Democrats already retreating from public option before DNC even starts

[meiam]

Russia's standard of life plummeted after the turn to free-market economy.
China is currently on the path to become a superpower(if it isn't there yet.)

I think you picked bad examples.

Russia standard of living were plummeting before it switched to free market economy, the soviet economic model was not sustainable and was going to end up failing no matter what. That's why it collapse and that's why they switched to free-market economy. Except it was too late and their free market wasn't actually free (mostly ended up in the hand of connected former communist member).

China is still a pretty poor country, GDP per person is poor by western standard (about half what most do). If you were to split up China into many smaller nation with population similar to most western country, one or two of them would be prosperous (east coast, which are heavily reliant on private industry) and most would be very poor and unremarkable. Another way to look at it would be to multiply America population by 4 so that it would be similar to China and see how weak China actually look like compare to another country of its population size. If China had followed the path that japan or south korea had done after WW2, they'd be far richer today.

 

[Eacaraxe]

Where do you think the whole medical debt crisis came from? They are still not paying, will not be able to pay it and will not be able to pay ANY taxes to make up for it either way. We need to give them more money just to not be homeless right now as it is AND pay for their medical expenses 100%.

So clearly the solution must be to implement a system that doesn't eliminate co-pays and deductibles to end users, but rather shift the financial burden of clinical care plus administrative costs associated with debt collection to the US taxpayer, leading to a situation of paying more to receive less in turn.

What's the going rate for purchasing and securitizing bad medical debt on the market now? two to three cents on the dollar? Which institutions incur those losses, HCP's, debt collectors, or insurers? And which institution nominally causes those losses? And where are those losses coming from, might they be coming from places like prior auth loopholes and retrospective denials?

It isn't just about administrative costs, if you had read that link I posted earlier, they were showing a $200 billion shortfall even after addressing the administrative costs. The additional $20 Billion added was not going to even touch the shortfall to offset it.

Inability to pay by end users create budget shortfalls, news at eleven.

Subsidizing HIC's for the number of medical facilities actually needed would still need a great deal of funding, and you can expect the money spent never to be paid back because those areas will necessarily still be operating at a loss. The taxpayers in those regions will never be able to pay back any of the expenses.

No shit, that's why they're called "subsidies".

 

[lil devils x]

So clearly the solution must be to implement a system that doesn't eliminate co-pays and deductibles to end users, but rather shift the financial burden of clinical care plus administrative costs associated with debt collection to the US taxpayer, leading to a situation of paying more to receive less in turn.

What's the going rate for purchasing and securitizing bad medical debt on the market now? two to three cents on the dollar? Which institutions incur those losses, HCP's, debt collectors, or insurers? And which institution nominally causes those losses? And where are those losses coming from, might they be coming from places like prior auth loopholes and retrospective denials?


Inability to pay by end users create budget shortfalls, news at eleven.


No shit, that's why they're called "subsidies".

The idea here is to use this as a "step" not the end game solution. First we need to get everyone in the system. We have yet to even accomplish step one. When we add the public option while increasing regulation on insurers, it will run most insurers out of the market and gradually shift those in private insurance over to the public option. (That would put us in the same boat as Germany at that point) The more people we shift into the public option will increase the demand by voters for quality improvements. Eventually we will only have private insurance to cover " extras" and everyone will be in single payer. Along the way we will be shifting those currently on medicaid and medicare into this one combined public option.

I see the ACA as a step to a gradual shift to single payer, rather than in competition with it. IF we cannot get enough votes in congress to pass M4A on it's own, we gradually shift to it via the ACA under the radar.

Someone has to pay the subsidies, and that was not budgeted for as of yet. These are some of the " kinks" I was saying that need to be worked out here.

As for the medical debt, it drops off their credit in 7 years and never ever gets collected is the reality, mine included from when I was in college. Everyone in my family has medical debt that will never be collected.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

 

[Eacaraxe]

The idea here is to use this as a "step" not the end game solution.

Funny thing about "steps", you can trip and fall over them, or just stop. Or use the one step you took as an excuse for not taking any more. All of the above having occurred in the last decade alone. How'd that "important step towards universal health care" we took back in '73 called "HMO's" work out?

When we add the public option while increasing regulation on insurers, it will run most insurers out of the market and gradually shift those in private insurance over to the public option.

See earlier commentary you have yet to address about TRICARE and how the "public option" would be managed. Shoving the federal teat further into private insurers' mouths to pretend to compete with each other doesn't decrease private insurance market share.

The more people we shift into the public option will increase the demand by voters for quality improvements.

Literally 90% of Democratic voters and a majority of voting-age citizens already support M4A. And the last "step" we took, private insurers threw a shit fit despite being the main beneficiary of it and spent billions over a decade to propagandize against it. To the point we have the "left" party refusing to support a policy position advocated for by nine-tenths of its voters.

IF we cannot get enough votes in congress to pass M4A on it's own, we gradually shift to it via the ACA under the radar.

And you're not getting enough votes or negotiating power to pass an ACA expansion by making it your first offer at the table. Because God forbid Democrats remember how to play political hardball in any case except to punch left.

As for the medical debt, it drops off their credit in 7 years and never ever gets collected is the reality, mine included from when I was in college. Everyone in my family has medical debt that will never be collected.

Wow, seven whole years, huh? Tell that to the people who won't live seven months without access to health care.

In the meantime, feel free to entertain the conversation about how that debt builds up any time.

 

[Avnger]

"We'll move the country left by letting Republicans move the country further right" is trickle down theory for progressives.

"We'll make elected politicians implement our policy objectives by not voting" is trickle down theory for progressives.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

"We'll make politicians implement our policy objectives by not voting for them" is trickle down theory for liberals.

FTFY

 

[Gergar12]

FTFY

It works for moderate democrats, independents, and republicans.

 

[Revnak]

The reality is that if progressives EVER want anything to change they have to be willing to sit in 10 hr long lines at the polls if necessary due to conservatives setting it up that way. Voter suppression has always been a problem and the best way to change it is to beat them at their own game. The only other option is let the GOP keep it that way forever. You are doing exactly what the GOP WANT you to do by just letting them get away with it. They are intentionally trying to keep people from voting, that is why it takes 5 min to vote in conservative areas and they make sure they make it a s difficult as possible to be able to vote in the liberal areas. They design it that way for a reason, and you are just doing EXACTLY what conservatives want you to do by giving up.

Texas closes hundreds of polling sites, making it harder for minorities to vote

Guardian analysis finds that places where black and Latino population is growing by the largest numbers experienced the majority of closures and could benefit Republicans

www.theguardian.com

I live in a heavily conservative region, it only takes me a few minutes to vote every time, no lines, there are several easily accessible polling locations nearby. At the same time however, in the progressive regions, you cannot even park near the polling locations because they shut the streets down in front of them for construction and the lines are hours long... See how that works? Sure keep letting the conservatives control the polls, you are helping them by not voting. Erasing yourself is exactly what they hoped you would do, you are doing their job for them!

Primaries are often handled by the state party not the state government so your argument here that presumes turning the US into a one party Dem state will fix this is horrifyingly inaccurate. Also, typically those progressive cities are run by democrat mayors, so if they’re shutting down roads leading to polling places, doesn’t that mean Democrats are suppressing the progressive vote, not Republicans?

 

[Seanchaidh]

"We'll make elected politicians implement our policy objectives by not voting" is trickle down theory for progressives.

If no one is going to implement our policy objectives, that is indeed the clearest course. If they know you'll vote for them anyway, they have no reason to change.

And as for holding officials accountable, Colin Powell lied to the United Nations to instigate a war in Iraq killing or displacing millions of people and this year he was an honored guest and speaker at the Democratic National Convention.

 

[lil devils x]

Primaries are often handled by the state party not the state government so your argument here that presumes turning the US into a one party Dem state will fix this is horrifyingly inaccurate. Also, typically those progressive cities are run by democrat mayors, so if they’re shutting down roads leading to polling places, doesn’t that mean Democrats are suppressing the progressive vote, not Republicans?

You weren't talking about not voting in the primaries, you are talking about not voting in the general election. The primaries have their own issues as well. Mind you, I made it pretty clear we have conservatives existing in both parties here:
1)Democrats have conservatives, moderates and progressives
2)Republicans have conservatives and far right

So it isn't like the conservatives in the democratic party don't pull some of the same underhanded stunts the conservatives in the republican party pull, they both do it. Of course they do it, they want to retain control. As long as conservatives have the majority though we have to work with them. Sadly, we are having a entirely new generation of conservatives coming up to replace the ones we were hoping would kill over. Unless you know of some way to change that, this will be the situation for the immediate future. When " Liberal" stops being a dirty word in rural america, that will change, but progressives are the ones who have to make that happen, no one is doing it for us. In the end, it is up to us to do something about it, setting ourselves on fire and having everyone ignore us though isn't going to help the situation. Erasing ourselves by not voting is only hurting us, not helping make that happen faster. All we can do in the meantime is try to help the few progressives we do have in congress get something done by any means possible, and use their efforts to help us recruit more progressives. Positive action is how we make this happen faster, not giving up all together.

 

[lil devils x]

If they know you'll vote for them anyway, they have no reason to change.

The Democrats already know that if they slip at all, the GOP will swoop in like they always do. If that were not the case we wouldn't have Trump screwing everything up right now. Democrats have to get the conservatives, moderates AND progressives to work together within the party to win, the Republicans on the other hand are usually pretty united and don't have much of a problem doing that the majority of the time. The only reason why the Dems have been pushing right is because they know they cannot win the next election without flipping some conservative districts. The problem with the progressive voters is we are mostly all in the same locations they are already have too many votes in. In order to get a majority at all, we have to get a candidate elected in a region that doesn't like progressives. The only way I see for them to do that is run candidates those regions will vote for. It is much more difficult for the Dem's to win than the Republicans due to the current political landscape.

 

[Revnak]

You weren't talking about not voting in the primaries, you are talking about not voting in the general election. The primaries have their own issues as well. Mind you, I made it pretty clear we have conservatives existing in both parties here:
1)Democrats have conservatives, moderates and progressives
2)Republicans have conservatives and far right

So it isn't like the conservatives in the democratic party don't pull some of the same underhanded stunts the conservatives in the republican party pull, they both do it. Of course they do it, they want to retain control. As long as conservatives have the majority though we have to work with them. Sadly, we are having a entirely new generation of conservatives coming up to replace the ones we were hoping would kill over. Unless you know of some way to change that, this will be the situation for the immediate future. When " Liberal" stops being a dirty word in rural america, that will change, but progressives are the ones who have to make that happen, no one is doing it for us. In the end, it is up to us to do something about it, setting ourselves on fire and having everyone ignore us though isn't going to help the situation. Erasing ourselves by not voting is only hurting us, not helping make that happen faster. All we can do in the meantime is try to help the few progressives we do have in congress get something done by any means possible, and use their efforts to help us recruit more progressives. Positive action is how we make this happen faster, not giving up all together.

Aside from occasionally New York, most city mayors do not run as conservative Democrats so this still doesn’t line up with reality. And I stated my ways to deal with this “new generation of conservatives.” You just said you already do it despite repeatedly saying voting is the only way forward.

 

[lil devils x]

Aside from occasionally New York, most city mayors do not run as conservative Democrats so this still doesn’t line up with reality. And I stated my ways to deal with this “new generation of conservatives.” You just said you already do it despite repeatedly saying voting is the only way forward.

I am in Texas, where most anyone democrat is still conservative , including our mayors here, so yea they actually are. You stated your means to deal with the new generation of conservatives? by not voting? I apologize if I missed it, but could you please clarify. Not voting doesn't change anything. We already volunteer and donate, that is a given in addition to voting, not voting however, just makes you not matter to anyone and have no say in what happens. We have to do all of the above in addition to try to educate people on the reality of the world we live in so that hopefully we can change this within our lifetimes.

 

[lil devils x]

Wow, seven whole years, huh? Tell that to the people who won't live seven months without access to health care.

In the meantime, feel free to entertain the conversation about how that debt builds up any time.

You do not lose your access to healthcare with unpaid medical bills, you just keep getting more bills and seeing your doctor regularly. My healthcare never stopped in the process. My brother's healthcare never stopped, My sisters healthcare never stopped.. like I said, everyone in my family has unpaid medical bills and it has had ZERO impact on anyone's access to healthcare. I am one of ten children BTW. Your healthcare doesn't stop when you don't pay your medical bills, I have no idea why you think it does in the first place. After 7 years it drops from your credit and never gets paid. It is more of a problem for the healthcare facilities rather than the end user.

 

[Revnak]

I am in Texas, where most anyone democrat is still conservative , including our mayors here, so yea they actually are. You stated your means to deal with the new generation of conservatives? by not voting? I apologize if I missed it, but could you please clarify. Not voting doesn't change anything. We already volunteer and donate, that is a given in addition to voting, not voting however, just makes you not matter to anyone and have no say in what happens. We have to do all of the above in addition to try to educate people on the reality of the world we live in so that hopefully we can change this within our lifetimes.

Yeah most people don’t do the shit that isn’t voting and emphasizing the most alienating way to engage with politics above all else as the only means by which one attains political worth is idiotic. I by no means am telling people not to vote, I am telling them to engage with politics in literally any way that is more fulfilling than voting. If you screamed at half as many people about Qanon as you do about voting for Biden, we wouldn’t have a couple million Americans primed to carry out the day of the rope in a few months, and that’s just one example that I find particularly poignant because the entire reason so much of our population was ready to join such an immaterial and absurd movement as Qanon was because of the hyper-alienation of the post-modern condition which your rhetoric exacerbates.
Also places that aren’t Texas exist and have the same voter suppression happen during primaries and beyond so fuck off with that empty dismissal.

 

[Revnak]

You do not lose your access to healthcare with unpaid medical bills, you just keep getting more bills and seeing your doctor regularly. My healthcare never stopped in the process. My brother's healthcare never stopped, My sisters healthcare never stopped.. like I said, everyone in my family has unpaid medical bills and it has had ZERO impact on anyone's access to healthcare. I am one of ten children BTW. Your healthcare doesn't stop when you don't pay your medical bills, I have no idea why you think it does in the first place. After 7 years it drops from your credit and never gets paid. It is more of a problem for the healthcare facilities rather than the end user.

Debt slavery is cool actually

 

[lil devils x]

Yeah most people don’t do the shit that isn’t voting and emphasizing the most alienating way to engage with politics above all else as the only means by which one attains political worth is idiotic. I by no means am telling people not to vote, I am telling them to engage with politics in literally any way that is more fulfilling than voting. If you screamed at half as many people about Qanon as you do about voting for Biden, we wouldn’t have a couple million Americans primed to carry out the day of the rope in a few months, and that’s just one example that I find particularly poignant because the entire reason so much of our population was ready to join such an immaterial and absurd movement as Qanon was because of the hyper-alienation of the post-modern condition which your rhetoric exacerbates.
Also places that aren’t Texas exist and have the same voter suppression happen during primaries and beyond so fuck off with that empty dismissal.

The problem with that though is that we have too many people who are willing to tweet but not show up to vote. We need them to do both or it doesn't matter. One of the biggest problems progressives have is too many just do not show up to vote so progressives keep losing.

Not being Texas does not mean they are not still corporate run. They have their tentacles everywhere. If someone actually believes the Qanon BS, do you think trying to tell them the truth about ANYTHING is really going to matter? They can hear the truth everywhere they go and still convince themselves some crazy BS. Sorry, but I pretty much view them as a lost cause at this point. The biggest issue we still have is just getting progressives to get off their arse and vote at all. If they had been doing that all along, we would not be in as bad of shape as we are now. We are in this position now because they just couldn't be bothered for the most part.

 

[lil devils x]

Debt slavery is cool actually

Yes, debt sucks, we still have over $100,000 in my dad's medical bills sitting here even though he had medicare. No one is going to pay it. 3 years to go before it drops off my Moms credit. At least they still had access to healthcare in the meantime though. The thing is though "debt slavery" is just an accepted part of life for the American Poor. Otherwise they would never have a working refrigerator or stove or be able to have a place to live at all.

EDIT: BTW, My mom and brother are STILL racking up medical bills that will go unpaid in the hospital as we speak.

 

[Revnak]

The problem with that though is that we have too many people who are willing to tweet but not show up to vote. We need them to do both or it doesn't matter. One of the biggest problems progressives have is too many just do not show up to vote so progressives keep losing.

Not being Texas does not mean they are not still corporate run. They have their tentacles everywhere. If someone actually believes the Qanon BS, do you think trying to tell them the truth about ANYTHING is really going to matter? They can hear the truth everywhere they go and still convince themselves some crazy BS. Sorry, but I pretty much view them as a lost cause at this point. The biggest issue we still have is just getting progressives to get off their arse and vote at all. If they had been doing that all along, we would not be in as bad of shape as we are now. We are in this position now because they just couldn't be bothered for the most part.

Cool. Your praxis is to perpetuate the way things have been going until we all fucking die. Not giving a shit about Qanon when it is turning millions of people into potential McVeighs is dumb as hell, and there was plenty of time to care about that at least as much as you do voting before we got here.

Also, if corporations do have that long of tentacles (questionable language but ok) then how can you trust the Dems to ever change? You’re admitting defeat then carrying out an empty ritual to feel like you did something. It’s insane. Sure, I rail against the faux-progressivism of Democratic leadership all the time, but at least I think there’s options other than giving them more power to resolve this issue. You don’t. It’s... honestly sad. This is like talking to an actual Qanon follower. You’re fixated on an immaterial solution to your problems because reality has seemingly robbed you of all other options.