Discrimination in gaming

[Islandbuffilo]

And if I held up a picture of Dante from Devil May Cry and the Heavy from TF2, which would YOU rather see naked? Yet both of these are video came characters. That's sort of the crux of the problem, which you seem to see but just don't want to admit is a problem. The only time women are protagonists of value in video games is when they are extremely physically attractive, barring one or two exceptions. Do you not see the distressing subtext, here? That all ugly women are evil or of no value? Seeking body diversity in games isn't about seeking "realism," it's about getting out of this stereotype that attractive woman = good and ugly woman = bad.

For starters, personal preference, I've seen more fan art of the heavy naked than Dante. Besides, the Heavy isn't so much a protagonist, as he is a avatar.
Secondly "extreme" is subjective here, very subjective. Not to mention you're not taking into account that if a female protagonist is "extremely" attractive, more often than not the male characters in the game can also be considered "extremely" attractive as well.
Thirdly, you're broad stroking a lot and also discounting plenty of female protagonist, just because you consider them "extremely attractive".

Beauty being in the eye of the behold kind of makes your whole argument moot. Even if attraction wasn't subjective? So what? What's the harm in the protagonist being physically appealing? Besides most female villains are made out to be attractive and seductive anyway. I haven't played a single game where the female villain looked like Baba Yaga so that hardly sending the "Pretty" = good, "Ugly" = bad.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

You know, business analysts are the reasons for a lot of shit we have to deal with in the gaming industry. The over-saturation of free to play games, publishers saying that Remember Me couldn't have a female character, the people who said Ellie couldn't be on the cover of Last of Us. I'm not sure they should have the kind of influence they do. And is that actually a thing? Is a female character going to drastically reduce sales to any level? We're not talking about small studios are we? In fact, small studios very rarely come up in these discussions.

Pretty much. It's why I don't take "This is popular" as a reason to stop complaining.

Well then, if it's his opinion that I should "stop bitching" then people "screaming that the topic is trying to "ignore them and shut their mouths"" is a perfectly legitimate response. Really that's just their opinion if we're going by these standards.

While I can't verify if those people are right, considering those people get payed and the amount big companies spend on marketing and test groups I'd go on a limb and say they are (sadly) most likely right. While having a female character on the cover will not drastically lower sales, even a 5% differene means a lot. In the end video games are business and people want to keep having jobs and make more and better games.

I won't put it under people to not buy an action game if it has a female in it and add that it's right for both sexes, the idea that males see a cover with a female and says "eew girls" is just sexist, both sexes are equally at fault in judging games by the cover.

Not really. Just because their current method makes them money doesn't make it the only way to make money reliably. Hell it doesn't even make it the best way for them to make money. It's the safe zone that they know will work. Are there even any hard statistics about it lowering sales? This sounds like speculation. Yes I know games are a business, but alienating people you could be turning into customers is bad business.

Well then, I think that there's a bit of a problem in gaming culture in that case. One way or another something is certainly wrong here.

 

[Islandbuffilo]

Snip

You know, business analysts are the reasons for a lot of shit we have to deal with in the gaming industry. The over-saturation of free to play games, publishers saying that Remember Me couldn't have a female character, the people who said Ellie couldn't be on the cover of Last of Us. I'm not sure they should have the kind of influence they do. And is that actually a thing? Is a female character going to drastically reduce sales to any level? We're not talking about small studios are we? In fact, small studios very rarely come up in these discussions.

Pretty much. It's why I don't take "This is popular" as a reason to stop complaining.

Well then, if it's his opinion that I should "stop bitching" then people "screaming that the topic is trying to "ignore them and shut their mouths"" is a perfectly legitimate response. Really that's just their opinion if we're going by these standards.

While I can't verify if those people are right, considering those people get payed and the amount big companies spend on marketing and test groups I'd go on a limb and say they are (sadly) most likely right. While having a female character on the cover will not drastically lower sales, even a 5% differene means a lot. In the end video games are business and people want to keep having jobs and make more and better games.

I won't put it under people to not buy an action game if it has a female in it and add that it's right for both sexes, the idea that males see a cover with a female and says "eew girls" is just sexist, both sexes are equally at fault in judging games by the cover.

Not really. Just because their current method makes them money doesn't make it the only way to make money reliably. Hell it doesn't even make it the best way for them to make money. It's the safe zone that they know will work. Are there even any hard statistics about it lowering sales? This sounds like speculation. Yes I know games are a business, but alienating people you could be turning into customers is bad business.

Well then, I think that there's a bit of a problem in gaming culture in that case. One way or another something is certainly wrong here.

I can't help but feel the burden of alienation is strictly on the shoulders of a the costumers, most gaming companies aren't intentionally trying to alienate costumers, a lot of people tend to forgot/don't believe, that box art is made with more than just "what imagine is going to sell" in mind. If a female character not appearing on the box cover makes you feel alienated, well that sort of is a personal problem.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

You know, business analysts are the reasons for a lot of shit we have to deal with in the gaming industry. The over-saturation of free to play games, publishers saying that Remember Me couldn't have a female character, the people who said Ellie couldn't be on the cover of Last of Us. I'm not sure they should have the kind of influence they do. And is that actually a thing? Is a female character going to drastically reduce sales to any level? We're not talking about small studios are we? In fact, small studios very rarely come up in these discussions.

Pretty much. It's why I don't take "This is popular" as a reason to stop complaining.

Well then, if it's his opinion that I should "stop bitching" then people "screaming that the topic is trying to "ignore them and shut their mouths"" is a perfectly legitimate response. Really that's just their opinion if we're going by these standards.

While I can't verify if those people are right, considering those people get payed and the amount big companies spend on marketing and test groups I'd go on a limb and say they are (sadly) most likely right. While having a female character on the cover will not drastically lower sales, even a 5% differene means a lot. In the end video games are business and people want to keep having jobs and make more and better games.

I won't put it under people to not buy an action game if it has a female in it and add that it's right for both sexes, the idea that males see a cover with a female and says "eew girls" is just sexist, both sexes are equally at fault in judging games by the cover.

Not really. Just because their current method makes them money doesn't make it the only way to make money reliably. Hell it doesn't even make it the best way for them to make money. It's the safe zone that they know will work. Are there even any hard statistics about it lowering sales? This sounds like speculation. Yes I know games are a business, but alienating people you could be turning into customers is bad business.

Well then, I think that there's a bit of a problem in gaming culture in that case. One way or another something is certainly wrong here.

I can't help but feel the burden of alienation is strictly on the shoulders of a the costumers, most gaming companies aren't intentionally trying to alienate costumers, a lot of people tend to forgot/don't believe, that box art is made with more than just "what imagine is going to sell" in mind. If a female character not appearing on the box cover makes you feel alienated, well that sort of is a personal problem.

I think a problem with this is the trends behind it. I don't really think anyone is that put off but there simply being a male or female on a box art, but an overwhelming lack of women on box art can get rather disheartening. Same as the bechdel test. No one says a movie is bad because it can't pass it. People say it's troubling that so many movies fail to pass it though. And box art does indeed seem to be affected by executives concerned over how it's going to affect sales considering the mess with Remember Me or Last of Us.

 

[ZiggyE]

I am curious about the last statement you have made, there are so many super attactive female villains in video games that I do not even know where to start. In fact, I typed in female villains in video games into google and I immediately found a bunch top 10, 25 lists with such ugly characters like Harley Quinn, Selvaria(Valkyria Chronicles), Ada Wong(RE), Raven (Gravity Rush) and Kerrigan. If anything the ugly characters are an exception. In fact, I would say that male villains are the ones who are more likely to be physically abhorrent.

I... I always thought Selvaria was beautiful...

 

[Mister K]

I can't really say that I strongly agree with you. Especially about dragon/victim/savior argument. Exactly why, I don't know, beatiful warrior maiden can't go on a quest for saving her (maybe chubby, maybe skinny, maybe godlike in looks) beloved one? It's a fantasy, anything can happen. Besides, there is no such thing as a bad plot and overall story. It is always about what you do with it, how well you develop it and also about what you will do with details.

I also can't agree about "You see most, comic book and video game, artists are guys. Now imagine yourself as a hormone filled thirteen year old who just figured out he can draw like a bad-ass. Do you think for one second he isn't going to draw his dream girl on the cover of his binder?" Mate/Lass, I am 23 years old, I am far from being horny teen. I want characters that are well made first and pretty second. I mean, I won't be a hypocrite and will confess that I prefer looking at pretty ladies, but if said pretty lady is just a shell I won't care about hero. I wouldn't have liked Bayonetta if she was fanservice character. I like her because she is a baller.

But I do want diversity. Not because "it is a right thing to do". Not because boxes must be ticked. Not because we must pander to certain vocal minority of white middle-class western people. I want it because I WANT IT. That is all. I am not saying that every character has to be *checks memory for oscarbait archetypes* black lesbian transsexual handicapped female hooker with a heart of gold, who is also war veteran and a lonely mother to adopted incurable child from third world country. But what I am saying is that I'd like a bit more variety, without this variety being a character trait (i.e. black guy is not a character type, it's just the way the guy looks) that is forced down my throat. Yes Bioware of late years, I am looking at you.

 

[visiblenoise]

Let it go, man. Some people just have different, weird, or nonexistent ideals of beauty, in relation to gaming or otherwise. It doesn't matter that there might appear to be a convergence of preference in physical appearance. I generally share the same opinion as the OP and I'm fine with the way things currently are, but what can we do if a significant portion of the gaming community happens not to share the same fascination with slim figures and suggestive dress (or conversely, the same disinterest in the lack thereof) as their contemporaries? If we ***** about it, we become as annoying as they might seem to us. It's all up to the individual game studios, at this point.

 

[Danny Dowling]

This kind of reminds of when Morgan Freeman said the best way to handle racism is "stop talking about it". I'm paraphrasing of course, but the more exposure women get in and to games and the less guys are shown to be malicious sexist bastards the better chances we have of the phase of this whole thing blowing over and not being a thing in the future.

If we call this a problem, which I suppose in some circles it clearly is, then first things first; it isn't going to be fixed in a week. I mean just look at the progress of the past 2-3 years? Slow right? Sure it could be sped up, but we're a long way from a discrimination free society and an awfully long way from a discrimination free video gaming world.

Also, just wanna say real quick, this is my opinion, I don't have an issue with having most of my women in video games looking hot (but realistic, none of that DoA shit) and not over sexualised (that's just a kid childish y'know) and most of my guys looking trim and with a low body fat % and having done a good amount of sit ups.

It's video games man, if it isn't some uber realistic or something, then let's keep the fantasy of video games fantasy. Why not.

 

[Vivi22]

And if I held up a picture of Dante from Devil May Cry and the Heavy from TF2, which would YOU rather see naked? Yet both of these are video came characters. That's sort of the crux of the problem, which you seem to see but just don't want to admit is a problem. The only time women are protagonists of value in video games is when they are extremely physically attractive, barring one or two exceptions. Do you not see the distressing subtext, here? That all ugly women are evil or of no value? Seeking body diversity in games isn't about seeking "realism," it's about getting out of this stereotype that attractive woman = good and ugly woman = bad.

It's not really just about attractive women are good and ugly women are bad either though. The reality is that almost all female characters are depicted conforming to an impossible standard of beauty whether they're heroes or villains. There's almost zero diversity. And studies are being done which indicate that girls and women who play games as these characters often end up feeling more self conscious about their own bodies because there are no other types of women out there. I mean christ, even Kerrigan, the god damn queen of blades and infested leader of the zerg, has carapace boobs, and impossibly thin waist, and high heels growing out of her feet. There is something horrifically wrong with the view of the female form in the industry when an alien infested woman bug hybrid is still made to look like a super model.

 

[Vivi22]

This kind of reminds of when Morgan Freeman said the best way to handle racism is "stop talking about it". I'm paraphrasing of course, but the more exposure women get in and to games and the less guys are shown to be malicious sexist bastards the better chances we have of the phase of this whole thing blowing over and not being a thing in the future.

I have to disagree. When the problem is one the majority of people don't even acknowledge exists and which puts the majority of women off of ever wanting to enter the industry to help change it from within, not talking about it is one of the worst things you can do.

 

[Danny Dowling]

This kind of reminds of when Morgan Freeman said the best way to handle racism is "stop talking about it". I'm paraphrasing of course, but the more exposure women get in and to games and the less guys are shown to be malicious sexist bastards the better chances we have of the phase of this whole thing blowing over and not being a thing in the future.

I have to disagree. When the problem is one the majority of people don't even acknowledge exists and which puts the majority of women off of ever wanting to enter the industry to help change it from within, not talking about it is one of the worst things you can do.

Fair, but I need to ask; if it isn't worth enough that some strong minded women wants to step in and change it against the odds then... well... I mean Margaret Thatcher went in as PM it was an all-male environment. Surely we want someone as strong willed to do in this industry rather than try and soften it up from the outside? Something that I'm sure we all know won't happen. Thoughts?

 

[Islandbuffilo]

I think a problem with this is the trends behind it. I don't really think anyone is that put off but there simply being a male or female on a box art, but an overwhelming lack of women on box art can get rather disheartening. Same as the bechdel test. No one says a movie is bad because it can't pass it. People say it's troubling that so many movies fail to pass it though. And box art does indeed seem to be affected by executives concerned over how it's going to affect sales considering the mess with Remember Me or Last of Us.

Well, that would still a personal problem. But I think you made need to downsize the scale of supposed trend. Out of the games closest to me right now only 2 feature exclusively male characters, 2 feature exclusively female, while the majority features both men and women, and I know that trend more or less continues to the box art in the rest of game collection. I don't its accurate at all to say there is overwhelming lack of females on the front cover of games, that's simply not true. This trend really only applies to certain types of games, and why it exist are attributed to numerous factors.

I didn't say they weren't, I said profit wasn't the only factor taken into consideration when they designed the box art.

 

[Fox12]

Yep, you're absolutely right. Bayonetta is a great female role model. Because

Spoiler

I'm not sure what to say. You're block of text was a little sick, like I was reading Tom Wayne Gacey's fluffy pink diary. Apparently the only reason a sad, lonely, hairy little man (your words, not mine) would want to save someone is if they get some "princess pussy." Because there's no other reason help someone, right? If you accept that point of view then games are nothing more then escapist fantasies for the socially repressed. But games can be so much more.

This is why I love Silent Hill 2. It calls bullshit on this worldview, and makes people look at the ugly truth.

 

[Islandbuffilo]

I'm not sure what to say. You're block of text was a little sick, like I was reading Tom Wayne Gacey's fluffy pink diary. Apparently the only reason a sad, lonely, hairy little man (your words, not mine) would want to save someone is if they get some "princess pussy." Because there's no other reason help someone, right? If you accept that point of view then games are nothing more then escapist fantasies for the socially repressed. But games can be so much more.

This is why I love Silent Hill 2. It calls bullshit on this worldview, and makes people look at the ugly truth.

Because Bayonetta has no other qualities other than being shapely and shooting guns. Her "dialog" is supplemented purely with hip wiggling and gun cocking, its quite and interesting form of communication.

This is kind of vague, broad stroking, and tad bit pretentious.

Are you implying that there is a problem with escapist fantasies? And that game's are either, that or something "more" (what ever the hell that means)? We can't have both? There's no middle ground? What's this ugly "truth", some archaic horror game MAKES one see?

 

[lord canti]

I'll say what I always say. I don't give a shit about how a character looks, want to know why? Because when I think about an iconic character the first thought inst "oh damn they looked awesome" it's " damn that was a really interesting character". They can make a character that has the most appealing design ever,be it male or female, and I wouldn't give a crap about them if they are not interesting. I know people complain about that as well, but it always seem to take a back seat to how they look and I think that needs to be reversed.

 

[inmunitas]

I think the entire argument over "trying to force diversity" into video games or existing franchises ultimately leads to pointless nonsensical squabbling and just wastes everybody's time as a result.

 

[CritialGaming]

I think the entire argument over "trying to force diversity" into video games or existing franchises ultimately leads to pointless nonsensical squabbling and just wastes everybody's time as a result.

Thus the idea of trying to stop it. While my post did put in a little bit of offensive humor on purpose, the idea behind it is that we have plenty of diverse games out there. Sure games featuring 500 pound Irish Lesbians (or your given character preference) might be hard to find, with a little looking you can probably find a game that falls close enough. The outcry is that this diversity isn't the dominate box-art-call-of-duty-rock-opera along the shelves for your local game store.

But there is a reason why they call it a Minority, there aren't a lot of you. Mass market appeal dictates most things. But like many forms of art, games do have examples that can fit into almost every little niche you can imagine (sans 500 pound Irish LEsbians....I think).

The message I'm trying to bring to light is trying to change an entire industry that already offers you exactly what your asking for is a lot like asking a burger place to make it a double. They will look at you with a fairly blank look, then charge you double price.

 

[Vlado]

Yes, you're right, CritialGaming, and it's a pretty good (if not perfectly structured) summary from a person who hasn't looked into these things too much.

Sadly, irrational people will keep coming after gaming - as you said, 10 years ago it was "games make you violent," today it's "games make you hate women," in 10 years, who knows? History has and will keep proving these lunatics wrong, and, like before, we gamers must stick together and defend what we love in the face of adversity.