Diablo 3 no offline reasoning summarized by Penny Arcade

[ChaosBorne]

Dude, the game isn't out and there has been minimal coverage on the game itself. You can't just claim it isn't worth your money right off the bat.

If you do, then you just don't like the game. Not because of the online requirement, but because you don't like dungeon crawlers. I loved Diablo 1, and 2, and Diablo 3 looks like more goodness of the same flavor, so it's worth my money.

Does the simple fact that it requires an internet connection derive from the experience at all? No.

actually yes it does, because my internet connection isn't perfect, which means for one i wouldn't even be able to experience the game on a fairly regular basis.

let me be very clear, i loved playing diablo 1 and 2, but gameplay isn't the only selling point of a game for me, a lot more goes into my decision making process then a simple does it play the same? yes? good then i'll buy it. if that's all that is required for you by all means buy the game.

if you seriously don't mind being black balled by game developers even more, then support every stupid decision they make, make them feel like they are in the right for further discriminating against their customers, don't expect everybody to feel the same way you do, some of us would actually like to not be treated like scum for wanting to play a game, some of us would like to be shown the same respect that we showed the developer when we bought their game and supported them, is that really so much to ask for?

and why the hell shouldn't i be able to say it's not worth my money right off the bat when you do the exact same thing except in favor of diablo 3, you have the same amount of information available as i do, yet for some reason you seem to think saying it isn't worth my time/money is somehow bad while saying it is worth time/money is good, how can you justify that exactly?

i'd prefer it if you didn't contradict yourself, it makes taking you seriously very difficult.

 

[Vhite]

D3 no, Torchlight 2 yes

Or... OR... D3: probably, Torchlight 2: No, Sacred 3: Most definitely

Sacred 3?! You just made my day.

 

[ChaosBorne]

I said it looks like it's more of the same good stuff, it wasn't definite. I'm making assumptions based on past games and Blizzard's history. You're making assumptions based on a system that hasn't been in use yet!

But don't worry, I'm sure there will be offline cracks from day one. There's no real guilt since you purchased the game, so you should be able to enjoy it offline anyway.

I don't get what the big deal is, then. lol.

the big deal is as i said in my first post, i shouldn't need third party patches to enjoy a game.

and just to be clear for everyone saying *stop bitching just get a crack to "fix" the game* we shouldn't have to get a crack to enjoy the game, the game should be enjoyable straight out of the box, and whenever DRM of any kind messes that up, it has failed.

it is simply off-putting.

i enjoyed the previous games as they were gameplay wise, the additions to D3 turn me off to it and i for one am not about to reward blizzard for crappy decision making skills, we have enough jackasses ruining our hobby without making it profitable for them.

so i'll save my money for games that don't penelize me or try to make me spend x amount of money to stay competative in a PvP environment after i've already paid for the game itself. (and i realize most of the money for the AH isn't going to blizzard but there is no reason they couldn't have just made it work with in game gold, now they just look like greedy money grabbers instead of caring developers who try their hardest to create an enjoyable experience.)

 

[Navvan]

By their own admission, Diablo isn?t not really focused around a PVP experience; if you?re playing with someone who has duped items or whatever, all it means is that you will be more likely to defeat Satan. Without a means to gain advantage over another, ?cheating? as a concept becomes substantially more opaque. Who is the cheated party, precisely? Satan the Devil? Fuck him, who cares.

Who is being cheated? This is the part of the movie where, in a series of retrospective realizations cut with you looking at your own face in the rearview mirror, you come bit by bit to the heart of it. The person you are cheating is Blizzard, Blizzard in the aggregate, with your attempts to interfere with their digital marketplace. You mustn?t play offline or goof around with your files or any other naughty business because they are endeavoring to transform your putative ownership into a revenue stream.

There, now don?t you feel better?

And there it is. Blizzard didn't include offline mode because they can't sell you shit if you do that.

D3 no, Torchlight 2 yes

Don't you people make enough fucking money? You're like one of the most successful companies in the industry. I'm glad I washed my hands of you. Blizzard, you're the worst damned thing for the industry. The love of money is the root of all evil, so you must be right up there with Satan's cat.

You do know that Blizzard isn't forcing you to spend anymore money after you buy your copy of the game right? I feel the need to remind you of that. In fact, Blizzard is even allowing a method through the auction house for YOU to make money and all they will take out of it is maybe $0.05 usd. Also, shame on you for calling Blizzard the worst company for trying to make money by selling their product. What company doesn't try to make money? Do you even realize that Blizzard needs money to make the games we enjoy? I must say, you sound like the only reason you hate Blizzard is because of jealousy and pride. Sins in and of themselves. Again, I will remind you that Blizzard is not forcing anyone to spend anymore money after they buy the game. Some people get a $300 allowance from their parents every week and want to spend extra money on a game to get a little ahead. Why shouldn't Blizzard allow people to spend more money if they want to? Because you would call them evil for taking money in exchange for their product?

You've actually missed the entire point. You've missed it so thoroughly and completely that I'm worried. I've no problem with them making a game, selling that game, and making money for selling that game. My problem is (if you think they're just going to take five cents you're naive, try 10 to 15 percent charitably) that they are being extremely prejudice against people who don't have stable or hard-line internet. They're saying, "Screw you if you can't be online for single player." I wouldn't actually be so mad if it were just some woefully stupid DRM, but it's to make sure a real. money auction house stays balanced why because a regulated economy make the most money. They're not happy with people buying a game, they can only sell you a game once. Why should they care about the guy who just wants to play the single player game and will probably never go online? Because he only payed and will only pay sixty bucks. They want more money. They're not even farming peoples' time for monthly fees (WoW). They want to make sure they get a real-world cut for fake items. They're not even real. They have no value outside the game. They can't even use some token or something.

They just want money. I'll bet everything in Diablo 3 is made so it gets people to pay more into it than they'll ever get out of it. That's greed. I have a problem with greed, not profit.

Would it be fair to assume that you hate micro-transactions in general? That is all they are doing, adding additional micro-transactions in a more inventive way. A company's goal is to make as much money for their product as possible, but its not all going to one entity. Some of that money goes into shareholdings and owners pockets; Some of it into the talents who made the game or the hiring of new talent.

Searching for new (completely optional) revenue streams is not greed. If they balanced the game around the idea that you have to buy items in order to compete or play then yes it would be greed. But there is nothing within this system that mandates that, or even changes the route of play for those who have no desire to spend additional money. Its a much better system than say, WoW for the player in every way I can think of. The main reason I quit WoW fairly early in its launch was because no matter what I did or how long I played the game I would have to continuously pay to play.

Greed is an excessive desire to possess wealth or goods with the intention to keep it for one's self. I do not see how seeking a new revenue (again completely optional) fits that description.

I would agree with you completely if it was in any way not a completely optional purchase. However I actually see this system as a step in the right direction as opposed to subscriptions. I do however dislike the always online for how it screws over those without a solid connection.

 

[ms_sunlight]

You use that word a lot. I do not think it means what you think it does

I love you for this.

 

[robert01]

[...]Go ahead and keep complaining that the game is online only just like countless other games (WoW).

WoW is an MMORPG, people that buy it KNOW they have to be online to play it hence the ONLINE part of the MMORPG genre of the game.
Diablo is not an MMO, you can't jump into groups of 10, 25 or 40 players and raid a dungeon. The online thing is DRM, and for a lot of people it is a deal breaker out of concept. Not that they have shitty internet, my internet RARELY cuts out, and I won't buy it on the premise of the DRM, same with UbiSoft games that have that DRM in it, I won't but it. The only way to tell these companies that you don't like what they are doing is to tell them with your wallet, your voice means nothing if you still go out and purchase the game, or even pirate it.

 

[Jaime_Wolf]

A company wants to make money by taking steps to prevent people from cheating?

THE NERVE.

This thread is dripping with so much entitlement that it makes me sick to my stomach. Hacking items into a game with a multiplayer community is not even remotely the same thing as modding. Comparing the two is absolutely fucking ridiculous and you should feel terrible if you've done so.

So no one can enjoy the single-player--one, uno, solitary, no one else to harm-- game without a stable internet connection because Blizzard knows that we're all just evil little imps ready to totally destroy their game. Yes, Blizzard, lets punish people for what they might do. You're such a progressive and relevant company. As long as Blizzard comes on a product I'm not buying it.

I should have been clearer. I have no problem with the people who are unhappy that single-player will be difficult or impossible without a steady connection. That's clearly a problem for a certain segment of the population (though I don't think this has anything to do with being progressive - if anything it's progressive to move to an always-online system as stable connections become more and more commonplace).

What I have a problem with is everyone saying that Blizzard is a terrible company because they're doing this for money. Why else should they be doing it? The naivety involved is staggering and the sense of entitlement (companies should value my own particular needs even when it costs them a significant amount of money to do so) is blatant and obnoxious.

In short, it sucks that this decision excludes a lot of people, but suggesting that it's unreasonable because it's financially motivated is pretty ridiculous. It might still be unreasonable and there might still be a better solution - I'm just tired of seeing all of the arguments that amount to suggesting that Blizzard is "selling out". Of course they are. That's what businesses do: they sell things, they make money. Games are made to make money, not just to please you. It's usually a good idea to please people too since that tends to make more money, but if they spend a lot of time trying to please people instead of making money, they have less money to make games with.

And then there are the ridiculous comparisons to modding. I shouldn't even need to say how dumb those sound when we're talking about a game where all characters can be taken online.

(I don't really get the "relevant" part. They produce several of the most popular games in the world and are about to release even more games likely to be just as popular. They are pretty definitely relevant. I do not think this word means what you think it means.)

 

[Inkidu]

By their own admission, Diablo isn?t not really focused around a PVP experience; if you?re playing with someone who has duped items or whatever, all it means is that you will be more likely to defeat Satan. Without a means to gain advantage over another, ?cheating? as a concept becomes substantially more opaque. Who is the cheated party, precisely? Satan the Devil? Fuck him, who cares.

Who is being cheated? This is the part of the movie where, in a series of retrospective realizations cut with you looking at your own face in the rearview mirror, you come bit by bit to the heart of it. The person you are cheating is Blizzard, Blizzard in the aggregate, with your attempts to interfere with their digital marketplace. You mustn?t play offline or goof around with your files or any other naughty business because they are endeavoring to transform your putative ownership into a revenue stream.

There, now don?t you feel better?

And there it is. Blizzard didn't include offline mode because they can't sell you shit if you do that.

D3 no, Torchlight 2 yes

Don't you people make enough fucking money? You're like one of the most successful companies in the industry. I'm glad I washed my hands of you. Blizzard, you're the worst damned thing for the industry. The love of money is the root of all evil, so you must be right up there with Satan's cat.

You do know that Blizzard isn't forcing you to spend anymore money after you buy your copy of the game right? I feel the need to remind you of that. In fact, Blizzard is even allowing a method through the auction house for YOU to make money and all they will take out of it is maybe $0.05 usd. Also, shame on you for calling Blizzard the worst company for trying to make money by selling their product. What company doesn't try to make money? Do you even realize that Blizzard needs money to make the games we enjoy? I must say, you sound like the only reason you hate Blizzard is because of jealousy and pride. Sins in and of themselves. Again, I will remind you that Blizzard is not forcing anyone to spend anymore money after they buy the game. Some people get a $300 allowance from their parents every week and want to spend extra money on a game to get a little ahead. Why shouldn't Blizzard allow people to spend more money if they want to? Because you would call them evil for taking money in exchange for their product?

You've actually missed the entire point. You've missed it so thoroughly and completely that I'm worried. I've no problem with them making a game, selling that game, and making money for selling that game. My problem is (if you think they're just going to take five cents you're naive, try 10 to 15 percent charitably) that they are being extremely prejudice against people who don't have stable or hard-line internet. They're saying, "Screw you if you can't be online for single player." I wouldn't actually be so mad if it were just some woefully stupid DRM, but it's to make sure a real. money auction house stays balanced why because a regulated economy make the most money. They're not happy with people buying a game, they can only sell you a game once. Why should they care about the guy who just wants to play the single player game and will probably never go online? Because he only payed and will only pay sixty bucks. They want more money. They're not even farming peoples' time for monthly fees (WoW). They want to make sure they get a real-world cut for fake items. They're not even real. They have no value outside the game. They can't even use some token or something.

They just want money. I'll bet everything in Diablo 3 is made so it gets people to pay more into it than they'll ever get out of it. That's greed. I have a problem with greed, not profit.

Would it be fair to assume that you hate micro-transactions in general? That is all they are doing, adding additional micro-transactions in a more inventive way. A company's goal is to make as much money for their product as possible, but its not all going to one entity. Some of that money goes into shareholdings and owners pockets; Some of it into the talents who made the game or the hiring of new talent.

Searching for new (completely optional) revenue streams is not greed. If they balanced the game around the idea that you have to buy items in order to compete or play then yes it would be greed. But there is nothing within this system that mandates that, or even changes the route of play for those who have no desire to spend additional money. Its a much better system than say, WoW for the player in every way I can think of. The main reason I quit WoW fairly early in its launch was because no matter what I did or how long I played the game I would have to continuously pay to play.

Greed is an excessive desire to possess wealth or goods with the intention to keep it for one's self. I do not see how seeking a new revenue (again completely optional) fits that description.

I would agree with you completely if it was in any way not a completely optional purchase. However I actually see this system as a step in the right direction as opposed to subscriptions. I do however dislike the always online for how it screws over thosein without a solid connection.

It's greed because they're forcing people to have to play connected for single-player. The entity that forces that option is a real-money auction house. They could easily separate the singeplayer from the multiplayer. This shows they don't want you playing singleplayer, and while they're not shoving it down your throat that the auction house is the way to go. They obviously want real money for it. I don't dislike micro-transactions. I think it's a pretty cool concept to the monthly fee. However, this wanting real money for it s wrong. It should be either game gold or pre-paid tokens. You can't make money when people use game gold, and you make money when they use tokens. So the real-world AH is just making sure Blizzard gets a slice of all the action that comes through the house. It rewards the players with the deepest pockets not the most skill or patience. I like the twenty tokens or ten thousand game money structure. That promotes skill and the quick fix for people who are just struggling.

So yeah, it's greed. It's greed on the companies behalf. It's greed because the want to force people online to support the machine that will make them money. That's greed or some kind of perverse Skinner Box slavery and I'd rather just have the former.

I'm not going to get it because I couldn't play it if I wanted to, and yeah maybe greed's the wrong word, but I don't know a better one for intense selfishness. Something in this whole thing just rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Jaime_Wolf]

By their own admission, Diablo isn?t not really focused around a PVP experience; if you?re playing with someone who has duped items or whatever, all it means is that you will be more likely to defeat Satan. Without a means to gain advantage over another, ?cheating? as a concept becomes substantially more opaque. Who is the cheated party, precisely? Satan the Devil? Fuck him, who cares.

Who is being cheated? This is the part of the movie where, in a series of retrospective realizations cut with you looking at your own face in the rearview mirror, you come bit by bit to the heart of it. The person you are cheating is Blizzard, Blizzard in the aggregate, with your attempts to interfere with their digital marketplace. You mustn?t play offline or goof around with your files or any other naughty business because they are endeavoring to transform your putative ownership into a revenue stream.

There, now don?t you feel better?

And there it is. Blizzard didn't include offline mode because they can't sell you shit if you do that.

D3 no, Torchlight 2 yes

Don't you people make enough fucking money? You're like one of the most successful companies in the industry. I'm glad I washed my hands of you. Blizzard, you're the worst damned thing for the industry. The love of money is the root of all evil, so you must be right up there with Satan's cat.

You do know that Blizzard isn't forcing you to spend anymore money after you buy your copy of the game right? I feel the need to remind you of that. In fact, Blizzard is even allowing a method through the auction house for YOU to make money and all they will take out of it is maybe $0.05 usd. Also, shame on you for calling Blizzard the worst company for trying to make money by selling their product. What company doesn't try to make money? Do you even realize that Blizzard needs money to make the games we enjoy? I must say, you sound like the only reason you hate Blizzard is because of jealousy and pride. Sins in and of themselves. Again, I will remind you that Blizzard is not forcing anyone to spend anymore money after they buy the game. Some people get a $300 allowance from their parents every week and want to spend extra money on a game to get a little ahead. Why shouldn't Blizzard allow people to spend more money if they want to? Because you would call them evil for taking money in exchange for their product?

You've actually missed the entire point. You've missed it so thoroughly and completely that I'm worried. I've no problem with them making a game, selling that game, and making money for selling that game. My problem is (if you think they're just going to take five cents you're naive, try 10 to 15 percent charitably) that they are being extremely prejudice against people who don't have stable or hard-line internet. They're saying, "Screw you if you can't be online for single player." I wouldn't actually be so mad if it were just some woefully stupid DRM, but it's to make sure a real. money auction house stays balanced why because a regulated economy make the most money. They're not happy with people buying a game, they can only sell you a game once. Why should they care about the guy who just wants to play the single player game and will probably never go online? Because he only payed and will only pay sixty bucks. They want more money. They're not even farming peoples' time for monthly fees (WoW). They want to make sure they get a real-world cut for fake items. They're not even real. They have no value outside the game. They can't even use some token or something.

They just want money. I'll bet everything in Diablo 3 is made so it gets people to pay more into it than they'll ever get out of it. That's greed. I have a problem with greed, not profit.

Would it be fair to assume that you hate micro-transactions in general? That is all they are doing, adding additional micro-transactions in a more inventive way. A company's goal is to make as much money for their product as possible, but its not all going to one entity. Some of that money goes into shareholdings and owners pockets; Some of it into the talents who made the game or the hiring of new talent.

Searching for new (completely optional) revenue streams is not greed. If they balanced the game around the idea that you have to buy items in order to compete or play then yes it would be greed. But there is nothing within this system that mandates that, or even changes the route of play for those who have no desire to spend additional money. Its a much better system than say, WoW for the player in every way I can think of. The main reason I quit WoW fairly early in its launch was because no matter what I did or how long I played the game I would have to continuously pay to play.

Greed is an excessive desire to possess wealth or goods with the intention to keep it for one's self. I do not see how seeking a new revenue (again completely optional) fits that description.

I would agree with you completely if it was in any way not a completely optional purchase. However I actually see this system as a step in the right direction as opposed to subscriptions. I do however dislike the always online for how it screws over thosein without a solid connection.

It's greed because they're forcing people to have to play connected for single-player. The entity that forces that option is a real-money auction house. They could easily separate the singeplayer from the multiplayer. This shows they don't want you playing singleplayer, and while they're not shoving it down your throat that the auction house is the way to go. They obviously want real money for it. I don't dislike micro-transactions. I think it's a pretty cool concept to the monthly fee. However, this wanting real money for it s wrong. It should be either game gold or pre-paid tokens. You can't make money when people use game gold, and you make money when they use tokens. So the real-world AH is just making sure Blizzard gets a slice of all the action that comes through the house. It rewards the players with the deepest pockets not the most skill or patience. I like the twenty tokens or ten thousand game money structure. That promotes skill and the quick fix for people who are just struggling.

So yeah, it's greed. It's greed on the companies behalf. It's greed because the want to force people online to support the machine that will make them money. That's greed or some kind of perverse Skinner Box slavery and I'd rather just have the former.

I'm not going to get it because I couldn't play it if I wanted to, and yeah maybe greed's the wrong word, but I don't know a better one for intense selfishness. Something in this whole thing just rubs me the wrong way.

You do comprehend that the items from the auction house are in-game items, no? It's not a store of special items, it's a store of items being sold by other players - items that they found in the game. So you can't buy the items from the auction house without real money, but you don't need to - you can just earn them in the game the same way the people who put them into the auction house did. The time/money microtransaction tradeoff you speak of is very definitely in effect here.

They're not even micro-transactions to Blizzard for the item, they're a transaction fee. Other players put up the items, Blizzard takes a rather miniscule cut of the price, and the rest of the money goes to the person who put up the item. It is one thing and one thing only - a replacement for people selling items on ebay and such. Except in this case they gain a legitimate way to do it, they're more easily organised, and no one can get screwed over when they buy an item from some external site and then never actually get it.

Also, once again, companies are interested in making money. I don't know of many major non-profit game publishers or studios. This is how business works. If you have a problem with this, you should probably never buy anything ever again.

 

[olicon]

I think SC2 is already pirated. I'll check the nearest mall next time I go, but I'm pretty damn sure I saw it since forever ago. (I'll try to buy and install it too, just for good measures). Before you say anything, I do not condone piracy--I already have my own legit copy, thank you. Never liked it though. I'm just not a fan of RTS.

Personally, I do not mind always-online too badly, since my internet over here is pretty good. I think you would be able to do the same as SC2 (or Steam), which is that once activated, you COULD still play the offline mode. Your records wont' be kept, etc, but you could.

Not having LAN multiplayer is definitely problematic for a large group of people, especially college students. As for me? Well..that situation no longer applies. The friend living closest to me may only be 15 minutes away, but the next one is 2 hours off. LAN is not quite an option for a pretty large majority of gamers.

auction house

In the preview (from RPGamer I believe), they said that the auction house does not require real money.
1) You can buy things with in-game gold
2) It takes real money to put things up on auction as a one-time fee--I don't believe Viv-Bliz takes a percentage cut afterward.

 

[ms_sunlight]

Also, once again, companies are interested in making money. I don't know of many major non-profit game publishers or studios. This is how business works. If you have a problem with this, you should probably never buy anything ever again.

That's a bit fatuous; we make complex choices all the time when it comes to our consumer decisions. Everything is balancing affordability with ethics with enjoyment. I'm happy to pay a bit more for my clothes in order to buy them from companies that have a good rep for avoiding sweatshop labour. When I buy meat, I try to get something that's been reared in the UK (so no live transporting) to at least Freedom Food standards.

Me, I can live without crap DRM and stupid microtransaction gouging, amongst other things. I'm happy with that. There's lots of fun to be had without that sort of nonsense.

 

[Ashbax]

And for the record torchlight 2 is going to price around 20 bucks, it's not like the average person can't afford both.

Excuse me, this isnt a case of who can afford what, just because you have the funds to pay for something doesnt mean you can. This is not about having limited funds and choosing what to spend them on, this is about having pride in being a consumer, and having consumer rights.

People are angry because they would have bought Diablo 3, and were excited for it, until a lot of features were announced that people didnt like, and now they do not want to give blizzard money for that, something they wont enjoy, but they could have if it didnt get messed up like it did. They don't want to reward blizzard for pulling a move like that which, if makes them enough money, they may think is a good thing to do for future games, and it will become the norm. Which is bad.

 

[Arisato-kun]

I will buy still buy Diablo 3 because it's Diablo 3.

 

[Jaime_Wolf]

Also, once again, companies are interested in making money. I don't know of many major non-profit game publishers or studios. This is how business works. If you have a problem with this, you should probably never buy anything ever again.

That's a bit fatuous; we make complex choices all the time when it comes to our consumer decisions. Everything is balancing affordability with ethics with enjoyment. I'm happy to pay a bit more for my clothes in order to buy them from companies that have a good rep for avoiding sweatshop labour. When I buy meat, I try to get something that's been reared in the UK (so no live transporting) to at least Freedom Food standards.

Me, I can live without crap DRM and stupid microtransaction gouging, amongst other things. I'm happy with that. There's lots of fun to be had without that sort of nonsense.

Fair enough. I was more trying to suggest that it isn't inherently evil to want to make money. If you're doing something unethical to make money, then obviously that can be a problem. But wanting to make money in the first place isn't in itself unethical (by prevailing standards anyway - and if you're going to take the stance that wanting to make money is unethical and refuse to buy products for that reason, you're left with very few things you can ethically buy).

And they're not really gouging with microtransactions in any way that I can see. In fact, it seems somewhat odd to even call these microtransactions since they aren't really transactions to Blizzard for items in the traditional sense. Not only do you never have to buy anything from the auction house whatsoever, the items in it aren't unique in any way. They're just in-game items being sold by other players with a small transaction fee taken out by Blizzard. It's the same thing as buying items on ebay, except you can't be scammed and Blizzard takes a small cut for allowing you the opportunity to make real money inside its game (in the same way that ebay takes a cut when you sell something on it). None of this is new or bizarre or unethical so far as I can see - it's just an incredibly safer system replacing a risky widespread practice and shifting the transaction fee from a completely unrelated company (ebay, etc.) to Blizzard, the maker of the game.

Requiring an always-on connection is just a means of securing the system and avoiding having to program two separate feature sets to deal with an offline/online dichotomy. It also avoids figuring out how to deal with allowing players to take offline characters and switch them to online (something a lot of people would inevitably want to do). Regarding whether this additional set of features is reasonable for them to provide, that's a question of how large the market for prospective customers without a stable internet connection truly is. I don't think they just made this decision blindly, I assume they looked and realized that putting in money and development time to deal with an offline mode simply isn't worthwhile.