Discrimination in gaming

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Callate

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A friend of mine once noted that the prettiest girl in your high school would be the "plain Jane friend" who got three lines in many a movie or television drama.

We like to look at pretty people. This is universal. Being physically attractive makes your life easier in many ways. It makes people more likely to help you, more likely to do what you want, more likely to want them to like you, whether or not there's any sort of sexual attraction.

Like many things, we can kindasorta culturally counterbalance this, to a degree. We can say that it's what the inside that counts. We can highlight people's academic achievements, or their business achievements, or the struggles they've overcome.

We can say that physical beauty doesn't matter.

But it's a lie.

Perhaps a lie that it is beneficial to tell, sometimes. (Human society is like that.) But a lie, nevertheless.

Video games are not going change the course of that river, and it's not particularly fair to burden them with that expectation. You're not likely to get a game whose cover heroine is twenty pounds overweight and has a skin problem, any more than you'll see a man who looks like Steve Buscemi on the cover of a romance novel.

This is not to say we couldn't do with more diversity in our games. The character creation flexibility in games like Saints Row, Skyrim, Mass Effect, and many MMORPGs offers one route, but it comes at a cost- by allowing the player to make any character, you remove some of the ability to create a story geared towards a particular character.

I do not doubt- indeed, I hope- that we will see more video game characters who are female, or non-Caucasian. And there will probably be more modest dress for female characters in some games, as well.

But to be blunt, we don't want to embody unattractive characters. We might make characters in Saints Row 4 who look like us, or we might make obese, blue-skinned asexuals who talk like zombies and run around without pants on a lark. But we don't generally want to play unattractive people for much the same reasons we play characters who can lead armies, or do triple somersault flips, or fire sub-machine guns in each hand unerringly with a flagrant disregard for recoil and ammunition. The games that millions of people play are games more interesting than our lives, as people more remarkable than us.
 

Dizchu

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Sep 23, 2014
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The point about female characters being universally pretty in video games is an awkward one. Because... I like pretty characters. Pretty male characters too. If I had the choice between playing a good-looking character or an ugly looking one or even a generic-looking one, I'd choose the pretty one. It's weird because I know that this isn't a great attitude, but at the same time... I just like playing attractive characters.

So I'm torn because even in the games I've worked on, that have had mostly female characters, I've made an effort to make them good-looking. Not sexualised or exaggeratedly attractive, just, ya know... good looking, realistic-ish characters. Like the sort you could find in real life (not in magazines, in real life). But still, I made the effort to make them pretty.

I guess what differentiates me from many developers is that I apply this bias to male characters too. It's odd, very odd. Because I often consider video game characters to be my self-insertion into that world. And like many others, I'd like to be good-looking. That's why I make my Skyrim characters super-pretty rather than play as Argonians or Khajits (sorry furries).

I find it hard to comment on this because I fall into the same trap myself when it comes to pretty characters and I'm actually aware of it, and if I were pressured into changing my game because of this I'd be pretty upset about it too. But at the same time, I know that it's kinda sexist to have exclusively pretty female characters and male characters of various levels of attractiveness.

I need a drink.
 

Islandbuffilo

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Apr 16, 2011
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Pluvia said:
Jesus Christ you see why I snip?
Ok, you picked to be delusiional
1. All we have been doing thus far is addressing the big game industry since you outright refuse to talk about anything else. So that statement that I'm not is total bull. Still not answering my question, if you addressed it that means you admitted, there isn't a problem correct? as the 9 of the 11 (Triple A only) games have diversity.
2. You're failure to read is derailing this entire thing, I asked for a explanation, you go on about how I was equating something I said when clearly explained I did not
3. There it is, your specific "diversity", no ethnicity, nationality, or anything else, just race and sexual orientation. Go ahead and lie about that too. We were not specific at all, first it was about games as a whole, then you changed it to the triple A industry, then you changed it to the western triple A industry (might as well take MGS5 off the list), then it went about general representation of different groups to racial and sexual orientation representation only. So strictly talking about the western gaming industry you have: Tomb Raider, protagonist that, may or may not be a lesbian. Halo 5, featuring one white Asexual (All Spartans are Asexual its cannon) and another Asexual of an unknown race, GTA 5, 2 white guys and a black guy, all implied to be straight, the witcher, (might not count, because its made in Poland) two protagonist, one is straight, the other might asexual. Batman Arkam knight, batman's sexuality depended on the writer, could be straight could be Asexual, Then you have evolved, extremely diverse racially. So we're more or less at the same spot as before 3 asexuals, 3 blacks, 1 Asian, 3 straight guys , 4 white guys and 16 N/A.
4.Oh look another lie, in no way is the statement "You're only looking a big games." considered ignoring them. As for the list, I gave it to you multiple times, you've been ignoring that.
5. I called that you would only talk about the big game industry and ignore the smaller game industry all together, which you did, I tried to get us to talk about both, you refused, because if we did you're argument would dissolve like paper in water, which it did any, so much so you had to limit it to big western games only, race and sexual orientation only. That's text book tunnel vision.
6. See that downs right intellectually dishonest. You know that's not would I said.
7.No I didn't, you said every once in a while, and with the list you provided I merely pointed out that that list meets your every once in while criteria.
8. Engrish. Actually how much of the game is made up by each character is depended on the player.
9. Well you should inform everyone where you live they mean the same thing: http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/every+once+in+a+while
10. Well shit, beat you to the list, but of course you're going to ignore it, like the other one.
11. You just quoted one of the list you asked for.
12. I like how you're blind to the word "only" and the sentence "Even then 9/11 games are pretty diverse"
Let me know if you're going to continue to be delusional, I've countered all your points, ask you to elaborate, and all you did was lie and move the goal post, despite even that I still met your new criteria. I've said all that needs to be said and you've proven that you don't care about diversity, at all.
 

Someone Depressing

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Jan 16, 2011
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In society, women everywhere are first judged by their physical appearance. Until more body diversity is introduced to gaming - and mainstream society - then we'll always have the stereotype of pretty women being better. Not that the opposite is true, but it's less common.

I'm not personally happy with how things are in gaming and I think we need more female representation and general diversity, but what can you do?
 

Islandbuffilo

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Apr 16, 2011
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Someone Depressing said:
I'm not personally happy with how things are in gaming and I think we need more female representation and general diversity, but what can you do?
Can listen to Drake, support the smaller games that meet your desires (They're out there) and start from the bottom and work your way to the top.
 

CritialGaming

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Mar 25, 2015
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Def25 said:
Good thoughts.

As a pc gamer the games i played were never about saving some girl. I had to destroy my enemies capture opbjectives complete quests. This damsel in distress is old and the funny thing that certain women you reffer who is a conartist and everyone knows it, is an actual damsel in distress despite believing her to be a strong independent woman. I saw the video on positive female cahracters and what she said was basicly to make characters that are blank and dont appear like women but generic characters. Due to those certain groups being ANNOYING online, having a female character is a no no for devs to avoid the critisim and shaming. Also how can games talk about complicated issues if every time they do people get OFFENDED and demand those things to be removed from them? These "progressiveness" starts to appear more like puritanism or people who run so far away from their parents that became them. This is not progressive, it is being afraid of having your views challenged and your feelins hurt so you lock yourself in a "safe space" It is pathetic.

As to why most games have strong male characters? In the past games had more imagination due to be sold to kids, now they are usually modern games in which you have a spec ops dude or something along those line, so more or less the kind of characters you will have will be the same. Say what you wish about me, but running around in the next cod as a transgender asian fat guy who identifies as a pony doesnt make any sense. You got saints row for that. All those individuals that want to be "represented" have issues with their identity and gender politics, personally i could be playing as a robot for all i care, it is about the gameplay not the character you play. How many games the last few years actually had good characters? Did remember me had a good character? Was ajay from far cry 4 a good character? Would sniper elite v3 be better if you played as a lesbian radical femminst? What if someone told you the character of velvet assasin is just that, would it change your opinion on the game? Hey guess what? one of the new characters in re6 was gay, did that change anything? One of the older ghost recon games had a gay character, did that change anything?

Finally in conclusion you have to ask yourself who buys those games? I know very well who buys the gtas and the halos and cods, so do the devs and publishers. If those certain groups want to be represented in gaming, they first need to prove that there is a market for it and instead of whinning, they should go and make games. I want specific kind of games, but they dont happen because there isnt a market for it. Infact look at mass effect, only 14% play as women despite how much effort and time and money bioware has put. Look at cod ghosts, it had female characters and despite that the game sucked.

So what is the point in conclusion?
This is the very essence in what I've been trying to bring to light with this topic. Diversity exists where it makes sense to have it. And people demanding more of it simply are trying to force it into places where it shouldn't be, simply for the sake of forcing it in somewhere. All the metaphors and offensive humor I put into my posts where simply trying to illustrate that.

Play what catches your interests. If Call of Duty doesn't suit your tastes, don't try and force your tastes into Call of Duty because you'll only get one kind of Dooty out of it.
 

Dendrik

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Mar 30, 2015
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Why this diversity in gaming stuff is kinda stupid

1) Lack of inclusion =/= bigotry

2) Gaming is primarily fantasy as a result ALL characters are going to be over the top especially in physical attractiveness.This means EVERYONE is going to be objectified regardless of background. We only see this more in AAA games because men are there target demographic and these game are heavily advertised.

3) Game development cost is high at the moment, taking risks would be disadvantageous right now. As a result you are going to see lead characters that are primarily from a particular background.

4) Lead characters are often written very bland in order to allow the player be more familiar with the environment.

5) Following number four, the best characters ever written have been ally NPC's who often come from very diverse back grounds because they help us become familiar with the plot and story. (Wynne from Dragon Age is a great example)

6) There is no pleasing some people attempting to do so is just a waste of time. Look at the current drama going on around Tekken 7 and there new Filipino character. She tested well with Filipino's and fans of Tekken, yet a handful of people complain and now they are considering removing her. Ironic how the advocacy for including more women in gaming is leading to the removal of women in gaming.

7) The average person pushing for more inclusion in video games often neglect to look at other genera's of games that have a plethora of females/LGBTQ/etc in them and then ignorantly proclaim there is not enough xyz in gaming. This is a gross and misleading stance as this not only sends a false message to non-gamers/inexperienced gamers about gaming culture it also does not acknowledge the great deal of diversity in gaming.

8) Why should a developer change or consider changing there own vision just because some people are complaining. Let people create what they want to create and allow the free market to decide what is successful.

9) How much is enough. 50%, 60% how much are we talking about. People pushing for more diversity don't ever give developers tangible goals as a result we end up with token characters that have the depth of a kiddy pool.

10)Just because the lead characters a primarily from one group doesn't mean the game is catering to that group. For example Final Fantasy 15 has an all male cast but it is made with female tastes in mind.(i mean come on there is a guy with perfect abs that walks around with his shirt open you think this is what your average male gamer is looking for).

11) AAA =/= gaming and doesnt represent all games. The games people complain about the most for not being inclusive are often AAA and suffer from problems listed in 3) and 4). Instead of rallying the towns people and getting your pitch forks out just try some games from different genera's. I mean how many people that complain about Gears of War or Uncharted have ever played Persona. (this is just an example and should not apply to all cases).

12) Its offensive. Its offensive to straight white men to suggest they are bigots and have this unrelenting iron grip over the games industry when in truth most development companies bend over backwards to get women/LGBTQ/etc in gaming. Its offensive to gamers as a whole because it suggests we lack the empathy to understand another persons struggle regardless of what background they are from. Its offensive to women/LGBTQ/etc, too often in these advocacy campaigns the ones marginalized the must are the people who are from these groups but are shouted down because they are ok with how things are at the moment. These people are told they have some form of internalized-bigotry and are quickly ignored in favor of paying lip-service to the most extreme elements in said group.

13) Art imitates life. The "inequalities" we see gaming are in our society as a whole and can speak volumes about said inequality. white washing the issue by just planting women/LGBTQ/etc in gaming wont fix the true problem.

14) What good has come from all this. I mean really. More and more it feels like gaming has become divided on an issue that frankly was never a big problem to begin with.