Dilemma: To buy or to build?

[Azure Sky]

If a game isnt fun on low settings then its not a good game your just attracted to how it looks. Thats not a good thing thats very bad and makes you a rather shallow person.

Seeing as I started this argument, I'll bite.
Graphics are just as integral to a game as Story, Mechanics or even Music.
There have been many games that delve deeper into each of these then others, and all have been successful.

Here's one, would you enjoy Shadow of the Colossus, one of the most visually rich games of its release year, and probably for several after that, if you were forced to play it on say... 800x600 on low settings?

Spoiler: Snip for size

Try having an emotional epiphany about an 8 bit character.

You mean like this guy? The Nameless One?

Or perhaps you mean Chrono:

Yeah, still get that emotional epiphany. Because the story is that great.

Or do you mean to tell me, that you can't have a good book without pictures in it? Sure, graphics can be used to enhance or even tell parts of the story. But rarely is it actually used to do so, and even more rarely that story is incomprehensible or emotionally dead without that graphical component turned to max.

You too, there are always exceptions to the rule, Shadow, ICO, etc. =3

 

[twasdfzxcv]

-snip-

All the graphic designers working on games would probably want to kill you for that.

It's like saying you can drive cross country in a 1000 dollar clunker or a 1 million dollar sports car. Sure they'll both get your there but which would you enjoy more.

1 million dollar car of course. But, would you rather have
that 1 million dollar car
OR a 20 000 dollar car, with a new apartment at or near a city of your choice, 2 week vacation at a location of your choice, new stereo system AND dinner with 20 of your friends cooked for you by Gordon Ramsay?

And I thought we're just talking about gaming experience. If you're going to say the money saved during the 10 years you didn't have to upgrade is more important then fine, everyone has their different priority about money. And you'd only saved less than 1k over these 10 years, which is 2 games a year. If you think that 1k is going to get you that nice apartment and that vacation of yours, keep dreaming then. Second if the only thing that matter about game is the game play, why don't you just stick with the original doom. If you want the story just make some cardboard cut out and read the plot on line. You don't even have to upgrade from old 486, 'cause who needs those fancy gadget to run a fps.

 

[Azure Sky]

If you're going to say the money saved during the 10 years you didn't have to upgrade is more important then fine, everyone has their different priority about money.

This is the way I see it.

Kind of like a car really. >=3

 

[twasdfzxcv]

Try having an emotional epiphany about an 8 bit character.

You mean like this guy? The Nameless One?

Or perhaps you mean Chrono:

Yeah, still get that emotional epiphany. Because the story is that great.

Or do you mean to tell me, that you can't have a good book without pictures in it? Sure, graphics can be used to enhance or even tell parts of the story. But rarely is it actually used to do so, and even more rarely that story is incomprehensible or emotionally dead without that graphical component turned to max.

Yeah but still, no. That one scene in MW where you craw toward your death after the nuke is more emotional than the whole story of either of the game above. The first time you walk down the field toward the wandering colossal towering over you invokes more emotional epiphany and done more in minutes.

You can have a good book without pictures, because that's the natural of the media. Saying graphics doesn't matter in games is the same as ignoring all the advances the game industry has done over the past decades. It's simply ignorant.

 

[Zacharine]

And I thought we're just talking about gaming experience.

And I though we were discussing gaming experience in the real world, where people have monetary constraints and alternative needs and wants, some if not most of which are superior to gaming.

But come to think of it, even if I just now won 100 000? from a lottery, I wouldn't be upgrading my 6-months old <600? computer. Because it does what I need it to do, I'm happy with it and I am reasonably sure It'll keep me going for at least 4 to 5 years to come.

If you think that 1k is going to get you that nice apartment and that vacation of yours, keep dreaming then.

Since we were going for outlandish examples, I thought I'd step up. Because tell me honestly, how many people do you know who
a) own a car or a motorcycle
b) own a car or a motorcycle that costs 1 million or more.

Then compare those two numbers. I'm saying it's roughly the same situation here: sure, such people exist (mostly those with vastly more money than us Average Joe And Jane), but most of us just drive the average performer that costs 50k or less.

If you want the story just make some cardboard cut out and read the plot on line. You don't even have to upgrade from old 486, 'cause who needs those fancy gadget to run a fps.

seriously, you people...

Is this 'cardboard cut-out'? Tell me, that even after having not played the game for the past few hours, this cutscene doesn't effect you on emotional level.


or this:

 

[SyphonX]

They're called video games, get it? Graphics are not the only aspect that matters, but it is certainly welcome when time is spent on them.

This medium, "video" games, is not meant to be the best storytelling medium. While there are great games that surely do this, it will never mean that all games will be become masterpieces. We already have books and film, which have centuries on video games.

You're citing games that are over 10 years old. These were good games, yes, but it's time to move on. Dragon Age: Origins is the spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate. The graphical attention to detail in DA:O was VERY welcome. That is not why I enjoyed the game, however.

 

[Zacharine]

Yeah but still, no. That one scene in MW where you craw toward your death after the nuke is more emotional than the whole story of either of the game above.

And on that we disagree. The story of the Nameless One is a heart-rending tale of a tortured soul searching for an end, any end, and dooming other souls while on the jorney. Even more so, because you often end up dooming your fellow party members more than once, or are in fact responsible for their 'worse than death' situation in the first place. And they still follow you, wanting to help you on your journey, often entirely unknowing that you are their sole reason for misery. During the course of the game, you see the absolute best and the absolute worst the Nameless One can be. And at the end, there is true carthasis. Because you feel you've achieved an ending, and that your choices mattered in the grand scheme of things.

The first time you walk down the field toward the wandering colossal towering over you invokes more emotional epiphany and done more in minutes.

Yes, Shadow Of The Colossus is a rare gem, I do not disagree. However, again, you do not need maxed out graphics, or top of the line computer, or even a particularly good one (for the day) to gain that appreciation.

You can have a good book without pictures, because that's the natural of the media. Saying graphics doesn't matter in games is the same as ignoring all the advances the game industry has done over the past decades. It's simply ignorant.

Likewise it is ignorant to say you can't have a good game or an emotionally effective story without those graphics. I'm not seying we don't need graphics at all. I'm just saying we don't need to play games at maxed out settings for those graphics to be effective enough for their intended purpose. And that you really don't need much in the way of graphics to tell a story or create a good game, if that game is otherwise well done. See Psychonauts, Chrono Trigger/Cross, Braid or as a more recent one, Limbo, as examples. See original Fallout 3 for an example of how good graphics cannot compensate for a poor story beyond a certain point.

 

[twasdfzxcv]

And I thought we're just talking about gaming experience.

And I though we were discussing gaming experience in the real world, where people have monetary constraints and alternative needs and wants, some if not most of which are superior to gaming.

But come to think of it, even if I just now won 100 000? from a lottery, I wouldn't be upgrading my 6-months old <600? computer. Because it does what I need it to do, I'm happy with it and I am reasonably sure It'll keep me going for at least 4 to 5 years to come.

If you think that 1k is going to get you that nice apartment and that vacation of yours, keep dreaming then.

Since we were going for outlandish examples, I thought I'd step up. Because tell me honestly, how many people do you know who
a) own a car or a motorcycle
b) own a car or a motorcycle that costs 1 million or more.

Then compare those two numbers. I'm saying it's roughly the same situation here: sure, such people exist (mostly those with vastly more money than us Average Joe And Jane), but most of us just drive the average performer that costs 50k or less.

If you want the story just make some cardboard cut out and read the plot on line. You don't even have to upgrade from old 486, 'cause who needs those fancy gadget to run a fps.

seriously, you people...

Is this 'cardboard cut-out'? Tell me, that even after having not played the game for the past few hours, this cutscene doesn't effect you on emotional level.


or this:

You've missed several point of my post and I'll kindly point them out again. First of all congratulation, you've saved yourself about one thousand dollars in 10 years. I wonder what you have been investing with this one thousand dollars in the past decade. Perhaps as a gamer like you are, you spend that extra 100 dollars a year on 2 new games every year. Or maybe not, since any gamer would know that graphic is an integral part of "video" games.

Like I said earlier, everyone have different priority with money they have. And obvious that you think the utility you gain from investing in better graphic is not worth the money. I respect that. But don't claim that graphic is not important in games, because that's just not true at all.

And you're little Baulder's gate video? Cardboard cut outs are much better than that, because at least cardboard cut outs moves. That on the other hand is just a segment of audio book.

 

[Zacharine]

Dragon Age: Origins is the spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate. The graphical attention to detail in DA:O was VERY welcome. That is not why I enjoyed the game, however.

And that is paradoxically the reason why I didn't enjoy the game. Too much attention to the graphical detail, while not enough attention paid to the story (it was cliché as heck and made no sense even internally),lack of interesting characters (the quintessential sorceress out for her own gains, soldier of noble blood but no aspirations of greatness, gruff dwarf with a drinking problem, old mentor you drag for that one last adventure... The bi-sexual elf assasin out to betray you was a pleasant surprise.), average sound-track, easily forgettable voice-acting etc. I expected quite a bit more.

You wan't more recent examples? Limbo is a good game. Try Psychonauts. I recently found Dwarf Fortress and I am hooked (although to be fair it isn't exactly recent). Starcraft 2 is nice, no matter what resolution you play it at. S.T.A.L.K.E.R (Shadow of Chernobyl) was also interesting, even at 1024x I was playing it as at the time.

 

[TheYellowCellPhone]

I'd vote for your friends to build them. Spending that much money on a PC is unnecessary, when you can get one just as (if not more) powerful for less.

 

[Zacharine]

You've missed several point of my post and I'll kindly point them out again. First of all congratulation, you've saved yourself about one thousand dollars in 10 years.

Rather, I used that much less on the month I bought my comp. With that money I didn't use, I lived for nearly 3 months and had a small stash for the local spring break.

Or maybe not, since any gamer would know that graphic is an integral part of "video" games.

Great going with the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy there.

But don't claim that graphic is not important in games, because that's just not true at all.

When did I say that? I remember saying

"That being thet you don't need absolute top-of-the-line computers to play modern games. Sure, it's nicer that way, but not required....

I simply renounce graphics as the be-all-end-all facet of gaming. If graphics is all a game has, then it's a fairly poor game in my opinion. If it has good gameplay, interesting story AND good graphics, then I'm likely to go to the store and buy it. Having good graphics is nice, but hardly necessary for a good gaming experience."

I'n not saying anything about graphics not being necessary there, now am I? I'm just saying that having good graphics is not required for a good gaming experience, and that good graphics do not automatically make for a good game.

See: Tetris. Limbo. Braid. Portal. The Witcher. Civilization-series. Sword Of The Stars. Sins Of A Solar Empire.

 

[twasdfzxcv]

Yeah but still, no. That one scene in MW where you craw toward your death after the nuke is more emotional than the whole story of either of the game above.

And on that we disagree. The story of the Nameless One is a heart-rending tale of a tortured soul searching for an end, any end, and dooming other souls while on the jorney. Even more so, because you often end up dooming your fellow party members more than once, or are in fact responsible for their 'worse than death' situation in the first place. And they still follow you, wanting to help you on your journey, often entirely unknowing that you are their sole reason for misery. During the course of the game, you see the absolute best and the absolute worst the Nameless One can be. And at the end, there is true carthasis. Because you feel you've achieved an ending, and that your choices mattered in the grand scheme of things.

The first time you walk down the field toward the wandering colossal towering over you invokes more emotional epiphany and done more in minutes.

Yes, Shadow Of The Colossus is a rare gem, I do not disagree. However, again, you do not need maxed out graphics, or top of the line computer, or even a particularly good one (for the day) to gain that appreciation.

You can have a good book without pictures, because that's the natural of the media. Saying graphics doesn't matter in games is the same as ignoring all the advances the game industry has done over the past decades. It's simply ignorant.

Likewise it is ignorant to say you can't have a good game or an emotionally effective story without those graphics. I'm not seying we don't need graphics at all. I'm just saying we don't need to play games at maxed out settings for those graphics to be effective enough for their intended purpose. And that you really don't need much in the way of graphics to tell a story or create a good game, if that game is otherwise well done. See Psychonauts, Chrono Trigger/Cross, Braid or as a more recent one, Limbo, as examples. See original Fallout 3 for an example of how good graphics cannot compensate for a poor story beyond a certain point.

When talking about Shadow of colossus, one have to remember that when it came out, it pushes the limits of graphic on ps2.

First of all, I'll agree that the story of the nameless one is a outstanding emotional journey. But remember, that's still just the "story", like books or films. What I'm arguing is that, with graphics, you can invoke a emotional response with little story and context needed. In MW, the only think you need to know about the context is that you've been killing countless enemies for hour and BOOM, you got hit by a nuke. That sequence along is worth thousands of words. And the same with all the other examples you've given. You're right they're good stories. And they're the stories that can be told in books and in films just the same because that's just what they are, "stories".

 

[SyphonX]

Dragon Age: Origins is the spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate. The graphical attention to detail in DA:O was VERY welcome. That is not why I enjoyed the game, however.

And that is paradoxically the reason why I didn't enjoy the game. Too much attention to the graphical detail, while not enough attention paid to the story (it was cliché as heck and made no sense even internally),lack of interesting characters (the quintessential sorceress out for her own gains, soldier of noble blood but no aspirations of greatness, gruff dwarf with a drinking problem, old mentor you drag for that one last adventure... The bi-sexual elf assasin out to betray you was a pleasant surprise.), average sound-track, easily forgettable voice-acting etc. I expected quite a bit more.

You wan't more recent examples? Limbo is a good game. Try Psychonauts. I recently found Dwarf Fortress and I am hooked (although to be fair it isn't exactly recent). Starcraft 2 is nice, no matter what resolution you play it at. S.T.A.L.K.E.R (Shadow of Chernobyl) was also interesting, even at 1024x I was playing it as at the time.

Well, your opinion on DA:O I'll respect. I enjoyed the game immensely, even though it was cliche and shallow at times. It was a tribute to the old world of gaming, like Baldur's Gate. I find it hard to believe that you didn't enjoy anything about Dragon Age, there is plenty to enjoy. I too have gripes with the game, like the underwhelming and not-so-challenging final sequence. But I still cherish it as one my personal picks for a favorite of the past decade.

I don't get into the indie platforming genre most of the time, though I'll agree that they are good games, just not my thing. STALKER is also wonderful, very immersive. The graphics do not matter, but they help tremendously. I own all in the series, including it's spiritual brother Metro 2033. All of these games do well with eye candy maxed out. Metro is phenomenally beautiful, and I've heard quite a few positive notes regarding 3D. Quite amazing really, and it does indeed add to the experience. Kind of silly to suggest that the graphics do not matter.

 

[dogenzakaminion]

stay far away from alienware. Not only are they very overpriced (as stated) but theyre also not really that good. The quality just isnt up to par with other pc's. I've seen dells that worked better. So id say find someone who knows what theyre talking about and build your own. Might even be worth the price of paying a pro to choose parts for you as the parts you choose might not fit together that well, producing a bad result.

 

[twasdfzxcv]

Rather, I used that much less on the month I bought my comp. With that money I didn't use, I lived for nearly 3 months and had a small stash for the local spring break.

And you'd have a decent gaming PC and a spare PC you can run as server today if you choose to upgrade your computer.

Great going with the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy there.

No that's just the definition of "video" game.

When did I say that? I remember saying

"That being thet you don't need absolute top-of-the-line computers to play modern games. Sure, it's nicer that way, but not required....

I simply renounce graphics as the be-all-end-all facet of gaming. If graphics is all a game has, then it's a fairly poor game in my opinion. If it has good gameplay, interesting story AND good graphics, then I'm likely to go to the store and buy it. Having good graphics is nice, but hardly necessary for a good gaming experience."

I'n not saying anything about graphics not being necessary there, now am I? I'm just saying that having good graphics is not required for a good gaming experience, and that good graphics do not automatically make for a good game.

See: Tetris. Limbo. Braid. Portal. The Witcher. Civilization-series. Sword Of The Stars. Sins Of A Solar Empire.

If you want good stories, go read some book. If you want good game play, there are a tons of board game out there. If you want good graphic, look outside. But video game is the only thing that binds all three together. Good graphic is just as important as game play and story in video games. Good story alone don't make a video game good, it just makes a good story. Good gameplay makes it a good "game", but it doesn't make it a good "video" game.

 

[twasdfzxcv]

I realize that I have gone awfully off topic here. I apologize to the OP and everyone that visit this thread. And alienware is overpriced.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

A typical Alienware computer is a middle-of-the-line rig overclocked to just shy of the point of meltdown and a $700 sticker with an alien face on it. Building your own is the way to go; this ensures that nothing goes in or on it without your express say-so, and if something goes wrong you'll at least have an idea as to what.

I do the majority of my parts-shopping through Newegg. So far I haven't gotten a single bad bit of hardware from them. I've recently upgraded to an obscenely overclockable GTX460 for around $230 (from my venerable 8800GT, which was still handling modern games with a lot of bells and whistles but starting to show its age) and it's doing an excellent job so far. My next step is to save up to replace my motherboard, quad-core Q6600 and 4GB of RAM.

Just a word of advice: If you want to build a computer, you CANNOT be adverse to reading and following instructions. It will save you a lot of heartache and expense if you read everything you can related to what you're trying to do.

 

[Abedeus]

Alienware? This is what I have to say about it:

LOLOL OVERPRICED SHIT HAHAHA OH MAN THEY HANDCRAFT THOSE PARTS OR WHAT OH MY GOD

Build one yourself.

 

[Baneat]

Me in MW2

:God it's lagging in this match isn't it
:Omg you must all have shit PC's or something
:I said it's lagging, I'm not losing frames
:lol my pc is better than urs
:I'm getting 60 frames at the max settings, it's irrelevant and do you know what lag is?
:hahaha noob my pc still better
:What's in it?
:Alienware.

by then the whole lobby was pissing themselves at him, partially because he bought into alienware, partially because he thought building PC's was ghetto.

It's really easy, cheaply done and will give you the know-how on safely upgrading it in the future. Build!