Deepest Story in a Game *No Spoilers*

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Th37thTrump3t

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Saelune said:
Who cares when you play a game. Its hard to play every game ever.

Anyways, I love the story of the FEAR series. Its a big part of why I love it. Its all overly complicated and stuff, but I tihnk its interesting.
Eh, they were worth playing up until F.E.A.R 2. Extraction point being the best out of all of them. (Silent hill nurse FTW! [Cookie if you know what I'm talking about])

OT: I must say, Mass Effect has to be one of the best game stories I've ever seen, especially Mass Effect 2.
 

Waffle_Man

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OhJohnNo said:
Hmmm... alright. A Song of Ice and Fire, (a book series, currently being adapted to TV as Game of Thrones) frequently subverts common narrative expectations (such as "the protagonist will live through to the end, unless possibly he dies heroically in the final few chapters"), which could fit the "challenge to given or expected preferences" definition. The fantasy world it's set in is grounded in history, making lots of parallels to certain historical events (like the Norman invasion of Saxon Britain in the background). The major characters are mostly quite complex. Would you say it's a "deep" series, story-wise?
It sounds like it at a glance, but why does it kill off the character? Was the character killed off to progress the story? Was it keeping with some theme of death and hopelessness or something similar? Or did the author just kill the character off for the random shit of it? I'm honestly asking.

Also, are the parallels actually contrasted against something or are they required for the central conflict to progress? Would the story be any different if it took place during the American civil war or the French revolution? That's not to say a fleshed out setting for the sake of a fleshed out setting isn't good, but it doesn't necessarily add "depth."

Aside from that, complex isn't a synonym for "deep." Do the characters have complex in that they have a lot of flaws that might as will be the flu? Or is it something that provides meaningful conflict or contrast?

Lastly, do the books have any over arching themes? What does it contrast these themes with?

Simply challenging audience expectations isn't enough. There has to be a fundamental question raised by the challenges, or it's just a bunch of stuff happening.

Those are the questions that need answering.
 

Mackie Stingray

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I'd have been willing to say more about Xenogears, but the topic says we shouldn't give spoilers.

(WARNING! Snape kills Trinity with Rosebud!)
Xenogears isn't a story of a young man whose hometown burnt down saving the world. It's not even a story about how he failed to save the world. It's a story of a great weapon which was powered by forces best described as 'divine,' which bound something very like a god to a corporeal reality from which it needed to free itself.
The weapon felt differently from its power source. The weapon was, after all, a weapon, and one with organic components.
The divine being made a mental contact with a young boy who, as is reasonable under the circumstances, wanted his mother. So it attempted to fill that void, and in time also filled the void left by the boy. These core human emotions, need and love, are central to the lead characters because they are artificial people. However, they're also deeply flawed people because their raw materials were of the weapon's organic parts.
A flawed creator using flawed materials to free itself from a world too small to support it. If you read A Scanner Darkly, this will be familiar from the female agent's self-justifications. Indeed, beyond its strong Gnostic vibe, this game's story plays out very much like a Philip K. Dick book.
What I have not touched on is the extent of human hubris after the story begins. This is backstory, crucial to understanding the rest of the plot. Indeed, this world's growth has been horribly stunted, and it's sometimes the smallest, most terrible details which make this clear. For example, there's a scene where an 'ancient' document is revealed. It's only 400 years old. This is a world which has been denied growth because a large organization has conspired to deprive each nation of its history, making them easier to manipulate. For people who aren't allowed to keep records themselves, 400 years old is ancient.
And don't even get me started on the symbolism, or on the end of the story. Nor its philosophical significance, or how it can be taken as a rebuttal to strong central tenets of the religions from which it draws.

It's a hell of a game. I just wish the presentation were better.
 

AyreonMaiden

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"Deep," as in a complex plot full of twists and mysteries? Metal Gear Solid, Killer7, Xenosaga, FFX, FFVII...

"Deep," as in simple in plot but full of subtext, implications, fridge horror and underlying themes? Cave Story, Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, Shadow of the Colossus, No More Heroes.
 

00slash00

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Heartcafe said:
Hmmm, have you played it's predecessor "Drakengard"? (Nier is apparently the sequel for it, believe it or not.)
Though it's not the "DEEPEST" story I've ever had, I liked it a lot simply because it was a bit twisted and different from usual fantasy plots. (Plus, there's dragons and everybody loves dragons.)
yeah i had heard that too. sadly i was halfway through my first playthrough of nier when i learned it was the sequel to drakengard so by then it seemed silly to start a different game. drakengard is next on my list
 

KoudelkaMorgan

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Rogue Galaxy
Shadow Hearts: Covenant
Forbidden Siren
Black Sigil : Blade of the Exiled
Xenogears
Chrono Trigger
Skies of Arcadia
 

Raziel_Likes_Souls

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BreakfastMan said:
killer7 is one of the big ones for me. It all seems crazy at first. Nothing makes sense, and it just seems to be weird for the sake of weird. But then, things start to hinted at, explained, and expanded upon, and the whole thing begins to make a strange, terrible sort of sense. Like House of Leaves, if anyone has read that (also a fantastic book, go read it). Very similar experience in a way. Fantastic game. There are other games with this sort of deep story (KOTOR 1+2, Persona 3+4, Deadly Premonition, ME2, Silent Hill 1-4, Bully, LoZ: MM, to name a few), but I only really wanted to touch on one, so... there it is.
Good choices. But did you know Suda 51 had 2 drafts of the Killer 7 script? One that was more in-depth, and had more exposition, and a version with 90% of the content taken out and put into the game?

As for me, this guy stole all the games I was gonna say.

Except Valkyria Chronicles. Never have I seen a Japanese-made work depict war so humanly. Asides that one movie where that kid survived one of the bombs, and starved to death on a subway platform. I can't remember the name, but that one hit pretty hard, too.
 

Heartcafe

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00slash00 said:
Heartcafe said:
Hmmm, have you played it's predecessor "Drakengard"? (Nier is apparently the sequel for it, believe it or not.)
Though it's not the "DEEPEST" story I've ever had, I liked it a lot simply because it was a bit twisted and different from usual fantasy plots. (Plus, there's dragons and everybody loves dragons.)
yeah i had heard that too. sadly i was halfway through my first playthrough of nier when i learned it was the sequel to drakengard so by then it seemed silly to start a different game. drakengard is next on my list
Don't worry about spoilers from Nier XD The games are so loosely connected that I didn't realize it till I looked up online. But it's a great game! Hope you enjoy it ^^
 

Samcanuck

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Hmm...I'll give my props to Metal gear solid. Especially if you add in the fox-die medi-logs you can watch.
 

00slash00

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Heartcafe said:
Don't worry about spoilers from Nier XD The games are so loosely connected that I didn't realize it till I looked up online. But it's a great game! Hope you enjoy it ^^
yeah i picked it up for like $6 a few days ago. i dont know much about it but a saw a clip of a swarm of giant babies eating someone and decided its twisted enough to justify the purchase
 

70R4N

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It's been said, but Planescape Torment. Why haven't you played it yet!!! GO BUY IT!!!
If you're installing it, check this out:
http://thunderpeel2001.blogspot.com/2009/01/planescape-torment-fully-modded.html

Also, Mask of the Betrayer's story was really good.
 

ExileNZ

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Denvarte said:
Cave Story, if only be cause it starts so easy-going and simple
God yes, Cave Story really does start off light and then get all complicated and emotional later. Even more surprising (and impressive) considering the retro graphics - you look like a pokemon trainer reject.

I loved that game.

Guess I should put in my own two cents, and I'll stick with a free 2D indie platformer:

Iji.

Starts off simple enough, but by level 2 it feels like System Shock 2. Awesome game.
 

70R4N

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Kathinka said:
Cogwheel said:
Kathinka said:
What he said. Planescape might be a tad hard to get into, but it IS a fantastic game. Must-play, really.
he's a she, thankyouverymuch^^

now you people did it btw, i'm reinstalling PT and trying to get it to run on my win7 64bit. let's see how this goes...
If you're reinstalling, check this out.

http://thunderpeel2001.blogspot.com/2009/01/planescape-torment-fully-modded.html
 

repeating integers

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Waffle_Man said:
It sounds like it at a glance, but why does it kill off the character? Was the character killed off to progress the story? Was it keeping with some theme of death and hopelessness or something similar? Or did the author just kill the character off for the random shit of it? I'm honestly asking.

Also, are the parallels actually contrasted against something or are they required for the central conflict to progress? Would the story be any different if it took place during the American civil war or the French revolution? That's not to say a fleshed out setting for the sake of a fleshed out setting isn't good, but it doesn't necessarily add "depth."

Aside from that, complex isn't a synonym for "deep." Do the characters have complex in that they have a lot of flaws that might as will be the flu? Or is it something that provides meaningful conflict or contrast?

Lastly, do the books have any over arching themes? What does it contrast these themes with?

Simply challenging audience expectations isn't enough. There has to be a fundamental question raised by the challenges, or it's just a bunch of stuff happening.

Those are the questions that need answering.
Well, OK, we're getting into serious spoileriffic shit here, so here come the spoiler tags.

The main character is a very honourable, honest man, and he is killed off a) to progress the plot (as his execution causes several pretty big developments), b) because one of the book's themes is that men who put their honour before reason will never triumph against devious, conniving enemies, and c) yes, for shock value - it's foreshadowed somewhat, when the theme appears in smaller ways before that in the book, but still damn unexpected.

I can't see how the story could work if it was set anywhere else. The history of the land and the relations between the central houses and characters and intrinsically linked, and from where I am in the series (second novel), it looks like it's setting up the land's history to repeat itself. Sadly, I fear I'm not far enough into it to properly answer that question, but it's looking promising.

When I was talking about the TV series on an IRC channel, one of the guys I was speaking to noted how there are very few characters it's possible to completely like or completely dislike. One of the villains is a queen who is cold, hard, conniving, and very easy to hate - yet when she hears her children might be killed if the war keeps on going against her, she honest-to-god starts to cry. The main character of the first book was likable, because he was exactly the hero fantasy usually gets - but he had a fatal flaw of rating his honour too highly. I'd wax on more about these, but I'll soon have to leave, so I'm winding up this post pretty sharpish now.
 

kingcom

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trollpwner said:
Cogwheel said:
Haven't played most of those, and I honestly found Deus Ex's story incredibly silly, almost in a "so bad it's good" kind of way.

That said, I'm with you on Spirit Engine 2, as well as Devil Survivor. Both fantastic stories.
kingcom said:
Baldur's Gate as a series and Planescape Torment come to mind. Deus Ex aswell, not sure how you found it incredibly silly to be honest but whatever.
Kahunaburger said:
Oh yeah, Deus Ex is incredibly silly, no arguments there. I mean, you've got like every conspiracy theory ever being true at the same time. But I just like how it pulls you into its paranoid-schizophrenic conspiracy-filled world (or at least, it did for me) and gets you to enjoy the story even while you're laughing at how absurd and over-the-top it is. Like a good episode of X-Files or something.

Haha and those last two are so underrated as RPGs! People don't know what they're missing :)
I hate to be that guy, but I don't see how Deus Ex's story was silly. Please explain....
I dont think its silly, I was confused as to how they found it silly.
 

BSCCollateral

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This probably isn't the best definition, but I'd call something "deep" if you can imagine two adults discussing moments in the story and disagreeing about what they mean.

Take "Mass Effect 2" and the "What do we do with these renegade Geth?" branching point. I have my opinions on what the right thing to do is, but I could imagine someone else disagreeing with me.
 

Saelune

Trump put kids in cages!
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halo3rulzer said:
Saelune said:
Who cares when you play a game. Its hard to play every game ever.

Anyways, I love the story of the FEAR series. Its a big part of why I love it. Its all overly complicated and stuff, but I tihnk its interesting.
Eh, they were worth playing up until F.E.A.R 2. Extraction point being the best out of all of them. (Silent hill nurse FTW! [Cookie if you know what I'm talking about])

OT: I must say, Mass Effect has to be one of the best game stories I've ever seen, especially Mass Effect 2.
Yuck. Extraction Point and Perseus Mandate are excluded from my mind since they are just the publisher being jerks trying to milk the then stolen FEAR series for money. (Vivendi made those two, not Monolith, and are non canon as far as FEAR 2 and 3 are concerned)
FEAR 3 is great though. I miss the tone of 1, but 3 is a pretty cool end to the trilogy.