Did Firefly rip off Outlaw Star?

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Ratty

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Eamar said:
Ratty said:
Yeah, it was just the fact that apparently Whedon has stated more than once that the plot similarities between the two are purely a coincidence that got me thinking. I mean that's a specific denial which says that there was no influence, which if something was borrowing influences would, at least to my mind, change it from a homage or simple inspiration to a rip-off.
You misunderstand - it's perfectly possible for both Firefly and Star Outlaw to have drawn from the same pool of references (the entire space western genre, among other things) and end up with a similar result without being specifically aware of each other. Star Outlaw didn't invent the tropes any more than Firefly did.
Yeah it wasn't the broad trope strokes that caught my attention (space western, show named after ship, rag tag group led by a rebel etc. could all easily be coincidences since they're common to the genre) but one of the plot points that is similar. Specifically (as Sage puts it in the video) finding "A woman in a suitcase who was the subject of experimentation for the nefarious purposes of a secret cabal". Now that taken together with the other similarities sounds suspicious. At least to someone like me who hasn't seen Firefly. Then again as you say maybe they're both simply taking that plotline from (an) earlier source(s). Or both came up with it independently.
 

ChristopherT

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I've watched both Outlaw Star and Firefly, enjoyed them both. And the only thing they really have in common of any importance is Melfina and River both being found in square shaped cryo chambers where both are in the fetal position and being naked, it's large, it's a big thing, for that one instant when it happens, then it's over with, and I can't think of anything reasonably that similar happening again in both series.

Looking at just Melfina and River -
Melfina goes into a liquid filled tube to help navigate and interact with the ship.
Melfina is of sound mind.
Melfina is not a fighter, and is worthless in any fight - unless it's her controlling the space ship.
Melfina has no family.
Melfina does not try to harm any member of the crew of the ship, or anyone else.
Melfina is a part of the crew, and is an irreplaceable member of the crew.
Melfina has a warm heart and develops relationships with the rest of the crew.
To me, none of that sounds like River, River is bonkers, she keeps her distance from most of the crew, threatens and attacks Jayne, her brother is her only real connection, she is for the majority of the time useless to the crew and ship.

As for the rest of the series?
The Outlaw Star crew fights pirates, goes on a space race, has catgirls (also known as some sort of alien species), have guns that seem to shoot magic, ships that have combat arms (arms that come out of the ship wielding guns and knives), there's little droids that zip around throughout the ship on zip lines, samurai, The crew starts out small and slowly builds over the course of the series.

The only characters I can think of that are even remotely the same are Gene and Mal, but that's because they're both fairly plain - Captain of the ship, who values his crew, is one of the best on the ship in a gun fight, and who dreamed of one day owning their own ship. Gene sits at the controls of his ship, Mal usually doesn't - Mal was a soldier in the war for independence, Gene's not a soldier, never been in a war.

Unless I'm forgetting a few things (haven't seen Outlaw Star in a number of years) the basics where - Firefly crew is on a beat up ship, that at times barely runs, so they need to take odd jobs just to stay a float, there end goal just to keep a float (which sounds more like Cowboy Bebop, but even then, give it a rest.), and the Outlaw Star is this super ship, where the crew is fighting pirates and trying to find a mythical land.
 

DaWaffledude

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It's possible for two people to have the same idea independent of each other. Stranger things have happened.
 

otakon17

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Rip off? Hell no. That term gets bandied around too damn often and used wrongly when works have similar concepts and themes. Something can still be it's own thing while still drawing inspiration from other work.
 

Canadamus Prime

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"Rip off" is one of those terms I wish people would stop using because EVERYONE uses it incorrectly. Everyone seems to be under the mistaken impression that because something is somewhat remotely vaguely similar to something else, one of them must have "ripped off" the other. WRONG! You want to see a real rip off? Look up Ki Warriors on the Google App store. THAT'S a rip off.
 

Snotnarok

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I've heard this, and no, not even loosely inspired.

This is something I was going to dive into but it seems Canadamus_PRime already has, there's a difference between rip-off,similar, inspired.

Darksiders was inspired by several games, Dantes Inferno ripped off God of War. What's the difference? Darksiders has it's own visual theme, and the game in it's entirety doesn't feel like 1 specific game, it feels similar to a few depending on what part of the game you are in but it's never fully pulling from 1 game.
Dantes Inferno takes the chain weapon, the way money/orbs/health, chests, QTEs work- and doesn't change a thing, it works it together and no matter how you spin it, it feels like God of War and sure, you could say it was heavily inspired but I always felt like they were trying to bring the exclusive to other platforms but just didn't do anything new to make it it's own.
That's the difference and I think while it's not the same medium, you can still see where I'm coming from.

In terms of Outlaw Star vs Firefly? What they found a girl in a 'box' with special abilities that aren't similar in any regard? Both crews are are down on their luck? One has aliens, magic, special guns, impossible skills, ships that defy logic, the other doesn't....I just don't see anything similar at all....This is coming from someone who loves Firefly and figures Outlaw Star to be my favorite anime so far.
 

Little Woodsman

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ChristopherT said:
Melfina does not try to harm any member of the crew of the ship, or anyone else.
You mean *other* than the time when she stomped a sentient being to death? (The cactus/mind control alien.)
I mean it was a reasonable solution to the situation, but she did still deliberately kill someone by repeatedly stomping on him/it with a high-heeled shoe. {grin}
 

sc1arr1

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In no way is Firefly a ripoff of Outlaw Star. They both just happen to be fantastic series set in the same genre.
 

Murais

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The idea of the Space Western is as old as Star Wars and Star Trek. So, I would say not likely. It is more likely that the creators of both series took the Western undercurrents in mainstream Sci-Fi and exaggerated them to critique and bring up the fact that 'HEY. THIS IS THE EXACT SAME METAPHOR THAT YOU'RE WATCHING IN THOSE OTHER SHOWS. PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT YOU WATCH."
 

Verlander

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Outlaw Star... man I loved that show. The first half of the show was awesome, but it kinda slipped in the second half - the art team changed, and I think they tried to wrap up the plot too quickly.
 

Fox12

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Not at all. They're both in the same sub-genre, the space western, but otherwise the have virtually nothing in common. Let's not forget who started this whole thing:


Oh, wait, space westerns are actually older than that:


Wheedon basically admitted that he wanted to make Han Solo: the show. He may not have done much that was new, but the tropes he used are pretty typical in the genre.
 

Little Woodsman

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So I came late to the party for Firefly, but as soon as I saw the first episode I laughed out loud and said "So this is what we get when Joss Whedon marathons his way through Outlaw Star!"
Whedon takes a lot of inspiration from anime (Yohko Mano was hunting devils long before Buffy Summers slew her first vampire) and loves to put visual references to anime that he loves in to his work (visual from Avengers virtually identical to visual from original Bubblegum Crisis).
All that being said, there's a *world* of difference between being inspired by something and/or giving the audience a wink/nudge about something and being a "rip-off".


Just don't get me started about the Tim Hunter/Harry Potter question....
 

Saltyk

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Well, I think the whole way River (I'm making an assumption here as I never saw the series, and no, I have no interest is seeing it, now) is found could be a nod to Outlaw Star by someone who had seen it. The basic plot is pretty similar, but I don't think it was a direct rip. One could almost make the same comparison with Star Wars. It would just about fit.

So, I'm gonna say not a rip off. But one could certainly see the similarities.
 

balladbird

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Little Woodsman said:
ChristopherT said:
Melfina does not try to harm any member of the crew of the ship, or anyone else.
You mean *other* than the time when she stomped a sentient being to death? (The cactus/mind control alien.)
I mean it was a reasonable solution to the situation, but she did still deliberately kill someone by repeatedly stomping on him/it with a high-heeled shoe. {grin}
I'd forgotten about that, but you have a point... how tragic that a gag-episode would bring out the darkest part of the female lead. XD


Regarding the topic, there's no evidence for or against, but as the majority have said, the staging of River's introduction aside, the two characters share little in common.
 

ChristopherT

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Little Woodsman said:
ChristopherT said:
Melfina does not try to harm any member of the crew of the ship, or anyone else.
You mean *other* than the time when she stomped a sentient being to death? (The cactus/mind control alien.)
I mean it was a reasonable solution to the situation, but she did still deliberately kill someone by repeatedly stomping on him/it with a high-heeled shoe. {grin}
Completely forgot about that, thank you for the correction, as I said, haven't seen Outlaw Star in years, close enough to a decade or longer. I really need to watch it again at some point.
 

Little Woodsman

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balladbird said:
Little Woodsman said:
ChristopherT said:
Melfina does not try to harm any member of the crew of the ship, or anyone else.
You mean *other* than the time when she stomped a sentient being to death? (The cactus/mind control alien.)
I mean it was a reasonable solution to the situation, but she did still deliberately kill someone by repeatedly stomping on him/it with a high-heeled shoe. {grin}
I'd forgotten about that, but you have a point... how tragic that a gag-episode would bring out the darkest part of the female lead. XD


Regarding the topic, there's no evidence for or against, but as the majority have said, the staging of River's introduction aside, the two characters share little in common.
Well, to be fair she didn't have a lot of other options (as others have pointed out she's not a fighter and carries no weapons) and if she hadn't done what she did *bad* things would have happened. I just always find it amusing that people forget what happened in that episode. :D
 

Little Woodsman

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ChristopherT said:
Little Woodsman said:
ChristopherT said:
Melfina does not try to harm any member of the crew of the ship, or anyone else.
You mean *other* than the time when she stomped a sentient being to death? (The cactus/mind control alien.)
I mean it was a reasonable solution to the situation, but she did still deliberately kill someone by repeatedly stomping on him/it with a high-heeled shoe. {grin}
Completely forgot about that, thank you for the correction, as I said, haven't seen Outlaw Star in years, close enough to a decade or longer. I really need to watch it again at some point.
Yes! Must definitely re-watch, ASAP!
I re-watched it about a year and a half ago, and I already want to watch it again (along with about 20 other great old series.... if only there were more time...)
 

Michael Law

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Whedon has actually said that Cowboy Bebop was one of his biggest influences on Firefly.
But all pop culture feeds onto itself. Of course it was influenced by things that came earlier haha