Developer Intent: Worth asking about (warning: Sexism mentioned)

[Vudu]

I'm brand spanking new here, but I've always had an eye on gaming news and an ear on what gamers think about it. I've always wanted to bring this topic up but I don't want trouble. Please read the following with this understanding.

Time and time again, sexism and the way women are portrayed comes up and there are strong opinions from many different sides of the argument. I wonder, though, why there's an argument at all. It all comes down to developer intent, right? And all that needs to happen when a game is announced is to ask the creators who their target audience is and if they are looking to diversify their audience away from males ages 13-38. If the answer is no, FINE. We have an understanding and those of us that are not prioritized can adjust our expectations accordingly. If the answer is yes, that's even better. And the next question will be, of course, "How?".

I think most can agree that no one can force a creator to cater to their needs. Twilight was written for young women who were into that sort of thing. There weren't petitions about how the author didn't cater to a male audience because men knew that this book wasn't FOR them (even though they are free to enjoy it if it's their thing). The problem is, when it comes to games, many developers don't flat out state their intended targets and individuals have to assume whether or not a creator takes their demographic into consideration when creating. I feel that, since sexism in games is becoming such a hot topic, this SHOULD be a necessary step. Why is it that we don't just ask ahead of time? Why do we let that area of understanding remain ambiguous and grey and leave those hoping for the best utterly disappointed?

I'd love to hear some thoughts.

 

[Savagezion]

Oh PR have answers ready for that which are slightly more vague than yes and no. OK way more vague. I think the reason is that they want to get however many of whomever to buy their game. No PR firm is going to abide by these rules. I do agree that a game stating its demographic is a good idea. However, the heavy hitters in the industry right now most likely don't and probably wouldn't. Mainly talking about EA and Activision there. Then Ubi always seems to follow their lead even though they aint as big. Microsoft and Sony maybe. Nintendo probably. But that isn't actual developer intent so I am off topic anyways. Gonna leave it there though.(edit: it would count on their exclusives though.)

We don't choose to do it, it's just on us to bring it up because the gaming industry is happy to just not talk about that. If you restrict yourself to only T for teen or younger and E for everyone games, you'll find there isn't oversexuality in them. SO the rating system is useful to guide you in this. The problem is when EA and Activision and such are advertising M games to minors. Dead Space 2 "your mom will hate it".

As for the sexism of Mario and Zelda... I still cannot take it seriously.

EDIT: Wow, that reads like M games make kids sexist. The problem I meant was with girls not boys. Young girls probably see many M games negatively. It would help to have some games that sexualised men in return. Giving the girls what the boys have. But I aint buying it. You all are gonna have to fund that stuff.

If the girls don't want it, fine. But you don't get to take it away from the boys.

 

[Vudu]

Well that's it then. Instead of squabbling among ourselves about whether certain content is suitable, we can direct intent directly to the developers and force them to give us a direct answer to a very direct question. How do we force them? we make it a PR disaster if they choose to remain ambiguous. If they keep their answers general, we'd keep our questions more specific with "yes" or "no" being the only response they can choose from. The key seems to be to do all of this BEFORE the game comes out. That way there are no arguments about content and no excuses to be made about it either. This solution just seems so simple, I'm very surprised no one has ever done it before; Pressed for a clear answer on targeted audience.

 

[Savagezion]

Well that's it then. Instead of squabbling among ourselves about whether certain content is suitable, we can direct intent directly to the developers and force them to give us a direct answer to a very direct question. How do we force them? we make it a PR disaster if they choose to remain ambiguous. If they keep their answers general, we'd keep our questions more specific with "yes" or "no" being the only response they can choose from. The key seems to be to do all of this BEFORE the game comes out. That way there are no arguments about content and no excuses to be made about it either. This solution just seems so simple, I'm very surprised no one has ever done it before; Pressed for a clear answer on targeted audience.

That would be fun if consumers did that. We did with the Xbone. (high fives!) But people unaware of the 'movement' are gonna call you entitled because it is just a game. Oh noes!

You'd probably have to keep doing it for a while on multiple titles.

 

[Phasmal]

I think most can agree that no one can force a creator to cater to their needs. Twilight was written for young women who were into that sort of thing. There weren't petitions about how the author didn't cater to a male audience because men knew that this book wasn't FOR them (even though they are free to enjoy it if it's their thing). The problem is, when it comes to games, many developers don't flat out state their intended targets and individuals have to assume whether or not a creator takes their demographic into consideration when creating. I feel that, since sexism in games is becoming such a hot topic, this SHOULD be a necessary step. Why is it that we don't just ask ahead of time? Why do we let that area of understanding remain ambiguous and grey and leave those hoping for the best utterly disappointed?

I'd love to hear some thoughts.

Twilight was one series in a sea of books.

Almost all triple A mainstream games are aimed at men.

If almost all books were aimed at women, you would have a point.

Sorry, but women play games, increasingly, and if developers are not willing to target the women who are playing their games (or at least try not to alienate them), then people are going to ask questions.

Also I'm not sure what developers stating that they don't even care if women play the game would accomplish.

 

[Vudu]

How can they? I'm not asking to be catered to. I'm asking a very direct question of if I'm being catered to at ALL. I'm fine with not being catered to. I play LOL fcs. The last thing those developers are interested is catering to a minority like me. But I like this to be told to my face instead of inferred. Have you seen that Connair instant hair curling do-hicky that uses hot air to curl hair? They don't mention it doesn't work for black people. But it would be nice if they did. We have to find out on our own. It's fine if you make a product that's not for everyone, but SAY who it's for. Don't make me find out the hard way by buying it, realizing this thing isn't for me, and then not trusting the makers from that point on.

 

[Phasmal]

We have to find out on our own. It's fine if you make a product that's not for everyone, but SAY who it's for. Don't make me find out the hard way by buying it, realizing this thing isn't for me, and then not trusting the makers from that point on.

Why are games not for women?
They are. And more and more women are playing them.

Also there is a quote button in the top right of the post and it's a lot easier for you to quote people.

 

[Vudu]

I think most can agree that no one can force a creator to cater to their needs. Twilight was written for young women who were into that sort of thing. There weren't petitions about how the author didn't cater to a male audience because men knew that this book wasn't FOR them (even though they are free to enjoy it if it's their thing). The problem is, when it comes to games, many developers don't flat out state their intended targets and individuals have to assume whether or not a creator takes their demographic into consideration when creating. I feel that, since sexism in games is becoming such a hot topic, this SHOULD be a necessary step. Why is it that we don't just ask ahead of time? Why do we let that area of understanding remain ambiguous and grey and leave those hoping for the best utterly disappointed?

I'd love to hear some thoughts.

Twilight was one series in a sea of books.

Almost all triple A mainstream games are aimed at men.

If almost all books were aimed at women, you would have a point.

Sorry, but women play games, increasingly, and if developers are not willing to target the women who are playing their games (or at least try not to alienate them), then people are going to ask questions.

Also I'm not sure what developers stating that they don't even care if women play the game would accomplish.

Well there are plenty of games that cater to women but they are usually contained in genre's that don't appeal to me personally. There are books for everyone. But how many fantasy books aimed at women with female leads aren't just romance books with wizards and dragons and sexy heroes that fall in love with them on sight? But there a plenty of kickass fantasy book titles where men are their own rockstars.

And as far as people asking questions when developers are not willing to target others, that's the point. As a developer, stand by your prerogative. If you are not going to cater to others, say so. I won't guilt trip a developer for that. If people ask a developer to justify it then they should justify it, even if it's only to say "We'd just prefer to stick to males for the time being." As a collective, we shouldn't make them feel bad for answering honestly but we SHOULD put on the pressure for not answering for their actions at all.

 

[Savagezion]

How can they? I'm not asking to be catered to. I'm asking a very direct question of if I'm being catered to at ALL. I'm fine with not being catered to. -snip-

Oh, they will. "They don't owe you anything" they'll say, and you'll need to smack your head to gain brain functions back. Many people don't realise as a consumer they have moral leverage over "evil companies". I mean, "what're ya gonna do?" The rally isn't as hard as the momentum and the rally is hard. I think nowadays rallys have to have the right pinnach or something like that. Mass Effect, Sim City, Sexism, Titanfall. Not a lot of people are gonna put time in on this if I had to guess. I could be wrong, if dressed up right, it may go somewhere. Controversy is always popular.

Oh hey welcome to escpaist btw. Nice first post.

 

[Vudu]

We have to find out on our own. It's fine if you make a product that's not for everyone, but SAY who it's for. Don't make me find out the hard way by buying it, realizing this thing isn't for me, and then not trusting the makers from that point on.

Why are games not for women?
They are. And more and more women are playing them.

Also there is a quote button in the top right of the post and it's a lot easier for you to quote people.

I never said games weren't for women. But I judge games on an individual level. My goal is to get the gaming community to ask individual developers of individual games "Who is your targeted audience? A re you looking to diversify from the usual white male demographic aged x to x? If so, how?"

That's it. It should be a standard question for every game that comes out. And it'd just like to press the point that it's OKAY to not want to diversify your audience. Just SAAAAAAYYY so so that those who are left out know what to expect.

 

[Phasmal]

Well there are plenty of games that cater to women but they are usually contained in genre's that don't appeal to me personally. There are books for everyone. But how many fantasy books aimed at women with female leads aren't just romance books with wizards and dragons and sexy heroes that fall in love with them on sight? But there a plenty of kickass fantasy book titles where men are their own rockstars.

And as far as people asking questions when developers are not willing to target others, that's the point. As a developer, stand by your prerogative. If you are not going to cater to others, say so. I won't guilt trip a developer for that. If people ask a developer to justify it then they should justify it, even if it's only to say "We'd just prefer to stick to males for the time being." As a collective, we shouldn't make them feel bad for answering honestly but we SHOULD put on the pressure for not answering for their actions at all.

There aren't plenty of triple A mainstream games that cater to women.
And I don't even need to be catered to, I just want to be not actively pushed out.

I don't really understand what you're arguing for here, just for developers to say to women `well this isn't for you`, and then women to just not play those games?

Because I don't see that happening.

 

[Savagezion]

Well there are plenty of games that cater to women but they are usually contained in genre's that don't appeal to me personally. There are books for everyone. But how many fantasy books aimed at women with female leads aren't just romance books with wizards and dragons and sexy heroes that fall in love with them on sight? But there a plenty of kickass fantasy book titles where men are their own rockstars.

And as far as people asking questions when developers are not willing to target others, that's the point. As a developer, stand by your prerogative. If you are not going to cater to others, say so. I won't guilt trip a developer for that. If people ask a developer to justify it then they should justify it, even if it's only to say "We'd just prefer to stick to males for the time being." As a collective, we shouldn't make them feel bad for answering honestly but we SHOULD put on the pressure for not answering for their actions at all.

There aren't plenty of triple A mainstream games that cater to women.
And I don't even need to be catered to, I just want to be not actively pushed out.

I don't really understand what you're arguing for here, just for developers to say to women `well this isn't for you`, and then women to just not play those games?

Because I don't see that happening.

He has basically stated he is a black male so his experience is not exactly the same but relatively. I am white, so it ain't my problem technically, lol. (Stating for humor, not to be a dick.) You need to be catered to to not be pushed out in a leasure hobby though. Otherwise, if not catered to, why chase the hobby? If games mostly sexualised men, I wouldn't care toplay them much either probably. If they sexualised both, I see no problem. If they sexualise mostly women, I can ignore the problem.

I see a fun way to fuck with marketing teams in this thread if people did it. Just jack their world all up. They might forget how to sell stuff and start giving us money accidentally. "Tell em whatever they want, we need to sell this game!" And we could make them tell us specific things about the content. But now we step in to the dreaded boycott phase.

 

[Vudu]

There aren't plenty of triple A mainstream games that cater to women.
And I don't even need to be catered to, I just want to be not actively pushed out.

I don't really understand what you're arguing for here, just for developers to say to women `well this isn't for you`, and then women to just not play those games?

Because I don't see that happening.

That's the comparison I made about books. There are plenty of books out there made for women just like there are plenty of games out there made for women. But the huge, kickass fantasy/suspense books with action and killing and plot are typically NOT written for women just like the huge kickass fantasy/suspense games with action and killing and plot are not made for women.

I'm arguing for creative intent to be put out on the table for all to see so that their is no confusion. What happens when a major release comes out that was made to appeal to men on the most basic levels? Feminists can't wait to jump on that and write article after article about it. Developers come under fire as far as the directions they chose to go with their work. BUT, if everything is laid out on the table in the beginning, then there will be no platform for these kind of complaints and the game in question can be judged on what it was intended on being. Articles about how certain content in games is sexist will be met with "And? They said x months ago that they were going to do this in order to appeal to crowd x. what did you expect? You knew exactly what they were going to do to appeal to their market cause they TOLD us. If it's not your think, don't buy it."

When the audience of a property is left ambiguous and unidentified, inaccurate expectations of the finished product are set and then there's an outcry when a game they thought would just be bullets for everyone turns out to be bullets for everyone and boobs for men. I am of the opinion that any outrage that stems from the content in games all comes down to lack of clarity on who it's primarily for and how they plan on winning that audience over.

 

[Phasmal]

You need to be catered to to not be pushed out in a leasure hobby though. Otherwise, if not catered to, why chase the hobby?

Cause I actually like to play games for gameplay? Jeez, you don't just play games because they sexualise ladies for you and cater to your every whim, do you? Fake geek boy *I joke*

If games mostly sexualised men, I wouldn't care toplay them much either probably. If they sexualised both, I see no problem. If they sexualise mostly women, I can ignore the problem.

Mostly I can ignore sexualisation as long as it has a place and isn't over the top but in games that usually isn't so.

I see a fun way to fuck with marketing teams in this thread if people did it. Just jack their world all up. They might forget how to sell stuff and start giving us money accidentally. "Tell em whatever they want, we need to sell this game!" And we could make them tell us specific things about the content. But now we step in to the dreaded boycott phase.

Eh, I just don't see this being a useful idea.
So they say it's made for men, they may not be right about that. Plenty of women play games `made for men` and ignoring the growing market for women just because you want to 100% cater to your bros is just not smart.

The conversations about sexism and gender and so on aren't going away any time soon, sorry guys.

 

[Vudu]

You need to be catered to to not be pushed out in a leasure hobby though. Otherwise, if not catered to, why chase the hobby?

I don't feel that way though. I can enjoy something that wasn't made for me. I just need to adjust my expectations. Movies definitely don't care to my demographic. I can only think of a few off of the top of my head. Blade, Alien and Aliens. I don't hate movies as a result. I don't avoid movies either. I simply adjust my expectations. If developers give people a chance to adjust their expectations by being very open and honest about who they are making their game for, a lot less people would be a lot less upset. You may walk out of a movie angry because you thought it was going to be something else or good. But if you're told ahead of time that it's a stupid, fun film, you'll treat it as such and walk out laughing.

 

[Savagezion]

You need to be catered to to not be pushed out in a leasure hobby though. Otherwise, if not catered to, why chase the hobby?

Cause I actually like to play games for gameplay? Jeez, you don't just play games because they sexualise ladies for you and cater to your every whim, do you? Fake geek boy *I joke*

I ain't gonna lie and say I enjoyed Fenris's company. I may have what some would see as homophobia but it is really just disinterest. I am one of the few guys I know who doesn't really care about lesbians. That just means I ain't invited. So meh. You could make a sexualised male I like though. LOL, a "Johnny Bravo" character would be great if he was running around in a speedo or even have a couple full frontal scenes.

If games mostly sexualised men, I wouldn't care toplay them much either probably. If they sexualised both, I see no problem. If they sexualise mostly women, I can ignore the problem.

Mostly I can ignore sexualisation as long as it has a place and isn't over the top but in games that usually isn't so.

I think you would see it less if more games to your tastes existed because you would opt those out for the ones more to your liking. I don't know what you game budget is but mine was pretty big the last couple years and I still didnt get everything I wanted. I mention that to stress how many games are out there and how many games are coming out.

I see a fun way to fuck with marketing teams in this thread if people did it. Just jack their world all up. They might forget how to sell stuff and start giving us money accidentally. "Tell em whatever they want, we need to sell this game!" And we could make them tell us specific things about the content. But now we step in to the dreaded boycott phase.

Eh, I just don't see this being a useful idea.
So they say it's made for men, they may not be right about that. Plenty of women play games `made for men` and ignoring the growing market for women just because you want to 100% cater to your bros is just not smart.

The conversations about sexism and gender and so on aren't going away any time soon, sorry guys.

You are dealing in absolutes there. As in no other companies can exist beside the ones that currently do. If the game industry doubles, that is twice the current games by twice the number of developers. you can 100% cater to both men and women by simply growing. No need to tear down and rebuild.

I just want to see consumers demand something, not reject something. At least this has some value in it for some consumers. If you pick up Catherine and see (White guys 18-30 ) you can go oh ok. It isn't a huge help, no. But I dig it. Mostly to have consumers push back. Perhaps the idea needs molding because I don't think it would get steam myself, but I am all about consumers talking about pushing back. Just don't get bloodlust and go overboard. WHich is easier said than done. It ain't nothing but channeled mob mentality.

 

[Phasmal]

I just want to see consumers demand something, not reject something. At least this has some value in it for some consumers. If you pick up Catherine and see (White guys 18-30 ) you can go oh ok. It isn't a huge help, no. But I dig it. Mostly to have consumers push back. Perhaps the idea needs molding because I don't think it would get steam myself, but I am all about consumers talking about pushing back. Just don't get bloodlust and go overboard. WHich is easier said than done. It ain't nothing but channeled mob mentality.

I still don't see it as useful, because pretty much EVERY game would have `White guys 18-30` on it.
And that wouldn't be any indication of whether I'm gonna like it or not.

EDIT: To be honest it just sounds like a nice way of saying `this isn't for you so you shouldn't voice an opinion about it or expect to be heard`.

 

[Vudu]

If the game industry doubles, that is twice the current games by twice the number of developers. you can 100% cater to both men and women by simply growing. No need to tear down and rebuild.

I almost agree with this but I see a problem. You're saying to expand instead of asking for change but that's easier said than done. Are you saying that if a certain demographic doesn't create their own content, they have no right to ask to be catered to by those outside of their demographic? Here's the thing. I like movies, games, and books but I can't get into ALL three industries. I can't pull myself up by my own bootstraps here. I focus on writing so I have to depend on others to handle the other industries. How many black females who share similar tastes do you think are out there trying to get into the gaming industry? Even if there were quite a few, there are many times MORE white males looking to do the same thing and cater to a demographic that has already been invested into. Recommending that I just wait for the industry to just expand is unrealistic and not at all fair. I'm not looking to be prioritized because I know this is a business. But I should still reserve the right for my input to be counted as a minority by those who claim to give a shit. And please be genuine about it. If you're going to have a black woman in a game, have a black woman in a game! Not a white woman tanned just enough to pass as ANY race. (whew I dunno where that mini rant came from lol).

 

[Savagezion]

You need to be catered to to not be pushed out in a leasure hobby though. Otherwise, if not catered to, why chase the hobby?

I don't feel that way though. I can enjoy something that wasn't made for me. I just need to adjust my expectations. Movies definitely don't care to my demographic. I can only think of a few off of the top of my head. Blade, Alien and Aliens. I don't hate movies as a result. I don't avoid movies either. I simply adjust my expectations. If developers give people a chance to adjust their expectations by being very open and honest about who they are making their game for, a lot less people would be a lot less upset. You may walk out of a movie angry because you thought it was going to be something else or good. But if you're told ahead of time that it's a stupid, fun film, you'll treat it as such and walk out laughing.

It's easier for me to "step into" another character besides white guys if the game gives me choices. WHen it is linear, I usually see myself as a spectator guide. I am a white guy and have brown hair in my thrities and Nathan Drake is a friend to me, not a persona of mine. Lara Croft is also a friend. Batman too. But, I am the Dragonborn and the chosen one in many realms as well as a dumb ass whiny Shepard who shot the starchild. My reputation precedes me in my gaming habits. (Although I rarely self insert) All the characters I roleplay I personify in some way usually. I 'get in their heads' and fiddle with stuff to try and make them interesting for me.

The system you describe would help me not buy something. Movies do turn me off quite a bit. I like grande adventure flicks, period pieces, and biopics mostly. I am a big dull dud when it comes to movies. I love superhero flicks though. That is my one connection to the outside movie world. I prefer TV. But over that I prefer games. I can see value in it because if so many games are reading (White guys 18-30) you can look at a library and instantly recognize ratios. No doubt many games today would get the white guys sticker. But when Steam has a whole bunch of white dots people may go "alright, what the hell"

The problem is getting honesty. Their job is not to lie, it is to misrepresent truth. Which is worse because of the word "technically".

 

[Vudu]

EDIT: To be honest it just sounds like a nice way of saying `this isn't for you so you shouldn't voice an opinion about it or expect to be heard`.

I don't mind games that don't cater to me. But I DO hate hate HATE it when a developer claims they're going to make strides and then don't. Like having a black female character with a skin color that could really be any race (including white with a tan) and straight hair. How is this a stride? Or maybe a developer is claiming to make a strong female character and do the equivalent of putting glasses and overalls on a supermodel. Yea, way to encourage change. Companies shouldn't be allowed to get away with this. If you want to make a sexy character, make a sexy character. If you don't want to make a character unmistakably black, then don't make her black at all. Forcing developers to be clear about their content will prevent them from Lying.