble in the multiplayer, all the user created and custom maps and game modes give SC2 a much longer life span.
 

OutforEC

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Jul 20, 2010
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The Apothecarry said:
You seem like much more of hardcore RTS player than me, so you would probably prefer Starcraft over Dawn of War.
You seriously overestimate me if you think I'm a hardcore RTS player, and I think DoW would appeal to me for exactly the same reasons it appeals to you.
 

Sonicron

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Mar 11, 2009
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TestSubject4 said:
Neither get Dawn of War: Soulstorm. Older and better than both.
To the OP: Do NOT listen to that guy. Soulstorm was horribly balanced, added shitty gameplay mechanics and was bugged up the arse. If you want to play the good version of that game, try Dark Crusade instead, which was the peak of that series.

OT: It ultimately comes down to preference.

Starcraft II is, at its core, Starcraft I with beautiful new graphics and cutscenes that will make your jaw drop. Playing through the story is an awesome experience, in part because the missions are so incredibly varied for an RTS.

Dawn of War II... is not an RTS. It's an RTT (Real Time Tactics). You have no base-building, no massive army to simply stomp your enemy into oblivion, and you have several heroes to be levelled up and outfitted with progressively better in-game loot drops. You have few troops, but the ones you do have are very strong and tough; using tactics and environmental advantages is the key to survival.
Speaking as a massive W40k nerd, I'd say the game got the feeling of the Space Marine right: The last bulwark of defense for humanity, horrendously outnumbered and insanely powerful. Mow down a whole Tyranid swarm with 10 marines, you'll see what I mean. Also, the game probably offers a better experience for players who are already familiar with the background lore.

In any case, if you're looking for story and replay value... I'd say Starcraft II has the better story and more varied missions, whereas Dawn of War II definitely offers more playtime for your money, but the missions do get repetitive around the end. The story of DoW2 is OK by W40k standards, and gets even more interesting with the two expansion packs (which offer new gameplay options as well), but seeing how Retribution ties up a plot arc that was begun in the very first Dawn of War (2004, I think), you need to play several games to even understand all the interconnected references.

So, if you're looking for a quick, fantastic ride through more classic RTS territory, go with SCII, if you're into tactics, micromanaging, RPG elements and a decidedly darker tone, go with DoW2.