Discrimination in gaming

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Islandbuffilo

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Bellvedere said:
That's implying either multiple body types can't be considered attractive, when people say they want different body types what they actually mean a body type that's not generally perceived as attractive, or both. To me the demand for "unattractive" women in games strikes me as insecure. Contrary to popular belief a lot of so called "eye candy" are All that and a bag of chips, and usually its the people wanting characters to be more than their physique who the one's judging the character solely for their physical appearance.
 

Islandbuffilo

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Pluvia said:
Ah yes. Those spooky Tumblr boogeymen. I hear they eat babies and dogs and aim to summon Cthulu. It sounds pretty bizarre but it makes about as much sense as "They want more representation so that means they want less" which is basically your first paragraph.
Well yes, given those types of people want a certain type of "representation", in certain places, at certain times.
 

Tay Sway

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this is still a thing?

so certain people want to see different trends in gaming. okay. if you have the resources to produce that content, and a market that wants it, whatever. if you can convince other people to see things your way, and you want to try spreading your ideas to further popularize things you want to see, fine. this does not mean other people are obligated to openly accept your opinions, however, and other people are as free to discuss your reasoning as you are to state it.

there's no need for emotionally-charged dialogue in any kind of debate: consider all points of view, agree with what you agree with, disagree with what you don't, and don't stoop to personal attacks. just act like rational, respectful human beings.
 

Metalix Knightmare

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Scow2 said:
SonOfVoorhees said:
Every woman looks like a supermodel? Same with movies and tv shows. Also why just mention woman, what about all men have chiseled looks and muscly figures? Again as with tv and movies. Its not just games. Its also advertising and telling us what a person should aspire to look like. Forget woman in games, feminists should concentrate on airbrushed models in magazines first, then singers who take their clothes off to sell songs and then adverts that use woman to sell stuff. Then maybe it will trickle through to gaming.
The thing is... those are real women (Even if touched up in sfx) - those actresses are not the creation of men.
So are you saying there are no non-hot women who could take those roles?
 

Scow2

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Metalix Knightmare said:
Scow2 said:
SonOfVoorhees said:
Every woman looks like a supermodel? Same with movies and tv shows. Also why just mention woman, what about all men have chiseled looks and muscly figures? Again as with tv and movies. Its not just games. Its also advertising and telling us what a person should aspire to look like. Forget woman in games, feminists should concentrate on airbrushed models in magazines first, then singers who take their clothes off to sell songs and then adverts that use woman to sell stuff. Then maybe it will trickle through to gaming.
The thing is... those are real women (Even if touched up in sfx) - those actresses are not the creation of men.
So are you saying there are no non-hot women who could take those roles?
No. But the women who do take the roles are still women.
 

Metalix Knightmare

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Scow2 said:
Metalix Knightmare said:
Scow2 said:
SonOfVoorhees said:
Every woman looks like a supermodel? Same with movies and tv shows. Also why just mention woman, what about all men have chiseled looks and muscly figures? Again as with tv and movies. Its not just games. Its also advertising and telling us what a person should aspire to look like. Forget woman in games, feminists should concentrate on airbrushed models in magazines first, then singers who take their clothes off to sell songs and then adverts that use woman to sell stuff. Then maybe it will trickle through to gaming.
The thing is... those are real women (Even if touched up in sfx) - those actresses are not the creation of men.
So are you saying there are no non-hot women who could take those roles?
No. But the women who do take the roles are still women.
Your point? I mean, the person who designed Bayonetta was a woman y'know.
 

Homey C-Dawg

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Most of the games that get hit with this kind of criticism are action games. The protagonists in actions games tend to be rather active. Being consistently active in the manner that these character are tends to mold a rather athletic body shape. Athletic body shapes are generally considered attractive.

It's not like there's zero logical reasoning to action heros looking sexy.
 

Islandbuffilo

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Pluvia said:
Islandbuffilo said:
Pluvia said:
Ah yes. Those spooky Tumblr boogeymen. I hear they eat babies and dogs and aim to summon Cthulu. It sounds pretty bizarre but it makes about as much sense as "They want more representation so that means they want less" which is basically your first paragraph.
Well yes, given those types of people want a certain type of "representation", in certain places, at certain times.
Those places being "Games they play" and the times being "Every once in a while".
Not necessarily the places are usually jus games with hype and the time is usually all the time. If "every once in a while" was actually the case we wouldn't be having this conversation for that would only require them to remove their hands from the side of their eyes and turn their necks a few centimeters to find diversity "every once in a while" and then some.
 

mecegirl

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Homey C-Dawg said:
Most of the games that get hit with this kind of criticism are action games. The protagonists in actions games tend to be rather active. Being consistently active in the manner that these character are tends to mold a rather athletic body shape. Athletic body shapes are generally considered attractive.

It's not like there's zero logical reasoning to action heros looking sexy.
No. Looking like a swimsuit model(airbrushing included) is not athletic. And I'm not saying that athletic people can't be sexy, but the women would be rendered with more mucle definition if athletic is what they were going for. Rigorous training tends harden the body's lines a bit. So if you take a character like Catwoman in the Arkham games and compare how her body is shaped to the US women's gymnastics team you can see a clear difference.

Take Misty Copeland for example. She a ballerina, and has an unconventional body type for a ballerina because she is curvy. But like most ballerina's the years of training has made her pretty ripped. Especially in the calves. Comparing her body to model Bar Refaeli, and while I'm sure Ms Rafaeli has a steady work out routine, her level of fitness isn't really athletic. She's simply soft and slender, which is something some women are by nature because of a high metabolism, not because they are active.
 

WilburCharlotte

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If a significant portion of "gamers" want non-traditional characters, stories and gameplay - why doesn't someone just make those games to ADD to the current mix? If there is a large & untapped market I would think that would be a golden opportunity for a person and/or company.

Of course that would mean a substantial amount of effort, talent & money would need to be applied to make and distribute said game(s).
I keep hearing that there is plenty of all three available (Brianna Wu & Zoe Quinn are both female developers & Anita Sarkeesian has no problem raising money), so why hasn't anyone done this?
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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WilburCharlotte said:
If a significant portion of "gamers" want non-traditional characters, stories and gameplay - why doesn't someone just make those games to ADD to the current mix? If there is a large & untapped market I would think that would be a golden opportunity for a person and/or company.

Of course that would mean a substantial amount of effort, talent & money would need to be applied to make and distribute said game(s).
I keep hearing that there is plenty of all three available (Brianna Wu & Zoe Quinn are both female developers & Anita Sarkeesian has no problem raising money), so why hasn't anyone done this?
I think mostly it's laziness and a fear of alienating the core demographic(straight white males ages 13-30).

Though any game where you can create a character you should be able to set their gender characteristics, so that a character can be trans but not post op/not want the op and such, along with having the character be as gay, bi, or straight as you want, and any race too. But the moral panic brigade and a fear of alienating the core demographic prevents this.
 

renegade7

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You do realize that aesthetic appeal doesn't exclusively mean sex appeal, right?

We have to make characters in some way aesthetically appealing because that's how you generate empathy. This is just rooted deep down in human psychology and there's little that can be done about it: pretty people are more sympathetic than ugly people, and that will always have an influence on how characters are designed and (in film and TV) cast. That does not mean that the only motivator for feeling empathy is sexual desire.

That doesn't mean it's incredibly important, ultimately. Legend of Zelda would still be fun if Zelda and Link were representative of "real women" and "real men", I'd just prefer they not be. Living up to ideals is central to the appeal of fantasy.

Continuing with that example, would it be reasonable for me to expect that, when I was a teenager, I'd just for granted have this obnoxiously cute quasi-romantic relationship with a hot blonde and that a central component to this relationship would be fending off douchey classmates and, heaven forbid, saving her from the literal embodiment of evil (going off Skyward Sword here, if not obvious)? Heck no. That doesn't happen in the real world, but no one would want to play the game if the relationship between Link and Zelda was like that of most teenage couples, ie approximately 8 months of boring dates, clumsy groping, and awkward sexual tension. It's not just Zelda's appearance that has been idealized but also the drama of the story.

Ultimately, I really think it's down to the Law of Conservation of Detail (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLawOfConservationOfDetail) Details are not included in the story unless they're somehow important or relevant. If the character is fat, or otherwise has a "non-ideal" body, there has to be a reason. Otherwise, conservation of detail demands you default to the ideal.

What this does not mean, and here is where I strongly disagree with OP, is that the only appeal that can be invoked is sexual in nature. Building a game around sex appeal is antithetical to generating good fantasy, it does in some ways exclude a female audience (women typically are not sexually interested in other women), and it perpetuates the stereotype of gamers as being sexually frustrated frustrated man-boys who never fully overcame their fear of cooties which, honestly, the behavior of some gamers isn't helping with either.

Social issues aside, let's just talk about how to market to a female audience. What must be understood is that character designs like Bayonnetta and Lara Croft (yes, even the new one), are male fantasies. Male fantasies do not appeal to women. If men are your target demographic, then fine. But women make up half of the population, and they're not buying video games. It's stupid to not try to access that market. In large part this means developers need to work to eliminate the "frustrated man-boys" stereotype. Practically speaking, that will mean that the focus might need to shift away from sex appeal to gain broader market interest.

That absolutely does not mean that female video game characters all need to be replaced with "real women" with "curves" and body hair. Aesthetically appealing female characters are important to women as well: look at the cast of, say, Pretty Little Liars. Aesthetic appeal will always be important in general for marketing. But sex appeal is gender-specific, so it doesn't make for a great strategy to generate broad popular interest.
 

Silvanus

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Pluvia said:
So "games they play" in other words. And every once in a while isn't the case? Lets see games that's coming out this year:

GTAV: Coming out on PC, 2 whites guys and a black guy.
Witcher 3: White guy, white girl.
Arkham Knight: White guy.
Metal Gear Solid 5: White guy.
Halo 5: White guy.
That's not fair! There's also The Order (white guy), the new Zelda (white guy, briefly thought to be a girl, but alas), Uncharted 4...

Wait, I'm not helping.