Democrats already retreating from public option before DNC even starts

[lil devils x]

So, you’re saying electoralism is worthless?

No, it works fine when you have enough votes in the regions necessary to win a majority. Otherwise, expect to bribe, beg, borrow and steal to get ANYTHING done by any means possible. (Where possessives are in the current political landscape). If you hadn't noticed, progressives don't have a majority on our own, so we are on " Plan B" now. That is why you should be listening to what Bernie is telling you to do so we can actually implement the plan B and not be useless. Not listening to Bernie only blocks the progressives we do have from being able to help at all. Progressives still have a plan to get things done as long as their supporters listen to what they are asking them to do so they can do so and not stand in their way.

 

[Revnak]

No, it works fine when you have enough votes in the regions necessary to win a majority. Otherwise, expect to bribe, beg, borrow and steal to get ANYTHING done by any means possible. (Where possessives are in the current political landscape). If you hadn't noticed, progressives don't have a majority on our own, so we are on " Plan B" now. That is why you should be listening to what Bernie is telling you to do so we can actually implement the plan B and not be useless. Not listening to Bernie only blocks the progressives we do have from being able to help at all. Progressives still have a plan to get things done as long as their supporters listen to what they are asking them to do so they can do so and not stand in their way.

Bernie is an idealistic old man who thinks of Joe Biden as his friend, his advice on this matter doesn’t mean shit to me. Also, please go back and read the edit because apparently the point of my joke never reached you. As for usefulness, please, shut your fucking mouth about whether I am useless while defending Joe fucking Biden, or by extension the American political apparatus. Reading a book of Garfield Comic strips is more useful than supporting this wretched system.

 

[lil devils x]

Bernie is an idealistic old man who thinks of Joe Biden as his friend, his advice on this matter doesn’t mean shit to me. Also, please go back and read the edit because apparently the point of my joke never reached you. As for usefulness, please, shut your fucking mouth about whether I am useless while defending Joe fucking Biden, or by extension the American political apparatus.

All I got from what you have been saying is that since you do not like our only options for saving as many people as we can right now with the tools we have available and that since you do not have enough people on your team for an all out rebellion, you might think that setting ourselves on fire while everyone else ignores us is a better alternative.
Bernie is not just an idealistic old man, he has accomplished much and we would not even be having this conversation right now if it weren't for his hard work to get us here and tbh I don't think he even believes Biden is his friend. He is just trying to do what it takes to get what he can done in the time he has. It really is that simple here. It makes a hell of a lot more sense for him to do that then set himself on fire here.

Your plan here is to have nothing ever change ever AND let all the people die that we could have saved in the meantime by listening to Bernie. We can do better than that.

That is all that is accomplished by not listening to what the progressives in congress who are trying to help us are actually telling us right now. Why would we want to block them from trying to do what they can while they are there instead of do what they say is needed to help them?

 

[Revnak]

All I got from what you have been saying is that since you do not like our only options for saving as many people as we can right now with the tools we have available and that since you do not have enough people on your team for an all out rebellion, you might think that setting ourselves on fire while everyone else ignores us is a better alternative.
Bernie is not just an idealistic old man and tbh I don't think he even believes Biden is his friend. He is just trying to do what it takes to get what he can done in the time he has. It really is that simple here. It makes a hell of a lot more sense for him to do that then set himself on fire here.

Your plan here is to have nothing ever change ever AND let all the people die that we could have saved in the meantime by listening to Bernie. We can do better than that.

That is all that is accomplished by not listening to what the progressives in congress who are trying to help us are actually telling us right now.

Or, and here’s something, do literally anything that isn’t fucking voting. Donate to a co-op, it’ll probably accomplish more. Join a local organization that helps out your community. Fuck, a progressive church with a solid food bank even. Talk to your neighbors, get to know them, figure out what they need and how you can help them. Operate in literally any other fucking domain than our worthless political apparatus that continually isolates you from other people and their wants and needs and has somehow convinced you some quarter of America is utterly unreachable. Then perhaps join in marches, do something with some measure of actual affect on the world greater than signing your name on a piece of paper that will be promptly ignored due to the fact that our political process is totally divorced from our actual goals and desires. Demand better. Read some theory, some history, some actual news from outside of the American talking heads and hot take factories. Then, if all that fails, fight. If somehow fighting and all of that fails, then go ahead and surrender to capital’s whims. Fine. But before that, admitting that this is the best shot we have has nothing to do with being realistic and is purely a mix of ideology and a total lack of imagination.

 

[lil devils x]

Or, and here’s something, do literally anything that isn’t fucking voting. Donate to a co-op, it’ll probably accomplish more. Join a local organization that helps out your community. Fuck, a progressive church with a solid food bank even. Talk to your neighbors, get to know them, figure out what they need and how you can help them. Operate in literally any other fucking domain than our worthless political apparatus that continually isolates you from other people and their wants and needs and has somehow convinced you some quarter of America is utterly unreachable. Then perhaps join in marches, do something with some measure of actual affect on the world greater than signing your name on a piece of paper that will be promptly ignored due to the fact that our political process is totally divorced from our actual goals and desires. Demand better. Read some theory, some history, some actual news from outside of the American talking heads and hot take factories. Then, if all that fails, fight. If somehow fighting and all of that fails, then go ahead and surrender to capital’s whims. Fine. But before that, admitting that this is the best shot we have has nothing to do with being realistic and is purely a mix of ideology and a total lack of imagination.

Many of us ALREADY do things besides voting, but not voting just means we are erased entirely. Not voting is what got us into this mess in the first place. The youth vote that Bernie was relying on DIDN'T TURN OUT TO VOTE. That is the opposite of what needs to happen here. You should be convincing everyone who can't be bothered with voting to get off their arse and do it instead of telling them to let themselves be erased. Not voting = setting yourself on fire and being ignored. It means you no longer matter at all.

Not voting already failed and caused the mess in the first place so you just want to make it worse and fade into nonexistence rather than doing what it actually takes to get things done.

Bribing, begging, borrowing and stealing to get what it takes done to save as many as you can in the meantime when you don't have a majority takes a hell of a lot more creativity than not voting and erasing yourself from the process.

 

[Revnak]

Many of us ALREADY do things besides voting, but not voting just means we are erased entirely. Not voting is what got us into this mess in the first place. The youth vote that Bernie was relying on DIDN'T TURN OUT TO VOTE. That is the opposite of what needs to happen here. You should be convincing everyone who can't be bothered with voting to get off their arse and do it instead of telling them to let themselves be erased. Not voting = setting yourself on fire and being ignored. It means you no longer matter at all.

Yes, there certainly wasn’t hour long lines and an obtuse primary system that exacerbated that issue, no, nothing screwy happened during this primary at all, and nothing ever will again, which is why we should maintain ample faith in the system.

Not voting already failed and caused the mess in the first place so you just want to make it worse and fade into nonexistence rather than doing what it actually takes to get things done.

Bribing, begging, borrowing and stealing to get what it takes done to save as many as you can in the meantime when you don't have a majority takes a hell of a lot more creativity than not voting and erasing yourself from the process.

Voting didn’t solve this problem either. Young people turned out to vote for Obama who promptly sold their futures away and did nothing to help them reach the other end of the financial crisis. It led to an administration full of imbeciles and bad actors whose failure built the Tea Party and created the entire scenario we are currently in. I don’t care if you vote compared to whether I care if you told your family to not share Qanon shit. One of these activities has dramatically more value but is talked about far less so we can be further alienated. I will not concede that liberal electoralism is of any comparative value. It is equal to when I check my pockets for the fifth time on the walk to my work from my car, utterly meaningless but it makes me feel better.

 

[lil devils x]

Yes, there certainly wasn’t hour long lines and an obtuse primary system that exacerbated that issue, no, nothing screwy happened during this primary at all, and nothing ever will again, which is why we should maintain ample faith in the system.

Voting didn’t solve this problem either. Young people turned out to vote for Obama who promptly sold their futures away and did nothing to help them reach the other end of the financial crisis. It led to an administration full of imbeciles and bad actors whose failure built the Tea Party and created the entire scenario we are currently in. I don’t care if you vote compared to whether I care if you told your family to not share Qanon shit. One of these activities has dramatically more value but is talked about far less so we can be further alienated. I will not concede that liberal electoralism is of any comparative value. It is equal to when I check my pockets for the fifth time on the walk to my work from my car, utterly meaningless but it makes me feel better.

The reality is that if progressives EVER want anything to change they have to be willing to sit in 10 hr long lines at the polls if necessary due to conservatives setting it up that way. Voter suppression has always been a problem and the best way to change it is to beat them at their own game. The only other option is let the GOP keep it that way forever. You are doing exactly what the GOP WANT you to do by just letting them get away with it. They are intentionally trying to keep people from voting, that is why it takes 5 min to vote in conservative areas and they make sure they make it a s difficult as possible to be able to vote in the liberal areas. They design it that way for a reason, and you are just doing EXACTLY what conservatives want you to do by giving up.

Texas closes hundreds of polling sites, making it harder for minorities to vote

Guardian analysis finds that places where black and Latino population is growing by the largest numbers experienced the majority of closures and could benefit Republicans

www.theguardian.com

I live in a heavily conservative region, it only takes me a few minutes to vote every time, no lines, there are several easily accessible polling locations nearby. At the same time however, in the progressive regions, you cannot even park near the polling locations because they shut the streets down in front of them for construction and the lines are hours long... See how that works? Sure keep letting the conservatives control the polls, you are helping them by not voting. Erasing yourself is exactly what they hoped you would do, you are doing their job for them!

 

[Seanchaidh]

The reality is that if progressives EVER want anything to change they have to be willing to sit in 10 hr long lines at the polls if necessary due to conservatives setting it up that way.

And liberals not caring enough to stop them.

 

[tippy2k2]

Many of us ALREADY do things besides voting, but not voting just means we are erased entirely. Not voting is what got us into this mess in the first place. The youth vote that Bernie was relying on DIDN'T TURN OUT TO VOTE. That is the opposite of what needs to happen here. You should be convincing everyone who can't be bothered with voting to get off their arse and do it instead of telling them to let themselves be erased. Not voting = setting yourself on fire and being ignored. It means you no longer matter at all.

Not voting already failed and caused the mess in the first place so you just want to make it worse and fade into nonexistence rather than doing what it actually takes to get things done.

Bribing, begging, borrowing and stealing to get what it takes done to save as many as you can in the meantime when you don't have a majority takes a hell of a lot more creativity than not voting and erasing yourself from the process.

Vote for Democrats, they'll fix the problems! I mean, they also put us in a bunch of these problems (either directly pushing through an insurance program that are Insurance Companies Wet Dream instead of doing something useful when you had Super Majority and could have actually changed shit in our shittastic medical system or indirectly by just rubber stamping what Republican want) and have shown very little signs the last twenty years that they plan on fixing any of the messes that they themselves caused but hey, I'm sure THIS time it'll work! Because...uh....well....orange man bad! Pelosi ripped up a copy of Trumps speech that one time so see, Democratic resistance!!! YAAAS QUEEN!!!!

Vaas : Did I ever tell you what the definition of insanity is? Insanity is doing the exact... same fucking thing... over and over again expecting... shit to change...

 

[Worgen]

To be fair, there has never been any journalism ever that isn't hugely biased. Even the fact checkers are baised

They can be, but you have to be extremely careful if you start going that far in your assumptions. Because if all news sources are equal then everything is allowed. For instance, one of the simpler methods of manipulation that Russia likes to use is to just muddy the waters. Just make it so things are complicated enough for people to doubt sources so that people will look for other sources and be more willing to accept alternative data. It doesn't matter if you think they are right, it matters if you think the other guys are wrong.

 

[lil devils x]

And liberals not caring enough to stop them.

We don;t have enough liberals to be able to stop them. That is the real problem here. Why do you think you have to bribe moderates and conservatives to get anything done at all?

 

[lil devils x]

Vote for Democrats, they'll fix the problems! I mean, they also put us in a bunch of these problems (either directly pushing through an insurance program that are Insurance Companies Wet Dream instead of doing something useful when you had Super Majority and could have actually changed shit in our shittastic medical system or indirectly by just rubber stamping what Republican want) and have shown very little signs the last twenty years that they plan on fixing any of the messes that they themselves caused but hey, I'm sure THIS time it'll work! Because...uh....well....orange man bad! Pelosi ripped up a copy of Trumps speech that one time so see, Democratic resistance!!! YAAAS QUEEN!!!!

Vaas : Did I ever tell you what the definition of insanity is? Insanity is doing the exact... same fucking thing... over and over again expecting... shit to change...

The progressives are who will fix the problems, it is the progressives who do not have enough people to do so. That is why they have to bribe the moderates and conservatives to get enough votes to do anything. I am not sure why that is so difficult to understand. if the progressives don't bribe the moderates and conservative, everything g just gets worse.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Vote for Democrats, they'll fix the problems!

Ok, show of hands, does anyone saying people should vote for Democrats expect they'll fix all/most problems? Cause I see a lot of people saying that they'd be preferable to the Republicans, and that's not the same thing.

 

[tippy2k2]

I'm just gonna quote you both because it has the same answer (removed the quotes in edit because it is throwing a fit when I try to edit)...

The difficult part to understand is that you seem to understand that Corporate Democrats and Republicans are the enemies of Progressives (or if that's too strong, at least have two different goals), yet you still vote for Corporate Democrats.

You can justify it all you want by telling yourself that this will do the least amount of damage but we've seen this year (and 2016 too) that Corporate Democrats work harder to stop Progressives than Republicans ever have. Democrats would rather lose with Biden then risk having a Progressive take office because what does it matter to them? Hell, if anything, that's the Corporate Democrats ultimate dream. Then they don't have to work to make meaningful changes and risk upsetting their Corporate Donors; all they have to do is throw up token resistance to Republicans to make it look like they're doing something and maybe throw out a #BLM every so often and they're going to be heroes.

The Democrats might not be as bad as Republicans but that doesn't make them The Good Guys.

 

[Thaluikhain]

but we've seen this year (and 2016 too) that Corporate Democrats work harder to stop Progressives than Republicans ever have

I'm not seeing that. Anyway, doesn't that contradict the first 9 words of:

The Democrats might not be as bad as Republicans but that doesn't make them The Good Guys.

And, nobody (at least here) is saying the are The Good Guys, just the lesser of the only two possible evils the US gets to choose between. Not the same thing.

 

[tippy2k2]

And, nobody (at least here) is saying the are The Good Guys, just the lesser of the only two possible evils the US gets to choose between. Not the same thing.

That's fine, if you want to wish for the "lesser of two evils", that's your choice. I disagree with that stance but I can understand why someone would choose it. But I'm done with picking the lesser of two evils and I refuse to do it anymore. If Democrats want my vote, being good is now a requirement, not being just less shitty than the other side.

 

[Seanchaidh]

We don;t have enough liberals to be able to stop them.

And whose fault is that?

 

[Worgen]

The problem is that the media doesn't do that either.

They'd rather make fun of Trump for another stupid thing he said rather than report on the horrible things his administration is actually doing.

It's much easier to get clicks by writing a headline that says Trump told people to drink cleaning products (which he didn't) than it is to write an article about EPA budget cuts.

If what you said was true then why are we suddenly hearing about cuts to the post office, daily? Because that is holding politicians accountable.

 

[Thaluikhain]

That's fine, if you want to wish for the "lesser of two evils", that's your choice. I disagree with that stance but I can understand why someone would choose it. But I'm done with picking the lesser of two evils and I refuse to do it anymore. If Democrats want my vote, being good is now a requirement, not being just less shitty than the other side.

Likewise, I disagree with that, but I can certainly respect the decision of not supporting an evil, even a lesser one, on moral grounds.

 

[Seanchaidh]

If what you said was true then why are we suddenly hearing about cuts to the post office, daily? Because that is holding politicians accountable.

Cuts to the post office are disruptive enough that even the rich generally speaking (with the exception of those who would benefit by privatizing the post office-- and who therefore put a lot more money into it than those who oppose privatization) don't want them.