Diablo 3: Its the fault of the audience or the developers?

[DioWallachia]

Gonna be quick on this: (some music)


Seeing how the game became something that resembles what one does after completing Diablo 2 for the 50 bazillion time (As in, the late late Inferno game, where you only care about the gear and lvl up because at this point, you know every plot point and piece of dialog to the point of ad nauseum) It seems logical that Blizzard paid attention to THAT part that kept the game alive for so long and made Diavolo 3 accordingly in order to extend the lifespan of this game even MOAR. But they did that because that is what the audience found itself doing and talking about it and the developers didnt care enough to ask them why and do the research? or they DID actually listen to the fans and all this fiasco happened just BECAUSE the audience doesnt know shit about anything?

I know that something like that isnt true of course, since you can find EVERYWHERE good arguments about anything more often than people who are pure straw, the audience isnt as mindless and entitled as they say we are. I am just assuming that the developers entered a state where they ONLY listen to people who are more prestigious and important REGARDLESS of how valid their argument may be.

Still, makes you wonder why they missed the point so hard on what made the game good in the first place (what made it experience unique to the point of being followed upon this day)

What you guys think? When was the moment where they lost the way during the 12 years of development?

 

[evilneko]

Dafuq did I just read?

What are you saying? I can't understand it at all. Can we get a translator in here?

Then again I also despise D2.

 

[Ruzinus]

To steal something Btongue said about DA2...
Most people are complaining about Diablo 3 WRONG. I have honestly seen people toss around a ton of basic pop psych and then complain that Blizzard didn't Skinner box them enough. People are playing the game and realizing that something is wrong, something isn't matching up with what they expected from this game, and then just latching on to the first explanation they can come up with for why. It's not even a bad game, it's just a game that's entertaining for a while and then you're done with it, and people expected to play for forever because of their D2 memories.

Perhaps the most amusing part of it is that a lot of the complaints you see are about things that happened because Blizz listened to the people who played D2 the most. Which finally proves what everyone should've already known: Just doing whatever your biggest fans say you should isn't good game design.


To recap: People actually complain that Blizzard didn't Skinner box them hard enough. GG Humanity.

 

[evilneko]

To steal something Btongue said about DA2...
Most people are complaining about Diablo 3 WRONG. I have honestly seen people toss around a ton of basic pop psych and then complain that Blizzard didn't Skinner box them enough. People are playing the game and realizing that something is wrong, something isn't matching up with what they expected from this game, and then just latching on to the first explanation they can come up with for why. It's not even a bad game, it's just a game that's entertaining for a while and then you're done with it, and people expected to play for forever because of their D2 memories.

Perhaps the most amusing part of it is that a lot of the complaints you see are about things that happened because Blizz listened to the people who played D2 the most. Which finally proves what everyone should've already known: Just doing whatever your biggest fans say you should isn't good game design.


To recap: People actually complain that Blizzard didn't Skinner box them hard enough. GG Humanity.

So... people realized that endlessly grinding the same enemies for lewtz isn't fun?

Will wonders never cease...

 

[DioWallachia]

Dafuq did I just read?

What are you saying? I can't understand it at all. Can we get a translator in here?

Then again I also despise D2.

Why would anyone hate D2? what could possibly be wrong about that game? (smiles innocently so the victim picks up the bait of "correcting" my delusional persona with a very detailed explanation)

To recap: People actually complain that Blizzard didn't Skinner box them hard enough. GG Humanity.

You mean this video?:

Do you think it could have been avoided? as in, the developers of Diavolo 3 looking at how making games more simple or more.......streamlined, makes less and less money in the long run. The answer seems so simple, they just have to look around and take notes on that to make sure that they retain their sense of identity and core experience of the game, yet they just ignored that for reasons that i assume must be REALLY powerful.

Also, i was actually under the impresion that D3 IS a good Skinner Box on a "technical" lvl of the word, is just that now it is more obvious than ever. Like an alien using a paper thin mask to pass as a human, it isn't trying to hide it anymore.

 

[DioWallachia]

So... people realized that endlessly grinding the same enemies for lewtz isn't fun?

Will wonders never cease...

But Diablo 2 had a point, the grinding shit came as a side effect of the world created by its story.

 

[evilneko]

Dafuq did I just read?

What are you saying? I can't understand it at all. Can we get a translator in here?

Then again I also despise D2.

Why would anyone hate D2? what could possibly be wrong about that game? (smiles innocently so the victim picks up the bait of "correcting" my delusional persona with a very detailed explanation)

Y'know it works better when you don't announce your intention. Also, not biting.

So... people realized that endlessly grinding the same enemies for lewtz isn't fun?

Will wonders never cease...

But Diablo 2 had a point, the grinding shit came as a side effect of the world created by its story.

Nope, not biting.

 

[DioWallachia]

Nope, not biting.

BUT THOU MUST!

After all its the more sensible choice. You either answer my "straw" claims with logic and make yourself feel good about how awesome (and strangely correct) is your way of thinking is, or you keep evading the question and end up like a fool for doing so because you didnt debunt anything at all. What is there to loose? after all, i am just a raving lunatic in front of the keyboard, what chance do i have?

I love the kind of choices that aren't really a choices because its one sided as fucking hell.

SNIP

Expanding upon my previous question. What company actually was rewarded by listening to the fans? assuming that the company in question KNOWS how to make a game (not talking about a indie one or 1 person that made 1 game in its free time and was genuinely good, like IJI) but still decides to listen to the fans and make a sequel accordingly, and managed to make it work.

 

[Ruzinus]

No, I don't mean that video, although it's interesting that you grabbed a Btongue video.




The answer really ISN'T simple. I don't know if your head was in the sand when D3 came out or if you're just now starting to examine it or what. It was obvious that a lot of people were unhappy with it pretty quickly after release, but anyone who took a moment to actually read some of the complaints would quickly note that they varied greatly, and were sometimes contradictory. You also had people complaining about things that other people thought were great.

If you accepted everything the community said to Blizz, then:

-It was both too easy and too hard.
-Not having to reroll to try a different build was both an immense blessing and, (and and AND my GOD did I see this one a lot) the single greatest loss between D2 and D3.
-The fact that good rares beat shitty epics was both Blizzard forgetting what epic should have meant and utterly ruining the game, and Blizzard fixing a problem from D2 where everyone ultimately wore the same things.
-Dedicated Boss runs no longer being the best way to get loot was both Blizz cutting out the best part of D2, and Blizz cutting out the worst part of D2.
...there's more but it's 5 AM and I'm a bit fuzzy and I want to mention some other things, such as:

---The complaints and suggestions from the community were often extremely vague. For an example... ah! Right here.

they just have to look around and take notes on that to make sure that they retain their sense of identity and core experience of the game.

THAT STATEMENT IS SEMANTICALLY NULL. This is the CORE of whatever the fuck it is you're trying to say, and it communicates NOTHING but a vague sense of upsetness.

Also, i was actually under the impresion that D3 IS a good Skinner Box on a "technical" lvl of the word, is just that now it is more obvious than ever. Like an alien using a paper thin mask to pass as a human, it isn't trying to hide it anymore.

No. I mean, it is a Skinner Box, but it's much MUCH less of one than D2 was, and basically only is so because the genre unavoidably lends itself to Skinner Boxing. They actually experimented with D3, they took a risk, and the fact that they did so is beautiful, but the experiment failed. The idea was that high level runs would remain interesting not for the SB reward feeling of having pressed a lever until the right loot came out, but that the various affixes on elite monsters would provide challenges that actually varied in ways much more meaningful than having corridors be in different places.

It didn't work... though it's hard to be sure if it was the idea itself that failed, or if something else about the game sabotaged it. But it was damn fucking awesome of them to try. I mean, we SHOULD be playing games because we want to experience the gameplay, not because we're hoping that the boss will drop that legendary this time.

 

[DioWallachia]

they just have to look around and take notes on that to make sure that they retain their sense of identity and core experience of the game.

THAT STATEMENT IS SEMANTICALLY NULL. This is the CORE of whatever the fuck it is you're trying to say, and it communicates NOTHING but a vague sense of upsetness.

Also, i was actually under the impresion that D3 IS a good Skinner Box on a "technical" lvl of the word, is just that now it is more obvious than ever. Like an alien using a paper thin mask to pass as a human, it isn't trying to hide it anymore.

No. I mean, it is a Skinner Box, but it's much MUCH less of one than D2 was, and basically only is so because the genre unavoidably lends itself to Skinner Boxing. They actually experimented with D3, they took a risk, and the fact that they did so is beautiful, but the experiment failed. The idea was that high level runs would remain interesting not for the SB reward feeling of having pressed a lever until the right loot came out, but that the various affixes on elite monsters would provide challenges that actually varied in ways much more meaningful than having corridors be in different places.

It didn't work... though it's hard to be sure if it was the idea itself that failed, or if something else about the game sabotaged it. But it was damn fucking awesome of them to try. I mean, we SHOULD be playing games because we want to experience the gameplay, not because we're hoping that the boss will drop that legendary this time.

THIS is what i meant for "they just have to look around..". See, i can agree on this ballsy attempt on Bliz part to take a risk on making a better skinner box, because the way i see it, at least it will be part of gaming history and well documented for the future.

BUT! did they really have to loose 12 years and waste all that effort and money on MAKING ONE? i mean, why cant they just "look around" for a bit? there are TRIZILIONS of MMORPG to learn from IF what they wanted is to obtain information on how to do it. I would have appreciated it if the beauty of all this came from some kind of innovation after all that, it seems like a waste when there are plenty of other information sources available.

Now you may say that it was just for the chance to make MOAR money with the auction house so it doesn't matter if they fail, they would at least make a system where they will get back what they lost counting on the reputation they have and that the Skinner Box would at least hold the people interest for long enough.
You know? that kind of mentality reminds me of: "There is too much money behind this project so there is no POSSIBLE way for it to fail now." Kinda the same mentality when they made Star Wars: The Old Republic, and we ALL know how that turned up:

 

[DioWallachia]

But Diablo 2 had a point, the grinding shit came as a side effect of the world created by its story.

Yep in the exact same way that Diablo 3 does.

Here is my counter argument:

 

[Ruzinus]

D3 wasn't in development for 12 years. Saying that is like saying that Van Buren should be counted as part of Fallout 3's development time. Though... the fact that you used the phrase "better skinner box", when what they did was lessen the skinner box and try to make a better game to compensate... maybe you haven't understood a single thing I've said.

Not sure what you're saying with the MOAR MONEY LAWLZ. Yes, surely Activision execs were pressuring the D3 design time to find ways to maximize its profitability, and that must have been part of the decision to include an RMAH, but...

if the whole design intent was based around making money and not trying to make the best game they could, then !!!!!!!! THEY WOULD HAVE MADE IT MORE, NOT LESS, SKINNER BOX-Y. !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do I need to add more exclamation marks? Maybe.

You want them to "just look around"... at MMOs? What? Diablo 3 isn't an MMO. If there's anyone that knows how to make an MMO, it's Blizz, but they weren't making an MMO here.

You're basically saying that it's obvious what they SHOULD have done, but you're not actually saying that IS, just that it's obvious if we merely look around.

Look at what what what? To gain what lesson? Say something specific - what game should they have "looked around" at and what exactly should they have learned from it?

I am not aware of anyone who has ever successfully done what Blizzard attempted with Diablo 3 -- if you have an example, I'd love to see it, because I really want to play that game.

And if it doesn't exist now then I don't think we'll see it for a long time, because after the way people responded to D3, I doubt anyone's going to take a risk and try to make it -- at least not anyone with a budget that isn't shit.

 

[Maxtro]

Diablo 3 came out back in May, why do people still care about it?

I figure that most people who have the game have finished it a few times.

It's silly to expect a game to be fun forever.

 

[Nimzabaat]

D3 wasn't in development for 12 years. Saying that is like saying that Van Buren should be counted as part of Fallout 3's development time. Though... the fact that you used the phrase "better skinner box", when what they did was lessen the skinner box and try to make a better game to compensate... maybe you haven't understood a single thing I've said.

Not sure what you're saying with the MOAR MONEY LAWLZ. Yes, surely Activision execs were pressuring the D3 design time to find ways to maximize its profitability, and that must have been part of the decision to include an RMAH, but...

if the whole design intent was based around making money and not trying to make the best game they could, then !!!!!!!! THEY WOULD HAVE MADE IT MORE, NOT LESS, SKINNER BOX-Y. !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do I need to add more exclamation marks? Maybe.

You want them to "just look around"... at MMOs? What? Diablo 3 isn't an MMO. If there's anyone that knows how to make an MMO, it's Blizz, but they weren't making an MMO here.

You're basically saying that it's obvious what they SHOULD have done, but you're not actually saying that IS, just that it's obvious if we merely look around.

Look at what what what? To gain what lesson? Say something specific - what game should they have "looked around" at and what exactly should they have learned from it?

I am not aware of anyone who has ever successfully done what Blizzard attempted with Diablo 3 -- if you have an example, I'd love to see it, because I really want to play that game.

And if it doesn't exist now then I don't think we'll see it for a long time, because after the way people responded to D3, I doubt anyone's going to take a risk and try to make it -- at least not anyone with a budget that isn't shit.

Okay i'm a little lost. Firstly I liked Diablo 3, it felt very much like Diablo 2, so a little dated but fun. I never saw the point of grinding in games like that so i'm hearing that people are complaining about the same thing they loved in Diablo 2. Or Diablo. Not understanding that part at all. (People used to pay real money for items in Diablo 2, now they can do it legally... who cares?).

The question I have is: What as Blizzard attmepting with Diablo 3 in your opinion? A good sequel? Lots of companies (with the exception of Bioware, ZING!) have done good sequels. I'm not really sure what the point you are trying to make is. So please, enlighten me

 

[DioWallachia]

Diablo 3 came out back in May, why do people still care about it?

I figure that most people who have the game have finished it a few times.

It's silly to expect a game to be fun forever.

So? does Citizen Kane gets "old" after watching it and being 60+ years old? that doesnt stop people from arguing its merits and downfalls and what does it accomplish in the great scale of things.

Are you suggesting that something as a sequel to the most well know Western RPG ISNT worth talking if it succeeded in ANY field in that regard??

 

[DioWallachia]

You want them to "just look around"... at MMOs? What? Diablo 3 isn't an MMO. If there's anyone that knows how to make an MMO, it's Blizz, but they weren't making an MMO here.

Just a few to not make this a very long post:
1)It requires a permanent Internet connection like a MMO
2)It uses a simplified item system ala WoW, a MMO
3)D2 Inferno actually was capable of being beaten on your on on Singleplayer but in D3 you MUST have a party to even BEGIN to survive in Inferno, much like any MMORPG that focuses on having an entire guild to kill a single monster.

Why fix what isn't broken? right Bliz?

You're basically saying that it's obvious what they SHOULD have done, but you're not actually saying that IS, just that it's obvious if we merely look around.

Look at what what what? To gain what lesson? Say something specific - what game should they have "looked around" at and what exactly should they have learned from it?

The way you put it in your first post is that Bliz actually wanted to take risk on making a good Skinner Box, when all they had to do is to look at the competition (the failed Wow Clones and more) to avoid having to do something as expensive as did. What games you ask? fucking ANYONE who failed at making a Skinner Box is enough, plenty of corpses for the ravens to scavenge. Or are you suggesting that D3 is so unique in the execution of its SB that has NOTHING to learn from everybody else?

 

[Ascarus]

So... people realized that endlessly grinding the same enemies for lewtz isn't fun?

Will wonders never cease...

actually i would argue that people quickly learned that grinding for gear was pointless in D3, due in part to the RNG AND random skill allotment (even on set pieces) and the fact that it was far easier to just farm (or buy) gold and get what you need off the AH.

why farm, when you can buy? why farm, when 99% of the drops, including rares and legendaries, is pure vendor trash? why farm, when there is little motivation to do so?

 

[NightHawk21]

See I think the problem is that they rushed the game (probably due to some annoying date activision put on them). There were (or rather still are) large parts of the game that are still missing. The problem is (at least in my opinion) is even if they work on these slowly there are some very small changes they could make to make the game infinitely better and would take them maybe a week or two total to implement. Just stuff like a few more levels to keep the progression going into Inferno, or reorganizing the elite affixes so that some monsters don't have stupid hard affixes.

Combine their inability or lack of motivation to give players something to do (no doubt to save for an expansion pack), and the absolute silence that has been going on for over 3 weeks now and you have a very angry fanbase. For anyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about, the last real correspondence between blizz and players was the letter one of their higherups posted, from then on its just been dead air.

3)D2 Inferno actually was capable of being beaten on your on on Singleplayer but in D3 you MUST have a party to even BEGIN to survive in Inferno, much like any MMORPG that focuses on having an entire guild to kill a single monster.

I don't know what game you're playing but that statement is the exact opposite of D3. D3 inferno is leaps and bounds easier as a solo character as opposed to being in a party (even more so now after a couple changes). Before the changes Inferno mobs used to scale something like +110% hp/player, and + 40% damage/player. So basically going from 1 to 2 players saw you figthing mobs that were more than twice as tanky, and were hitting you for almost 1.5x the damage (seeing as how most mobs will already OHK a squishy class this pretty much ensured it). This is even further solidified that your chances of finding a magic item are grouped when in a party so if you have the highest MF, partying decreases your chances of getting a rare/magic.