Did Firefly rip off Outlaw Star?

[Ratty]

Is there any reason in particular you think Firefly ripped off Outlaw Star?

When you get a show on TGWTG, people treat you like you know what you're talking about. Nash should be proof enough that's not true, but hey. It's the interwebs.

I haven't watched TGWTG regularly in like 4 or 5 years (when the Nostalgia Critic started going stale) but I got linked to another Anime Abandon and then decided to browse through them a bit. The part that caught my attention was when the video said "A woman in a suitcase who was the subject of experimentation for the nefarious purposes of a secret cabal", not so much the more generic elements the two shows share. As for Nash, he gets suckered into false news sometimes but I like WTFIWWY alright, it's the only show I've watched much of in the last 2 years or so since my girlfriend is a big fan of it.

It's possible for two people to have the same idea independent of each other. Stranger things have happened.

Rip off? Hell no. That term gets bandied around too damn often and used wrongly when works have similar concepts and themes. Something can still be it's own thing while still drawing inspiration from other work.

"Rip off" is one of those terms I wish people would stop using because EVERYONE uses it incorrectly. Everyone seems to be under the mistaken impression that because something is somewhat remotely vaguely similar to something else, one of them must have "ripped off" the other. WRONG! You want to see a real rip off? Look up Ki Warriors on the Google App store. THAT'S a rip off.

Not at all. They're both in the same sub-genre, the space western, but otherwise the have virtually nothing in common. Let's not forget who started this whole thing:
STAR WARS
Oh, wait, space westerns are actually older than that:
JOHN CARTER OF MARS
Wheedon basically admitted that he wanted to make Han Solo: the show. He may not have done much that was new, but the tropes he used are pretty typical in the genre.

I agree. Like I mentioned earlier in this post and in another post the only part that gave me pause was the specific plot similarity of "A woman in a suitcase who was the subject of experimentation for the nefarious purposes of a secret cabal". Because as many of you have said they are in the same "Space Western" sub-genre of Space Opera. Which goes back at least a century.[footnote]Unless you want to argue that Burroughs' John Carter stories are not space westerns. And while there is a case to be made that as the first "Sword & Planet" stories they are part of their own unique sub-genre, the fact that John Carter himself is an ex-confederate soldier who finds his way to Mars after being chased by Indians well...[/footnote] Again I'm not jumping to the conclusion that it was ripped off. It just seemed suspicious, at least to someone who's never seen Firefly. So I wanted other, more informed opinions.

 

[faefrost]

I think the only thing that could even be construed as mildly similar between the two shows, beyond the over arching Space Western themes (Which well predate both of them. Heck the original Star Trek was pitched to Paramount as a Space Western. A Wagon Train to the Stars.), is the introduction of the two female characters. IE the "Girl Smuggled in the Suitcase" trope. Which honestly goes back much further than either of these shows and into the realms of myth and history. Just as an example, Cleopatra being smuggled in a carpet. I think James Bond played with this same idea a few times over the years. It's appearances are far from uncommon.

Beyond that there is almost nothing else remotely connecting or similar to the two shows. A better argument could be made comparing Firefly with Cowboy Bebop in terms of setting and tone. An even better example is Firefly could easily be set in the Alien universe. But honestly we know that, because we saw the "proto Firefly" characters in the crew of the Betty in Alien Resurrection. (And no it's not considered stealing or copying when a writer takes an idea he began in one work and expands on it to flesh it out in another. It's part of the normal creative process.)

 

[TheMigrantSoldier]

When will the "tropes=rip-off" idea die down? I once saw a thread accusing Titanfall of ripping off Attack on Titan, despite their similarities being horribly superficial.

 

[Something Amyss]

The part that caught my attention was when the video said "A woman in a suitcase who was the subject of experimentation for the nefarious purposes of a secret cabal", not so much the more generic elements the two shows share

The problem is, that's ONE element that the shows particularly have in common, and the only unique element is the suitcase. Unless you count women in refrigerators, but....

The point being it's not a huge element, one mostly of initial presentation, and it makes for a cool reveal. That specific element may have even been taken, but that's not the case Sage is making and you didn't really stop there.

As for Nash, he gets suckered into false news sometimes but I like WTFIWWY alright, it's the only show I've watched much of in the last 2 years or so since my girlfriend is a big fan of it.

Nash is a moron ranting at morons. He is a complete and utter idiot, as is his disgusting ass of a co-host, and they both will go off berating people when they don't know what they're talking about. They'll then berate people who know what they're talking about. It has nothing to do with them getting suckered in from time to time by fake stories, though there have been instances where they ranted despite the chat telling them it was fake because what's the point of being a budget internet version of Fox News if you can't rant at fake stories once in a while?

If you're going to be an idiot, it's best not to be a belligerent idiot. Nash and Tara are both belligerent idiots. And Tara's just a terrible person.

But it's 10% what you say, 90% how you say it. So getting outraged at stupid people is more important than whether or not they're actually smarter. Or know what they're talking about. Or, yes, the story's real.

 

[Something Amyss]

When will the "tropes=rip-off" idea die down? I once saw a thread accusing Titanfall of ripping off Attack on Titan, despite their similarities being horribly superficial.

Never. It was a thing before they called them "tropes," and it'll be a thing long after the use of the word "tropes" has wandered into obscurity.

 

[Ratty]

The part that caught my attention was when the video said "A woman in a suitcase who was the subject of experimentation for the nefarious purposes of a secret cabal", not so much the more generic elements the two shows share

The problem is, that's ONE element that the shows particularly have in common, and the only unique element is the suitcase. Unless you count women in refrigerators, but....

The point being it's not a huge element, one mostly of initial presentation, and it makes for a cool reveal. That specific element may have even been taken, but that's not the case Sage is making and you didn't really stop there.

I didn't stop there? What do you mean? I started this thread asking for opinions about an accusation, not making said accusation. Just look at the top of the page, the thread title is "Did Firefly rip off Outlaw Star?" not "Oh my God! Firefly totally ripped off Outlaw Star!" also as I noted the element couldn't have been taken if Whedon was telling the truth when he said that any similarities were just a coincidence. 1 is still more than 0. But again, it's possible they just came up with the same idea independently, or saw it on an earlier source. I haven't seen Firefly and don't plan to anytime soon. So I can't really make a judgement on that.

As for Nash, he gets suckered into false news sometimes but I like WTFIWWY alright, it's the only show I've watched much of in the last 2 years or so since my girlfriend is a big fan of it.

Nash is a moron ranting at morons.

So people who enjoy what is essentially just a podcast about weird news are morons? Yeah ok.

He is a complete and utter idiot, as is his disgusting ass of a co-host, and they both will go off berating people when they don't know what they're talking about. They'll then berate people who know what they're talking about. It has nothing to do with them getting suckered in from time to time by fake stories, though there have been instances where they ranted despite the chat telling them it was fake because what's the point of being a budget internet version of Fox News if you can't rant at fake stories once in a while?

If you're going to be an idiot, it's best not to be a belligerent idiot. Nash and Tara are both belligerent idiots. And Tara's just a terrible person.

But it's 10% what you say, 90% how you say it. So getting outraged at stupid people is more important than whether or not they're actually smarter. Or know what they're talking about. Or, yes, the story's real.

I don't know about any of this apparent drama, and I don't really care. But you're being pretty belligerent and judgmental yourself here.

 

[Eamar]

"A woman in a suitcase who was the subject of experimentation for the nefarious purposes of a secret cabal".

First off, given that the two characters and storylines are totally different from that point on, we're talking about a very small thing here. Too small to constitute any more than a homage (if it was copied, which I don't think it was), certainly not a rip-off.

Secondly, while these scenes stick in the mind and are dramatic, they're not all that unique when you break them down. Characters who have been tortured/driven mad/somehow fundamentally altered by the Big Bad are a staple in thrillers and sci fi. Hell, carrying out unethical experiments on humans is practically a requirement for evil sci fi organisations (bonus points for women and/or kids, since they tend to be perceived as somehow more innocent).

That just leaves the suitcase/box thing which, again, is nothing new really. It's a twist on the "dead body stuffed into a suitcase" trope that comes up all the time in crime dramas (and occasionally in real life, of course). The Firefly scene certainly wouldn't have the impact it does if the audience wasn't aware of the trope, as the whole sequence gains its effectiveness from toying with our expectations.

So again, it may seem initially that there are some weirdly specific similarities, but actually they're all built from a common "language" of tropes drawn not only from the space western subgenre, but from storytelling in general.

 

[Ratty]

"A woman in a suitcase who was the subject of experimentation for the nefarious purposes of a secret cabal".

First off, given that the two characters and storylines are totally different from that point on, we're talking about a very small thing here. Too small to constitute any more than a homage (if it was copied, which I don't think it was), certainly not a rip-off.

Secondly, while these scenes stick in the mind and are dramatic, they're not all that unique when you break them down. Characters who have been tortured/driven mad/somehow fundamentally altered by the Big Bad are a staple in thrillers and sci fi. Hell, carrying out unethical experiments on humans is practically a requirement for evil sci fi organisations (bonus points for women and/or kids, since they tend to be perceived as somehow more innocent).

That just leaves the suitcase/box thing which, again, is nothing new really. It's a twist on the "dead body stuffed into a suitcase" trope that comes up all the time in crime dramas (and occasionally in real life, of course). The Firefly scene certainly wouldn't have the impact it does if the audience wasn't aware of the trope, as the whole sequence gains its effectiveness from toying with our expectations.

So again, it may seem initially that there are some weirdly specific similarities, but actually they're all built from a common "language" of tropes drawn not only from the space western subgenre, but from storytelling in general.

I agree. Like I said a few times now, I was just looking for elaboration/opinions from people who have seen both series and can more properly compare to the two. Since as I noted I only had access to a very cursory comparison, and that particular point seemed very specific in the context of that comparison.

 

[chinangel]

I find that Firefly has a lot more in common with Cowboy Bebop than Outlaw star, but that's just me.

 

[Something Amyss]

Yes, but it's a girl, so it's different. I hear he wanted to do a Wonder Woman movie, and if there was an ass-kicking woman in that movie, it would just prove how generic and samey Wheedon characters are. Even worse if she wore something skintight or revealing.

Oh that's an idea...do a WW movie, but during a time where nothing heroic is going on, and she's just dealing with whatever secret identity she's got going on.

I could see that turning into a round of complains about how chick movies are boring.

I started this thread asking for opinions about an accusation, not making said accusation.

Your "evidence" was a video which went into great detail about all the various similarities.

You could have made the case for the women in suitcases yourself.

So people who enjoy what is essentially just a podcast about weird news are morons? Yeah ok.

Wait, he's ranting at the audience? Here I thought he was ranting at the people from the news articles.

I don't know about any of this apparent drama, and I don't really care. But you're being pretty belligerent and judgmental yourself here.

I think you're projecting, here.

 

[Ratty]

Oh hey I remember this topic.

I started this thread asking for opinions about an accusation, not making said accusation.

Your "evidence" was a video which went into great detail about all the various similarities.

You could have made the case for the women in suitcases yourself.

Except that as I just said I wasn't making an accusation but merely asking for opinions from more informed individuals. I don't need "evidence" to ask a question. And even if I had been making an accusation as I said many times in this thread I have not seen Firefly, so I would be woefully unprepared to do so.

 

[Matcha Blizzard]

I have seen both Outlaw Star and Firefly and love both of them. I definitely thought of Melfina in Outlaw Star when I was first introduced to River in box. I also noticed some similarities to Cowboy Bebop as others have brought up. However, even if Firefly was influenced by these, it does not mean it was a direct rip-off. However, just because I have seen this conversation all over the internet for years, I thought I would throw in another precursor sci-fi set in a very similar world to Firefly, Cowboy Bebop, and Outlaw Star that I never see mentioned. Blake's 7, a British sci-fi from the late 70s created by Terry Nation who invented the Daleks of the Doctor Who universe.

In Blake's 7, Blake is a freedom fighter who has taken a stand against the evil Federation, a earth-centered government that bullies the outer colony planets. He was previously a leader in a group of rebels that banded together from various outer rim colonies to resist the earth-central government and was beaten. He now has a collection of rogues, hackers, con-men and other outlaws that ride around with him in a special ship, with a personality, that interacts with the crew and is basically considered a member of the crew *cough* Gilliam. Also some of them are quite willing to back stab each other, abandon each other, or even consider killing each other if the cause or the price is right much like Faye Valentine, Aisha Clan Clan, or Jayne Cobb. They are pursued by a government agent who is intent on apprehending or killing them and stopping Blake from spreading his message which would encourage further insurrection towards the corrupt earth central government (The Operative in Serenity). All that said, there is no analogy to Melfina or River in this show. However, there are a lot of striking similarities.

Do I think that just because it predates each of these other shows, they all ripped off Blake's 7? No, but I believe they were in some way influenced, even if not directly, by the story-telling and the world. Ideas influence other ideas. People love the Matrix, but without Ghost in the Shell, Jon Woo's bullet operas, and Blade Runner there is no Matrix. However, the Matrix is not any of those movies. It was influenced by each of them though. However, the Wachowski brothers freely admit these influences, even pointing out that they tried to recreate some scenes from Ghost in the Shell. Melfina's introduction and River's introduction are a bit too similar, it is almost hard to believe that no one working on the show hadn't seen Outlaw Star given the similar way the character is introduced... but that said the show in its entirety is no way a rip-off of Outlaw Star anymore than Outlaw Star is a rip-off of Blake's 7. In fact aside from Melfina and River, there are probably more similarities between Blake's 7 and Firefly, but still I don't think it's a rip-off. We see similarities in that they all tell similar stories that we like and/or connect with. They all have a semi-optimistic David vs Goliath aspect along with a dark view that the system is always stacked against you and that the future is not a safe or happy place to be all of the time. We haven't solved all of our problems and we must fight for freedom against a massive and oppressive force. They are all great shows in their own right and in their own times... so let's just enjoy them.

 

[Tony2077]

i own both and i don't see how it can be a rip off.

i think there both good shows

 

[Eddie the head]

Yeah, it was just the fact that apparently Whedon has stated more than once that the plot similarities between the two are purely a coincidence that got me thinking. I mean that's a specific denial which says that there was no influence, which if something was borrowing influences would, at least to my mind, change it from a homage or simple inspiration to a rip-off.

Well isn't that kind of thinking convent. If they say yes I'm right, if they say no I'm right.

 

[Ratty]

Yeah, it was just the fact that apparently Whedon has stated more than once that the plot similarities between the two are purely a coincidence that got me thinking. I mean that's a specific denial which says that there was no influence, which if something was borrowing influences would, at least to my mind, change it from a homage or simple inspiration to a rip-off.

Well isn't that kind of thinking convent. If they say yes I'm right, if they say no I'm right.

Huh? How do you mean? If it is pure coincidence then it is. If I remember right (this was a month or two ago) I was responding to someone saying that they didn't think it was a "ripoff" per se but that it might have taken "some inspiration". I was merely saying that if someone were, hypothetically, to take inspiration from a work and then specifically deny that inspiration it would constitute a ripoff. But if the similar scenes are pure coincidence, which the consensus seems to indicate, then it's not a ripoff at all.