Define a well written straight character first. I honestly have no idea what that means either. All I know is what the much smarter people tell me... and also that I'm a hack at artistic evaluation.
Define "A Well Writen Gay Character" in Gaming.
- Thread starter RJ 17
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I'll generally settle for someone who doesn't have "HELLO I AM A GAY" tattooed on their forehead, but, yeah, I agree with the "Well written character who is gay" sentiment. Homosexuality should just be another aspect of a whole character, like gender, hair colour and super skee-ball skills.
like any other character. just make a well writen character and make him/her gay. the fact that he/she is gay should only be a small part of the character in the same way that the have blond hair or what their favorit number is. sadly gay people in the media (on screen that is) seam to HAVE to be in a relationship in order to be gay and is created just to be gay. a really gay person isn't created just to be gay. they are created to live life, work hard, be a productive member of sociaty. i knew a gay guy for 3 years before i figured out he was gay.
and at that point i had come to know him so good that i really didn't care. if a character is well writen, putting in the part about him/her being gay don't change it to a bad character. cause gay people really aren't diffrent from straight people. reamember that gay guy i talked about, i am straight but him and i pretty much chear the same brain. we hate our job, love the same food, think twilight sucks and simpsons is awesome and we are almost the same person. sexuality doesn't deside how you are suppose to be.
note: steriotype characters isn't a good way to explain that a character is gay. it's just lazy writing and a bit racist
and at that point i had come to know him so good that i really didn't care. if a character is well writen, putting in the part about him/her being gay don't change it to a bad character. cause gay people really aren't diffrent from straight people. reamember that gay guy i talked about, i am straight but him and i pretty much chear the same brain. we hate our job, love the same food, think twilight sucks and simpsons is awesome and we are almost the same person. sexuality doesn't deside how you are suppose to be.
note: steriotype characters isn't a good way to explain that a character is gay. it's just lazy writing and a bit racist
Personally, I feel that a character's sexuality need not be given. Maybe if a conversation with a character gets into it, then yeah, they can say "Oh, I'm gay as shit." or whatever that character happens to be.
But, honestly. Does it even matter 90% of the time? Who cares? The majority of the time, (OK, fine, I haven't played every game ever, so that might be wrong) game characters have no explicitly represented sexuality, so they can be whatever you want.
Take Darksiders II. (I'm using this simply because it's the most recent thing I've played.) Death doesn't really seem to care for either sex, so I'd like to imagine him in particular as asexual. Not that his feelings on the matter are ever even remotely touched upon at any point in the game.
But, honestly. Does it even matter 90% of the time? Who cares? The majority of the time, (OK, fine, I haven't played every game ever, so that might be wrong) game characters have no explicitly represented sexuality, so they can be whatever you want.
Take Darksiders II. (I'm using this simply because it's the most recent thing I've played.) Death doesn't really seem to care for either sex, so I'd like to imagine him in particular as asexual. Not that his feelings on the matter are ever even remotely touched upon at any point in the game.
Common Sense? On my internets?!TKretts3 said:
Get out!
OT - What about Specialist Traynor? I didn't even realise she was a lesbian until my renegade male shep hit on her. It was awkward.
Hmm this is a very interesting challenge being presented. While I don't like the idea of sexuality taking a front seat in a game's plot, there's no reason character's can't *be* gay. But how to make it meaningful without crossing the line to the point where the game is simply about a character's homosexuality, instead of the character?
I would propose the following rules to make such a character well:
- A character can be established as homosexual through dialogue, cut scene or gameplay.
- The character's courage, role and skills are the same as any other character, where they aren't player defined.
- The character may be motivated by a lover, partner or possibility of one, but it should not be their primary motivation.
- There shouldn't be any prejudice. Although it is a genuine, real-world issue it will only be counter-productive to have it in a game, even if it's dealt with positively and maturely.
- Reference/reinforcement could be made by having asides where the character gets "chat up" by others, asked about their ex/love-interest, etc.
- There should not be any such characters in a game below PEGI 12 if the references are very light and infrequent, PEGI 16 otherwise. Sexuality of *any* sort doesn't belong in games for children.
Truth be told, if a game is developed to cater specifically to gay gamers, that means a developer may well be ruling it the vast majority of their target audience. I don't think it would be financially feasible. I think apart from MaleShep's and Kaiden's sudden bout of homosexuality they obviously "caught" somewhere between ME2 and ME3 *rolls eyes*, ME3 handled homosexuality very well. Capable NPCs whose sexuality didn't define them, were available as LIs; Cortez in particular was quite obviously driven by guilt and loss of his partner, tragically so. It would be no different for a straight guy and made his motivations relateable and story arc interesting.
Conversely, Skyrim handled it quite terribly. The anyone-can-marry-anyone thing that completely erased what little shreds of personality the spouse may have had before getting Dovah-Loving meant it might as well be meaningless. The game is loveless, romanceless and true relationship-less. Being gay in Skyrim meant "marrying" a mannequin with a handful of spoken lines.
I would propose the following rules to make such a character well:
- A character can be established as homosexual through dialogue, cut scene or gameplay.
- The character's courage, role and skills are the same as any other character, where they aren't player defined.
- The character may be motivated by a lover, partner or possibility of one, but it should not be their primary motivation.
- There shouldn't be any prejudice. Although it is a genuine, real-world issue it will only be counter-productive to have it in a game, even if it's dealt with positively and maturely.
- Reference/reinforcement could be made by having asides where the character gets "chat up" by others, asked about their ex/love-interest, etc.
- There should not be any such characters in a game below PEGI 12 if the references are very light and infrequent, PEGI 16 otherwise. Sexuality of *any* sort doesn't belong in games for children.
Truth be told, if a game is developed to cater specifically to gay gamers, that means a developer may well be ruling it the vast majority of their target audience. I don't think it would be financially feasible. I think apart from MaleShep's and Kaiden's sudden bout of homosexuality they obviously "caught" somewhere between ME2 and ME3 *rolls eyes*, ME3 handled homosexuality very well. Capable NPCs whose sexuality didn't define them, were available as LIs; Cortez in particular was quite obviously driven by guilt and loss of his partner, tragically so. It would be no different for a straight guy and made his motivations relateable and story arc interesting.
Conversely, Skyrim handled it quite terribly. The anyone-can-marry-anyone thing that completely erased what little shreds of personality the spouse may have had before getting Dovah-Loving meant it might as well be meaningless. The game is loveless, romanceless and true relationship-less. Being gay in Skyrim meant "marrying" a mannequin with a handful of spoken lines.
As big a dickhead as he is, I think Volgin from MGS3 is the best written gay character I can think of (or atleast, bi).
Its interesting that most people here are happy with the consensus of as long as its just a sidenote in his character then he's a well written gay character (feel free to read female refterences instead of male if you like references to lesbians more).
The thing is there are alot of straight guys out there who are all about sex, hitting on women, taking up their sex life, devoting considerable time and effort to the sole outcome of getting laid... and some of these guys are video game characters... so if you were to re-write these straight guys as gay instead would they, by pure virtue of them being gay, immediately become badly written, or obviously homophobic representations of gayness jusst because they want to get laid as much as the straight guy?
For the record I also agree Cortez is an awesome character who is awesome and just so happens to be gay, but unless a situation actually calls for sexual type decisions, I either don't even think about a guys preference, or assume he's straight until indicated otherwise.... this last part doesn't apply to women though, everyone knows they're all bi
The thing is there are alot of straight guys out there who are all about sex, hitting on women, taking up their sex life, devoting considerable time and effort to the sole outcome of getting laid... and some of these guys are video game characters... so if you were to re-write these straight guys as gay instead would they, by pure virtue of them being gay, immediately become badly written, or obviously homophobic representations of gayness jusst because they want to get laid as much as the straight guy?
For the record I also agree Cortez is an awesome character who is awesome and just so happens to be gay, but unless a situation actually calls for sexual type decisions, I either don't even think about a guys preference, or assume he's straight until indicated otherwise.... this last part doesn't apply to women though, everyone knows they're all bi
One thing many are forgetting, particularly the OP and others who pose the question is that in the majority of games, excepting those where there are romances available, the protagonist is almost always simply an "everyman". They're the blank slate upon which the player can project whatever characteristics and traits they wish. For this huge majority, sexuality is entirely irrelevant.
And here are some questions I would love answered by any fellow escapists who themselves are gay. Your opinion please on the following.
Taking Deus Ex: Human Revolution and Alpha Protocol as examples. In DE:HR Adam Jensenn is in part motivated by his ex, Megan. In AP, Thorton has the opportunity to woo several ladies. If Adam's ex had been a man, or Thorton could've "espionaged" another man, with the rest of both games remaining entirely unchanged (excepting for the obvious) would you have enjoyed the games more or less? Would you have related to the character any more or less?
Did you find the ability to marry anyone in Skyrim satisfactory? Did you take the opportunity to marry a same sex partner?
Are there any games which have genuinely offended you by a shoddy, inappropriate or ham-handed attempt at portraying a gay character or homosexuality?
Does playing a heterosexual character bother you, in games where it's very minor, such as Sands of Time or AssCreedBro?
Would you want to play a game in which the story is wholly focussed on the protagonist's homosexuality or relationships?
And here are some questions I would love answered by any fellow escapists who themselves are gay. Your opinion please on the following.
Taking Deus Ex: Human Revolution and Alpha Protocol as examples. In DE:HR Adam Jensenn is in part motivated by his ex, Megan. In AP, Thorton has the opportunity to woo several ladies. If Adam's ex had been a man, or Thorton could've "espionaged" another man, with the rest of both games remaining entirely unchanged (excepting for the obvious) would you have enjoyed the games more or less? Would you have related to the character any more or less?
Did you find the ability to marry anyone in Skyrim satisfactory? Did you take the opportunity to marry a same sex partner?
Are there any games which have genuinely offended you by a shoddy, inappropriate or ham-handed attempt at portraying a gay character or homosexuality?
Does playing a heterosexual character bother you, in games where it's very minor, such as Sands of Time or AssCreedBro?
Would you want to play a game in which the story is wholly focussed on the protagonist's homosexuality or relationships?
My girlfriend made a great point when she made a guide on how to Roleplay Death Knights in WoW;RJ 17 said:
Make a CHARACTER first, make a Death Knight second.
I think the same applies to all kinds of characters - females, "ethnics", gays, whatever "minority" you want to represent, you need to make them a character BEFORE you make them a minority.
Well let's look at gay people.
Hmm, the gay people I know don't seem to be defined by their sexuality. They dress like normal folks, talk like normals folks, have jobs that they go to like normal folks, and generally are entirely normal. It's just that when they go home at the end of the day they go home to someone of the same gender instead of the opposite gender. When at home they talk about exactly the same topics as normal folk, have sex with their partner the same as normal folks, and have to buy toilet paper like normal folks.
It's almost like gay people are just normal people who happen to have sex with someone of the same gender.
Maybe that's how we should write them? Just a thought. When a character is straight no one makes a big deal of it. When Indiana Jones goes off into the sunset with Marian no one even comments on it, it's just how the story ends, with the main character going off with the girl. Their relationship is a subplot to the main story, but they show clear attraction and why they work as a couple, and then at the end they are together. So write a gay relationship exactly the same way.
Now obviously you can add in some extra angst to the backstory, but it doesn't have to define everything the character is. Treat it the same way you treat any backstory, it defines who they are now without being their entire raison d'etre.
I think that's the main problem with the gay characters I've seen in the media. They strut flamboyantly into every room, talk with a high pitched lisp and seem to somehow include the words 'man love' 'gay' 'fabulous' or 'darling' into every sentence. They are the worst of one-dimensional characters in that their character is nothing but their sexuality. If a writer tried to include a straight man walking around barging into every room, talking in a gruff smoker's voice and included the words 'football' 'steaks' 'beer' and 'boobs' into every sentence then they'd be laughed off the show/film/game.
EDIT: Just realised I haven't phrased the opening paragraph as well as I could have. I was not trying to say that gay people are normal apart from the fact that they're gay, I was trying to convey the point that gay people are normal people, and who they have sex with has almost no bearing on their character at all. You wouldn't say 'this guy's amazing, but then he is black' or 'this guy's amazing, but then he is Jewish' so why do gay people have to be so defined? Homosexuality is not something that should be tacked onto the end of every description of them, it should only be included deep in the character notes.
Hmm, the gay people I know don't seem to be defined by their sexuality. They dress like normal folks, talk like normals folks, have jobs that they go to like normal folks, and generally are entirely normal. It's just that when they go home at the end of the day they go home to someone of the same gender instead of the opposite gender. When at home they talk about exactly the same topics as normal folk, have sex with their partner the same as normal folks, and have to buy toilet paper like normal folks.
It's almost like gay people are just normal people who happen to have sex with someone of the same gender.
Maybe that's how we should write them? Just a thought. When a character is straight no one makes a big deal of it. When Indiana Jones goes off into the sunset with Marian no one even comments on it, it's just how the story ends, with the main character going off with the girl. Their relationship is a subplot to the main story, but they show clear attraction and why they work as a couple, and then at the end they are together. So write a gay relationship exactly the same way.
Now obviously you can add in some extra angst to the backstory, but it doesn't have to define everything the character is. Treat it the same way you treat any backstory, it defines who they are now without being their entire raison d'etre.
I think that's the main problem with the gay characters I've seen in the media. They strut flamboyantly into every room, talk with a high pitched lisp and seem to somehow include the words 'man love' 'gay' 'fabulous' or 'darling' into every sentence. They are the worst of one-dimensional characters in that their character is nothing but their sexuality. If a writer tried to include a straight man walking around barging into every room, talking in a gruff smoker's voice and included the words 'football' 'steaks' 'beer' and 'boobs' into every sentence then they'd be laughed off the show/film/game.
EDIT: Just realised I haven't phrased the opening paragraph as well as I could have. I was not trying to say that gay people are normal apart from the fact that they're gay, I was trying to convey the point that gay people are normal people, and who they have sex with has almost no bearing on their character at all. You wouldn't say 'this guy's amazing, but then he is black' or 'this guy's amazing, but then he is Jewish' so why do gay people have to be so defined? Homosexuality is not something that should be tacked onto the end of every description of them, it should only be included deep in the character notes.
It's a decently portrayed character who, in his or her romantic relationships just so prefers the same sex.RJ 17 said:
It's a bit of strange thing to ask.
Gaming has very few well written characters as it is, so gay or straight the chances are they are terrible.
Lesbians tend to be pandering, unfortunately, rather than any serious attempt at that aspect of a character.
A bit off topic; I appreciate Bioware's attempts at making a male character, Anders, who is attracted to you the player rather than have you pursue him with no input from himself. I know it squicked some straight male players out but really, that's what female gamers have had to put up with from flirty female NPC's for like, forever.
I disagree, not that I am saying he was bad. But I do think that Veronica from Fallout:NV was much better, and if you haven't played the game I just think it added a bit more to the character. In that in mass effect for the most part everyone if fine with it, but in Fallout:NV some people are not.FelixG said:
I am going to go under the assumption that you never played the game but, Veronica is part of a group called the Brotherhood of Steel. They are, for lack of a better term, a religion that you have to be born into. So as you can imagine there is some social pressure to have children, and because she is gay she can't. And this all relates back to here major crusade in the group that they need to change, and let people in, recruit, or what have you. You see because she is gay and is getting pressured form her fellow BOS members, to do something she doesn't want to do, she starts to think that maybe they're wrong and headed in the wrong direction.
That's not the only reason that she thinks the way she dose, but it is a reason. And I just think that it adds a little more to the character then oh he just had a husband. Because in that end it seamed rather inconsequential, to me, if he had a husband or a wife. And it wasn't for Veronica. Don't get me wrong I don't think how Cortez was written was bad. Part of it dose have to do with the setting post-apocalypse vs far future, but I just think it added a little bit more to the the character.
Also I sometimes have trouble with sentence structure, so if you can't read this at some point tell me. I likely left out a word or put in the wrong one or something. I'm sorry I just have problems with that sometimes.
To be honest, I actually thought that Traynor was much better in this regard, The insecurity she feels being so far out of her depth, serving on the Normandy during a Reaper invasion, shines through clearly. However, she's never annoying, because she puts a brave face on things, and actually becomes an invaluable asset to the team. She was just generally a very well written and well acted character, with only a few subtle hints as to her sexuality, and only when relevant.RJ 17 said:
Cortez, on the other hand, was... I don't want to say he was annoying because he was still a nice guy, but, yeah. He was a little bit annoying. Sometimes I think his sensitive side was taken a little too far. All that "I worry about you" stuff just made me think 'I'm Commander freaking Shepard! I don't need you to worry about me, I need you to stay focused so you don't get anyone killed.' To clarify, I'd have exactly the same problems about the way he was written if he had been straight, which makes it even more irksome that I have the feeling that the only reason they decided to make him so sensitive is because he was gay. Out of the two of them, Traynor seemed more like a regular person who was just easy to get on with, while conversations with Cortez were always so heavy that it got wearing.
So yeah, what do I think makes a good gay character? Someone who is just a good character period will do. For bonus points, their sexuality should be a well integrated part of who they are so it doesn't end up feeling tacked on and seeming like they're only gay because you wanted to fulfill a 'gay character quota' that you had set yourself, without their gayness being the only thing that defines them.
A character that is not defined be their sexuality and who succeeds in ignoring or repudiating the stereotypes about gays on mainstream culture.
A character that doesn't focus on him or her being gay. A character that, when having a banter about what kind of actress he things is the cutest, would say "Oh, I'm gay.". That's it. Being gay isn't a defining character trait. I hate shows on tv where you have one character that can be reduced to " look at this gay man ? Aren't we progressive by writing in a gay man? Just see how he's gay with his gayness and how we're perfectly comfortable with his gay gayness and stereotypical gay mannerisms. "
I like your point about "Good guys want to save the world and get the girl" while "Bad guys do it because they're evil people."b3nn3tt said:
To give a character good motivations you need to look at WHY a character does what they do. Most characters should be doing things because they think they are doing good.
This may not be the best example and it is certainly not the best game but Fable 3's Logan, the Tyrant King. After squeezing his lands for every penny they have and forcing everyone to work to exhaustion it just looks like he is the stereotypical evil King. Then you find out he is doing it to raise an army and defend Albion from mandatory apocalypse monster. So he's being cruel to be kind. Unfortunately, the game then says there is no way he can succeed because he isn't part of the special hero club.
It's not the best example but you get to learn why he does what he does. I think heroes are ... um... not harder to write well but easier to write badly. Since the hero is controlled by the player having a complex character may not always line up with what the players make them do. What examples are there of well written heroes? Apart from Snake I can't think of any right now. But Snake is more fleshed out in his codec calls, bits where the player has no control over what he says.