Did Firefly rip off Outlaw Star?

[Ratty]

This is apparently an old question but, having never seen more than one or two random episodes of Firefly (*gasp!* I know) I was not aware of it. Until I saw this very good review/overview of Outlaw Star just now which brought it up.

He starts comparing the two at about the 6 minute mark.

Spoiler: Part 2

(Or watch it in one video on the original website. http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/bt/the-sage/anime-abandon/42605-outlaw-star )

They certainly do sound very similar, and that presentation of the girl just looks blatantly taken. So, thoughts?

PS- Outlaw Star is one of my favorite anime of all time and except for the bit about the Caster Gun being the coolest weapon in anime I agree with everything he says. And it's a close call about the Caster.

 

[twistedmic]

They certainly do sound very similar, and that presentation of the girl just looks blatantly taken. So, thoughts?

I'd say no, to all counts. Though Melfina and Summer do have some similarities (mostly their first appearance and parts of their backstory/origin) they differ in several significant ways (personality, family, intended use/reason for creation, method of creation etc.).
Saying that 'Firefly' ripped off 'Outlaw Star' because of the cast, genre and general tone would be like saying 'The Last Samurai' ripped of 'Seven Samurai' because they both took place in Japan, their were serious, somber characters and a fight in the rain. Or like saying that 'Rush Hour' ripped off 'Lethal Weapon' because they both took place in L.A., their was a black cop and they were both comedies.

 

[Lilani]

They're both Space Westerns who utilize a few of the same tropes (which are common in many space westerns--mysterious, naive, helpless damsel gets dropped into a situation which might be too rough-and-tumble for her if not for the wacky space outlaws she gets saddled with), but I wouldn't say Firefly "ripped off" Outlaw Star. Perhaps at most they took some inspiration from it, but Firefly is still a very western show in its structure and plot. If they did borrow any elements, they didn't borrow enough to make it anything like an anime in any way.

It rather bothers me that any time anybody sees a couple of things which are remotely similar they immediately cry "rip off!" without even understanding how these things work. Yes, there are many shows which are in the same genre. Yes, sometimes artists will borrow elements from other artists as inspiration, or to fondly reference them (like the way Rugrats constantly referenced Doctor Who, even going so far as to make one of Tommy's main tools a screwdriver which could unlock almost anything he wanted, reminiscent of the Doctor's sonic screwdriver). Hell Back to the Future 3 is full of references to westerns, specific ones and the genre in general. That doesn't mean it ripped off all those westerns, they were just referencing them and setting the scene by using specific elements as visual and thematic shorthand which people are familiar with to make sure they feel like they're watching "a western."

Pretty much every visual art involves a lot of copying and being inspired by other artists in the same field, or different fields. If you spend any amount of time in those communities you learn this pretty quickly, and it's all very healthy and symbiotic. Hell the impressionists were copying one another and painting each other paint, long before any upstart focus group coordinators coined the term "synergy."

 

[dyre]

Is there any reason in particular you think Firefly ripped off Outlaw Star? I mean, apparently the only point of similarity is that they introduce a character in similar ways, but having Googled "Melfina" (I've only seen Firefly) the character seems completely different from Summer. "The two shows share the same genre" doesn't count as ripping off. If that's literally the only evidence for the assertion, I can't say it's very convincing.

Are there any important issues, perhaps regarding plot, characters, or themes, that you feel were ripped off?

 

[Lost In The Void]

Meh if anything I'd argue it stole a ton of its material from Cowboy BeBop, but at the end of the day, they're all good shows [or at least I'd assume Outlaw Star is, if its apparently worth ripping off]

 

[Eamar]

Though Melfina and Summer

the character seems completely different from Summer.

Summer is the name of the actress, the character's name is River. Sorry, I really tried to let it slide

OT: Pretty much what everyone else has said. Drawing from the same genre tropes does not a rip-off make.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Apart from both being Space Westerns?

Not at all.

I've been watching Outlaw Star since forever, and not once did I think, 'Hmm, you know what? I think Joss Whedon ripped of these guys.'

The same way I don't they ripped off Cowboy Bebop.

It's a genre, with it's own tropes, there's bound to be similarities.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Eh, Firefly is very similar to lots of shows. Blake's 7, for example, which is about a bunch of criminals/revolutionaries on a spaceship being hunted by an oppressive Federation. Blake's 7 being very similar to Star Trek, except the Federation is the bad guys. Star Trek being very similar to The Forbidden Planet, toned down because people thought US citizens were too thick. The Forbidden Planet being very similar to the Tempest.

Now, nothing wrong with shows being inspired by others. OTOH, Firefly is grating because of insufferable Josh Whedon fan convinced that nobody has ever done a western in space before.

 

[HardkorSB]

Everything written by Whedon that I'm familiar with has the same elements in it.
The most prominent one is a girl who ALWAYS knows martial arts and ALWAYS kicks ass. Buffy, Ripley (Alien Resurrection), River, Black Widow - they are essentially the same character. I think that Whedon is simply putting his sexual fantasies into his work.
The fact that there is ALWAYS a foot fetish scene in there somewhere proves that theory.

Everything he writes also involves a group of people with contrasting personalities working together (each one of them has 1 defining character trait).

If you look at the space pirates from Alien Resurrection, they feel like the beta version of the crew from Firefly.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Everything written by Whedon that I'm familiar with has the same elements in it.
The most prominent one is a girl who ALWAYS knows martial arts and ALWAYS kicks ass. Buffy, Ripley (Alien Resurrection), River, Black Widow - they are essentially the same character. I think that Whedon is simply putting his sexual fantasies into his work.

Eh, if he'd always put a bloke in his stuff that went round hitting people, nobody would see this as unusual.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Someone using a trope =/= ripping off another similar story/movie/show/whatever. I wish folks would start realizing this...

 

[Timotei]

They're both space adventures where caring for the ship and dealing with one-off situations that arise are the premise for each episode. Sound familiar?

This premise has been around for as long as there has been sailing. The Greeks had many tales of men sailing the seas, encountering small situations and then dealing with them while caring for their ship so they could continue on their adventure. The idea of Outlaw Star and Firefly is as old as seafaring adventure stories themselves. The Melfina and Summer characters aren't that original as well. I'm sure a glance at older writings will most definitely reveal the enigmatic female character like them to be quite common.

In short: Nothing original under the sun and all that jazz.

 

[Something Amyss]

They certainly do sound very similar, and that presentation of the girl just looks blatantly taken. So, thoughts?

Actually, if you leave out the River Tam comparison, most of the similarities seem superficial. A lot of these themes are in some way reflected in any of the Space Western cartoons from the 80s. Sage already mentions the similarities to Star Wars, which could be anything from intentional to simply a love of the same source material to complete coincidence.

This is the "Jet" phenomena all over again. When Jet's "Are You Gonna Be My Girl" came out, White Stripes fans were pissed that Jet ripped off "Screwdriver," completely ignoring how similar their brilliant and original Stripes' song sounded to Iggy Pop's "Lust For Life." It's said that one should not cast stones from glass houses, but it seems like it's almost a necessity if you're to be an entertainment geek.

The fact is, that riff that everyone "ripped off" just wasn't all that unique or creative in the first place. And neither is Outlaw Star and neither is Firefly. I mean, I enjoyed them both, but that's because they took common elements and wove them into a story I enjoyed, not because of the novelty of the concept.

Is there any reason in particular you think Firefly ripped off Outlaw Star?

When you get a show on TGWTG, people treat you like you know what you're talking about. Nash should be proof enough that's not true, but hey. It's the interwebs.

Summer is the name of the actress, the character's name is River.

Wait, actors? I thought Firefly was a reality TV show.

Are you telling me River Glau[footnote]Yes, I did that on purpose...[/footnote] is not a real person?

The most prominent one is a girl who ALWAYS knows martial arts and ALWAYS kicks ass. Buffy, Ripley (Alien Resurrection), River, Black Widow - they are essentially the same character. I think that Whedon is simply putting his sexual fantasies into his work.

The fact that half of those[footnote]Well, rounded up[/quote] were characters not created by Joss aside, you're also casting a very broad concept of "same" into the mix. The argument that all the shows listed in this thread rip off Star Trek actually relies on a less vague and broad argument.

Eh, if he'd always put a bloke in his stuff that went round hitting people, nobody would see this as unusual.

Yes, but it's a girl, so it's different. I hear he wanted to do a Wonder Woman movie, and if there was an ass-kicking woman in that movie, it would just prove how generic and samey Wheedon characters are. Even worse if she wore something skintight or revealing.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Yes, but it's a girl, so it's different. I hear he wanted to do a Wonder Woman movie, and if there was an ass-kicking woman in that movie, it would just prove how generic and samey Wheedon characters are. Even worse if she wore something skintight or revealing.

Oh that's an idea...do a WW movie, but during a time where nothing heroic is going on, and she's just dealing with whatever secret identity she's got going on.

 

[Mid Boss]

Everything is a rip off of something else at this point. I love when people say "That character is ripping off Batman!" and I reply "Don't you mean the Scarlet Pimpernel?" The Batman of 1903.

 

[CrazyGirl17]

Meh, I prefer to see it as a happy coincidence. But then, I like both, so what do I know?

 

[Hawk of Battle]

(like the way Rugrats constantly referenced Doctor Who, even going so far as to make one of Tommy's main tools a screwdriver which could unlock almost anything he wanted, reminiscent of the Doctor's sonic screwdriver).

Huh, why has it taken me almost my entire life to see that connection? Weird.

Everything written by Whedon that I'm familiar with has the same elements in it.
The most prominent one is a girl who ALWAYS knows martial arts and ALWAYS kicks ass. Buffy, Ripley (Alien Resurrection), River, Black Widow - they are essentially the same character. I think that Whedon is simply putting his sexual fantasies into his work.
The fact that there is ALWAYS a foot fetish scene in there somewhere proves that theory.

Everything he writes also involves a group of people with contrasting personalities working together (each one of them has 1 defining character trait).

If you look at the space pirates from Alien Resurrection, they feel like the beta version of the crew from Firefly.

Whedon is a self-described feminist. This is not necesarily a bad thing. And like someone else said, if all of his work had men in the same roles, would you think it odd, or that he's simply using it as an excuse to show his sexual fantasies? Probably not.

As for the foot thing, in Rivers case it's actually justified somewhat; Summer Glau hates wearing shoes, due to a condition brought about by years of ballet. She specifically requested being allowed to work barefoot because normal shows cause her pain. Every time she isn't barefoot she's in large boots because that's all she finds comfortable. Yes I know far too much about this than I probably should.

 

[Ratty]

Yes, sometimes artists will borrow elements from other artists as inspiration, or to fondly reference them (like the way Rugrats constantly referenced Doctor Who, even going so far as to make one of Tommy's main tools a screwdriver which could unlock almost anything he wanted, reminiscent of the Doctor's sonic screwdriver). Hell Back to the Future 3 is full of references to westerns, specific ones and the genre in general. That doesn't mean it ripped off all those westerns, they were just referencing them and setting the scene by using specific elements as visual and thematic shorthand which people are familiar with to make sure they feel like they're watching "a western."

Pretty much every visual art involves a lot of copying and being inspired by other artists in the same field, or different fields. If you spend any amount of time in those communities you learn this pretty quickly, and it's all very healthy and symbiotic. Hell the impressionists were copying one another and painting each other paint, long before any upstart focus group coordinators coined the term "synergy."

Someone using a trope =/= ripping off another similar story/movie/show/whatever. I wish folks would start realizing this...

Yeah, it was just the fact that apparently Whedon has stated more than once that the plot similarities between the two are purely a coincidence that got me thinking. I mean that's a specific denial which says that there was no influence, which if something was borrowing influences would, at least to my mind, change it from a homage or simple inspiration to a rip-off.

Not saying that I DO think Firefly ripped Outlaw Star off, since as I said I haven't watched the former show so I couldn't really begin to form a comparison. Looks like the consensus is that it doesn't though. Alrighty, was just curious what others (who have actually seen both) thought. Cool. Though worst case scenerio if it had taken from Outlaw Star, I wouldn't necessarily have seen copying one of my all time favorite series as a bad thing.

 

[Grimh]

I haven't seen Outlaw Star but I don't think that, what I understand are superficial similarities at most, constitutes a rip-off.

It could be however when it comes to that finding River scene that unless Whedon had absolute control over how that scene would look like, as for example the case and how she would lie in it, some people could have influenced it to be like that as an homage to Outlaw Star seeing how the shows seem share some aspects.
Or he straight up lifted it, or it's a coincidence, or he did it as an homage himself but under allegations of just ripping it off he just said it was a coincidence. Who knows?

Joss Whedon knows. Or does he?

 

[Eamar]

Yeah, it was just the fact that apparently Whedon has stated more than once that the plot similarities between the two are purely a coincidence that got me thinking. I mean that's a specific denial which says that there was no influence, which if something was borrowing influences would, at least to my mind, change it from a homage or simple inspiration to a rip-off.

You misunderstand - it's perfectly possible for both Firefly and Star Outlaw to have drawn from the same pool of references (the entire space western genre, among other things) and end up with a similar result without being specifically aware of each other. Star Outlaw didn't invent the tropes any more than Firefly did.