Discrimination in gaming

[Islandbuffilo]

Tunnel vision

Point proven.
All triple A.
All hyped.
All established franchise.

Even then 2/5 isn't bad odds, especially when you're vision is narrow.

I'm not offended, I just point out you people are being lazy and/or malcontent just for the sake of it, making your "discussion" come off as whining.

 

[MerlinCross]

Question; do we want more groups included in games or do we want better characters for all?

I mean we could just use movies as an example. Any horror game would be required to include a black character, probably male, who is the funny guy that gets killed in act 1 or 2. Or he's one of the bad asses that lives to the end.

Yeah then we'd have more black characters but is that really 'better'? Sure movies do have their Oscar shooting movies but look at how movies seem to handle minorities. I'm all for including more but do we really want to include them only to use more stereotypes? I mean worst case is that you might be deemed "-ist" for including such a weak/poor character. But you might be if you don't include one anyway..., well..shoot.

 

[MerlinCross]

Your questions seems to suggest that if someone isn't a straight white male (or well, implies that through the "more groups included" bit) then they're somehow a worse character.

You used movies as an example about black people are used as stereotypes, except from Oscar movies, but even that example doesn't work. Which movies? I can think of many more where there's characters who just happen to be black. Heck even Samuel Jackson has varied roles (Django, Kingsmen) and he's known for doing action roles, just like a lot of white guys.

So yeah, your question is working off a faulty basis that if someone isn't a straight white male then their entire character boils down to whatever makes them different from a straight white male, even though your movie analogy doesn't work when you compare it to movies.

If that's what you think it implied then go for it. My point was well, let's take Halo 5 since that was mentioned. Main character is now black. Nothing changes in the story to reflect this but now the main character is black. Would that be enough to make people happy? Or the next Call of Duty, main character is of Asian decent serving in the army but the story is still basically another CoD game, where it really doesn't matter what the MC is other than a moving gun platform. Granted flipside it shouldn't really matter what skin color they actually have as I just said they are little more than moving gun platforms with a name in these games.

And I kinda thought 'which movies' would have been clear but lemme expand on it. Triple A, blockbuster summer movies. Two movies that are coming out are Furious 7 and Get Hard(which has a white guy going to a black guy for 'prison training'. Yeah..). Or I could go back and point at Transformers, the one that had the 'black transformers' complete with gold 'tooth' if my memory is correct.

No their entire character shouldn't boil down to whatever makes them different from a white guy, that's the thing I want to avoid happen. I'd want them to be more than what makes them different, much like I'd want a white character to be more than an action movie star(Halo, Uncharted, the Order, etc etc). I'd rather not them be included just to be another check box, I'd like to see what you can do with a different character.

Maybe I'm bad getting my point across(never good at explaining or debating).

 

[mecegirl]

Your questions seems to suggest that if someone isn't a straight white male (or well, implies that through the "more groups included" bit) then they're somehow a worse character.

You used movies as an example about black people are used as stereotypes, except from Oscar movies, but even that example doesn't work. Which movies? I can think of many more where there's characters who just happen to be black. Heck even Samuel Jackson has varied roles (Django, Kingsmen) and he's known for doing action roles, just like a lot of white guys.

So yeah, your question is working off a faulty basis that if someone isn't a straight white male then their entire character boils down to whatever makes them different from a straight white male, even though your movie analogy doesn't work when you compare it to movies.

If that's what you think it implied then go for it. My point was well, let's take Halo 5 since that was mentioned. Main character is now black. Nothing changes in the story to reflect this but now the main character is black. Would that be enough to make people happy? Or the next Call of Duty, main character is of Asian decent serving in the army but the story is still basically another CoD game, where it really doesn't matter what the MC is other than a moving gun platform. Granted flipside it shouldn't really matter what skin color they actually have as I just said they are little more than moving gun platforms with a name in these games.

For your examples what changes would you like to see made? Putting aside the fact that a person's race doesn't always effect their lives in blatant ways. Like... people who are not white don't live in perpetual state of "very special episode on racism and or cultural differnces." Halo is set far into the future, it shouldn't be hard to imagine a world where the protagonists race wouldn't effect much. Or for call of duty, the game generally features American characters and American's can be Asian as well. So what exactally do you expect them to have to include?

But yes, that would be enough to make people happy. No one really expects much characterization from either franchise. Now for an example of an AAA game where people do have higher expectations, take Grand Theft Auto. The GTA franchise has done a relatively decent job with making each location and main chracter unique. The creative team do a lot of research in order to make their worlds feel authentic.

And I kinda thought 'which movies' would have been clear but lemme expand on it. Triple A, blockbuster summer movies. Two movies that are coming out are Furious 7 and Get Hard(which has a white guy going to a black guy for 'prison training'. Yeah..). Or I could go back and point at Transformers, the one that had the 'black transformers' complete with gold 'tooth' if my memory is correct.

The Fast and Furious franchise is actually an example of how to do things right. Get hard is middle of the road because of the black mentor/side kick trope. The transformers movies are a hot mess so I'm not surprised that they used stereotypes. But just because movies do things badly sometimes doesn't mean that that is all a non white character can be.

No their entire character shouldn't boil down to whatever makes them different from a white guy, that's the thing I want to avoid happen. I'd want them to be more than what makes them different, much like I'd want a white character to be more than an action movie star(Halo, Uncharted, the Order, etc etc). I'd rather not them be included just to be another check box, I'd like to see what you can do with a different character.

Maybe I'm bad getting my point across(never good at explaining or debating).

Can you not see how that is an undue burden? Its not like there aren't white characters who aren't more than the "action hero". Its just that AAA games, like summer block busters, tend to be somewhat shallow. People who appreciate diversity in fiction don't always need depth in the fiction they consume. Popcorn flick level games are cool every once an a while too, games are in part wish fulfillment after all. We can have both so why just push for one as if that is the only option? That's a surefire way to ensure that nothing changes at all.

 

[WilburCharlotte]

If a significant portion of "gamers" want non-traditional characters, stories and gameplay - why doesn't someone just make those games to ADD to the current mix? If there is a large & untapped market I would think that would be a golden opportunity for a person and/or company.

Of course that would mean a substantial amount of effort, talent & money would need to be applied to make and distribute said game(s).
I keep hearing that there is plenty of all three available (Brianna Wu & Zoe Quinn are both female developers & Anita Sarkeesian has no problem raising money), so why hasn't anyone done this?

I think mostly it's laziness and a fear of alienating the core demographic(straight white males ages 13-30).

Though any game where you can create a character you should be able to set their gender characteristics, so that a character can be trans but not post op/not want the op and such, along with having the character be as gay, bi, or straight as you want, and any race too. But the moral panic brigade and a fear of alienating the core demographic prevents this.

Let me rephrase my statement:

Why aren't the individuals already in the industry - say Giant Spacekat - leading by example? This a developer that has no existing "straight white male ages 13-30" demographic to alienate, is run & staffed entirely by women and has repeatedly requested more diverse characters/bodytypes/genders/racial backgrounds in games. Yet there 1st game has three white Barbie dolls as protagonists.

I guess my question boils down to:

If game studios/developers could be changing the gaming landscape NOW - don't put forth the effort for the changes they have (quite loudly) requested themselves, would should anyone else?

I keep hearing that many of the requested changes would cost little/no money to implement, so why don't the current "progressive" studios just do it already? Seems like a giant untapped market that early entrants could dominate and be the change they wish to see...

 

[Silvanus]

No their entire character shouldn't boil down to whatever makes them different from a white guy, that's the thing I want to avoid happen. I'd want them to be more than what makes them different, much like I'd want a white character to be more than an action movie star(Halo, Uncharted, the Order, etc etc). I'd rather not them be included just to be another check box, I'd like to see what you can do with a different character.

Fair argument, but would this result in simply defaulting to white characters? That shouldn't happen, either.

 

[Islandbuffilo]

Tunnel vision

Point proven.
All triple A.
All hyped.
All established franchise.

Even then 2/5 isn't bad odds, especially when you're vision is narrow.

I'm not offended, I just point out you people are being lazy and/or malcontent just for the sake of it, making your "discussion" come off as whining.

"Big games that I say don't count, don't count. Why? Lol I don't need a reason. I mean how else will I be able to pretend games have representation unless I take out literally every big game this year. Also I'm going to pretend you're whining because I can't play the offended card anymore."

/logic

You named five triple A games two of which have diversity , which by all means, constitutes as "every once in a while" claim that the entire industry has a diversity issue. You can't really mock my logic, when yours is "3 games out of the dozen of games that were, and will be released this year don't have "diversity", this is a industry wide issue!"

 

[Islandbuffilo]

You named five triple A games two of which have diversity , which by all means, constitutes as "every once in a while" claim that the entire industry has a diversity issue. You can't really mock my logic, when yours is "3 games out of the dozen of games that were, and will be released this year don't have "diversity", this is a industry wide issue!"

Feel free to name all the other triple A games coming out this year that fulfill the diversity criteria then. I want to see your list.

I'm shocked. Not only did you miss my point, you completely disregarded your previous statement. You said "every once in a while" and 2/5 fills that criteria two fold. The newest Tomb raider is coming out this year, add that to the list and you're split down the middle.

You want to increase those odds even more? Look into to so smaller games, many of witch have "diversity". Invest in those games and just like the Witcher series they'll be triple A games in no time flat.

 

[Mikeybb]

You named five triple A games two of which have diversity , which by all means, constitutes as "every once in a while" claim that the entire industry has a diversity issue. You can't really mock my logic, when yours is "3 games out of the dozen of games that were, and will be released this year don't have "diversity", this is a industry wide issue!"

Feel free to name all the other triple A games coming out this year that fulfill the diversity criteria then. I want to see your list.

While I agree with you on the point that the triple A (still hate that term, after all these years) is doing a poor show of drawing from a diverse base of characters, Halo 5 seems to be about a character called Jameson Locke according to some sources.
He'll either be primary, with chief playable too, or the focus will switch between them.
One of the things I'd read was claiming it's Locke's story, not the chief's.
Locke debuted in Nightfall and is played by Mike Colter.
He is male, but is most certainly not white.

Again, I think you're correct in drawing attention to the lack of diversity, but if these reports are correct, Halo 5 isn't a placeholder in that list you're both talking about.

Incidentally, it's always been my suspicion that the lack of diversity in main characters has been the result of an unholy union between laziness and the belief that a game sells better if you see an idealized representation of self in the starring role.
The former may stem from a very human tendency to find it easier when you follow an already charted path, rather than try something differently.
The latter could come from an interpretation of sale demographics, but it is based on the idea that gamers are more likely to purchase a game if they are represented in the main character.
I'm not sure that this does affect me or many gamers at all for that matter, but then I am willfully ignorant of marketing and it's ways.
It is an esoteric and dark sorcery that twists the form and morality of all who practice it and no sane mind would want any part of it.
I fear for what remains of my soul.
1
It may be possible I've been playing too much Darkest Dungeons.

Anyway.
Perhaps the pressure that haunts triple A to not only succeed but succeed bigger and better each year feeds this impulse to be less inventive in all areas.
All I hope is one or two more studios try to be a little braver, and are pleasantly surprised by the sales demographics that are brandished at them by the marketing hobgoblins in post development meetings.

 

[Mikeybb]

*snip*
complaints about Cortez in Mass Effect (the gay shuttle pilot) even to the extent that people asked for an option to "turn off gay romances" before the game was even released, and recently there was an uproar over the new female character in Overwatch being fat.

Hell, white people aren't a minority and females are literally 50% of Earth, yet games are so under representative that "white girl" is an example of it being diverse. Games are starting to become braver in their diversity, but a loud subset of gamers hate this so much they actively go out of their way to oppose it, for reasons that boggle my mind.

I remember that one.
Always struck me as one of the more odd things for people to be demanding or protesting about.

Already gone on record being a like for the resident heavy from overwatch.

As to the second bit...
Don't want to dabble in demographics overly as that way leads to pie charts, audience focus and other kinds of evil that can cause eternal arguments.
The only thing worth holding on to is this simple tenet.
Diverse character origins will lead to more diverse story elements.

Not all games will need this.
Some can survive by actively ignoring it, but those that choose to tell a story will find more tales to tell the further afield they look for a character's origin.

Hell, there's even a degree of variety in origin that could be applied to the typical white protagonist as it stands, let alone the origins you could draw on if you go further.

Of course, again it comes down to bravery on the part of the developer, quality in the game and story produced and the sales following up strongly enough to banish the marketing hobgoblins from the board room.
It's a holy trinity and they shy in fear from such radiance.

 

[Islandbuffilo]

snip

You misread, I said dozens of games, not exclusively triple A.

That plus the games John brought up are more than what you ask for which you continually refuse to acknowledge.
So much for that "every once in while" bullshit.

What stopping the current Big game industry from being like them? The fact that people (like you) ignore/discount their diverse games, those games don't sell well, and the primary consumer doesn't really care. What stopping you, the consumer from putting your money where your mouth is? Because lets be honest here there isn't really a quality gap between triple A and double A games, hell there's barely one between triple A and indie games. Only difference is scale really.

Diversity isn't really a problem in video games when you don't actively try to avoid it.

 

[GladiatorUA]

I've seen dozens of complaints about Cortez in Mass Effect (the gay shuttle pilot) even to the extent that people asked for an option to "turn off gay romances" before the game was even released

With how awkwardly Bioware handles romance and response choices, that's not surprising. In DAII a conversation with Anders could turn flirty out of nowhere. Not everyone is comfortable with that.

GTAV: Coming out on PC, 2 whites guys and a black guy.
Witcher 3: White guy, white girl.
Arkham Knight: White guy.
Metal Gear Solid 5: White guy.
Halo 5: White guy.

You've just listed 4 games from established franchises with cemented protagonists and GTA.

Diverse character origins will lead to more diverse story elements.

It's probably the other way around. You don't really have to write white male protagonist and a story for him. Just pick some tropes and chain them together. It takes no effort. It's safe, which is required for big investment. More nuanced and well written story, probably an adaptation of some fiction, can probably house a different kind of character. Sexuality is different though. I don't thing LGBT main character with prominent sexuality will happen in a big game for a while. Especially male.