Discussion about Self-Insert Characters in Fiction (Mary Sue/Gary Stu)

Recommended Videos

the December King

Member
Legacy
Mar 3, 2010
1,580
1
3
undeadsuitor said:
the December King said:
Agema said:
Absolutely. "But... one of the leads is a black person. HOW DARE YOU SHOVE SOCIAL JUSTICE DOWN OUR THROATS!"
I gotta admit that I was initially surprised that there was a black Stormtrooper... though, really, my surprise was that there was a non-clone Stormtrooper - but once I realized that the forces needed to be supplemented after time with more traditional means of militarization as the empire expanded, I was cool with it.

Though, what happened to the cloning planet... uh, Kamino? Was it destroyed, or was knowledge of it hidden?
Honestly, I'm still confused at why some people are stuck on the idea that storm troopers were clones when the only thing ever linking the two was the last 10 second scene of the last prequel movie

The original trilogy movie seemed to kill that idea with even the most basic logic and thinking. Since like....they all had different heights and voices. And you know...han and Luke weren't immediately discovered in their storm trooper disguises.
Wasn't that the whole point behind the second movie, with Kamino and the huge armies of Jango Fett clones made for Palpatine? It was an ongoing thing, wasn't it?

And as for the original trilogy, I think it's because some of us (as I can't speak for the other people you say think this way) assumed that the Prequels established something as canon, that wasn't necessarily a thing before.
 

Trunkage

Nascent Orca
Legacy
Jun 21, 2012
9,370
3,163
118
Brisbane
Gender
Cyborg
KingsGambit said:
trunkage said:
Yep, those 'anti-SJWs' are affronted. Females lead have to be perfected (oxymoronically by not being perfect and thus labelled as Mary Sue) or these guys are just triggered all over the place. Remember when Miles Morales was seen as evil diversity hire by these guys? Now he's getting his own movie.

And this doesn't stop Rey from being a potential Mary Sue. It's a great way to analysis and comment on a character. Also, notice those quotation marks around 'anti-SJW'? They're there because these guys are just SJWs fighting for causes like all Male leads, that are definitely straight. Claiming they aren't fighting for Social Justice (as they see it in their eyes) is silly.
Thank you for make stuff up to put into my mouth. Being against social justice doesn't mean one is against female characters and your examples were terrible. The solution to bad female characters isn't male characters, it's GOOD female characters.
I literally didn't call you anything or put anything in your mouth. Unless your claiming to be an anti-SJW. Then you are a literally hypocrite, just as an SJW is. Anti-SJWs everywhere listen up, stop acting like SJWs.

Ghostbusters 16 was a bad film, but the issue was (and still is) that the stars/makers are still blaming its failure on sexism, when it's not because of sexism. It's because it's rubbish. No one, women included, wants to watch those four actresses riff off each other aimlessly for two hours with crap VFX.
I'd agree. Unless there is actual sexism going on, don't blame bad results on sexism.

Like, for example, these actors could say that the Anti-SJWs made the movie less of a successful because they were offended at women. Which was actual sexism (which is true, but I'd doubt Anti-SJWs would have made that much of an impact on the box office so its not much of a defence.)

The issue with bad female characters is not the "female" part, it's the "bad" part. The issue with Rey is not that she's a she but that she's awful, a shallow Mary Sue that has the unenviable task of carrying a badly written, nonsensical film.
Yep agree.

Pity that's not what you, personally, focussed on. You blame these flaws like terrible story writing and characters on diversity. Which is just as silly as those women from Ghostbusters blaming it sexism.

If Ghostbusters 2016 "went back to being males", it still would have been a terrible movie. No matter the gender, it was going to be bad. You know what that means? Diversity wasn't the cause. It's the storywriters, actors, producers. It has noting to do with gender.

Let's take the gender flipped Rey... Luke. Who have the exact same faults as Rey. A cardboard cut-out running around a Death Star

PS. Oceans 8 was almost a beat for beat, in many cases shot for shot, recreation of Oceans 11, and it still flopped. Why? I'm sure you'll blame it on sexism, instead of unimaginative Hollywood studios remaking stuff we've already seen, only now with social justice added in. The real reasons are the same as GB2016: we already have the original, didn't need or want the remake and the remake just isn't as good. Even women would rather watch George Clooney, Brad Pitt and Matt Damon in Oceans 11, than women in Oceans 8. But nope, sexism, much easier.
Oceans 8 made $300 mil on a $70 mil budget. Is that considered a flop? Or are you mixing up not being as much of a success as Oceans 11 with being a flop. I didn't see Oceans 8 because Oceans 11 was enough. It wasn't a great premise in the first place and the whole franchise just needs to die. Similarly Logan Lucky was SJW too, hicks from the bush are actually capable of a caper. That was a waste of time, just as Oceans 11 or 8 was. God, I don't think heist movies work anymore.

But then, I recognise that some people clearly still like these movies, AND I ACTIVELY TRYING NOT TO TAKE THAT AWAY FROM THEM JUST BECAUSE I PERSOANLLY DONT LIKE IT.
 

Hawki

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 4, 2014
9,651
2,179
118
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
undeadsuitor said:
The original trilogy movie seemed to kill that idea with even the most basic logic and thinking. Since like....they all had different heights and voices. And you know...han and Luke weren't immediately discovered in their storm trooper disguises.
On the now Legends canon, it was established that Stormtroopers became predominantly recruit-based rather than clone based. The 501st was a a key exception.

When people were in an uproar around Finn, about how it didn't match Star Wars canon...well, let's just say those people were applying a very selective interpretation of it. And even if Stormtroopers were all Jango clones up to RotJ, who was to say it hadn't changed by the time TFA occurred?

Xprimentyl said:
Pretty sure this was done because there were 3 very similar ?Mary Sue? threads active at the same time. Redundancy is redundant.
Except now we're expected to discuss every MS ever in the same thread?

Look at where it's going - it's pure Star Wars. I can't just throw in Bella Swan and expect people to take a detour.
 

the December King

Member
Legacy
Mar 3, 2010
1,580
1
3
Hawki said:
On the now Legends canon, it was established that Stormtroopers became predominantly recruit-based rather than clone based. The 501st was a a key exception.

When people were in an uproar around Finn, about how it didn't match Star Wars canon...well, let's just say those people were applying a very selective interpretation of it. And even if Stormtroopers were all Jango clones up to RotJ, who was to say it hadn't changed by the time TFA occurred?
I just looked up the Legends Stormtroopers stuff on Wookiepedia. That's all very interesting stuff, but I still maintain that being surprised that Finn was not a clone could be a natural reaction and not a racist one, especially if one had no prior knowledge of these events as outlined in this additional lore, and was basing their knowledge solely off of the movies and the events portrayed therein- and again, once it was explained to me (ie: that recruits were taken in as time passed), it all made sense.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
24,759
0
0
Agema said:
Absolutely. "But... one of the leads is a black person. HOW DARE YOU SHOVE SOCIAL JUSTICE DOWN OUR THROATS!"

Because that is approximately all a fair chunk of them need to be triggered. There's a couple of offhand jibes directed at excessive machismo, a woman who can fight, and IT'S SOCIAL JUSTICE GONE MAD. Of course, those of them who realise at some level that their case isn't very good (or just don't want to seem too obvious) instead take the route of being hypercritical, and just try to be as deliberately negative as possible on pseudo-objective grounds. Good is presented as okay, okay is presented as abysmal - anything as long as it damages what they don't like.

One might point out the irony that as a group they have become the worst of what they used to complain about: the minority activist types who constantly complain about anything and everything for not ticking the boxes they want ticked. Ah well, gaze long enough into the abyss and the abyss gazes back into you, as the saying goes.
It's not even irony, really. Back before "SJW" was used as a pejorative, Republicans tried to make fashionable the term "culture warrior," it in itself a positive term to describe their side in a supposed culture war that included things like being considerate and inclusive. They were outrage warriors, basically. Someone said "happy holidays?" Rage! Someone didn't mock the disabled? Rage! Someone was inclusive? Rage!

Really, we've had people with a need to be triggered since the 90s and a certain group of people made "political correctness" mjuch bigger than the people they were decrying ever did. Probably longer, since Archie Bunker represented millions of real people.

Rage! is one hell of a drug. And like most drugs, you need more and more to get to the same place the longer you abuse it. The reason the "War on Christmas" stopped getting much coverage because people stopped caring. Bill Oreily claimed it had been won, bu we're still seeing holiday sales, holiday trees, and holiday displays.

However, while most people eventually get tired of the silliness, we occasionally see outrage. It gets smaller and sillier each time, like that one time a couple of years ago when there was a minor War on Christmas resurgence because a few people were upset that Starbucks--once the enemy simply for having holiday cups--were pushing the gay agenda because the hands on their holiday cup were a little too gay or something. And it got a little attention, but was mostly ignored for the nonsense it was.

What's left is the hardcore outrage warrior, and it takes less and less to get this small and concerted group to sound the alarms.

This is pretty much what I think we're seeing in comics, movies, and video games. It's not so much what the movement has become, but what I'm pretty sure it has always been. People who complain about people being offended while looking for something to be offended about. And it's why I generally have engaged in this stuff less and less over the years, because it becomes more absurd. Captain America's black now? Oh no! Nobody other than Steve Rogers has ever been Captain America before! The Doctor's a woman? Oh no, how can they reasonably explain how an immortal alien who can swap bodies can become a woman? A woman busting ghosts? A WOMAN using the Force!?

The irony is, in some of these cases they could hide it if they just waited a little bit. Instead of flipping out because of the announcement the Ghostbusters movie would feature women, they could just wait and watch it. It wasn't that good, though I did enjoy a couple of scenes. Hell, Mad Max is one I could see. I know it's critically acclaimed, but I still haven't finished it. They could disguise their outrage by just holding off a bit, but they seem to prefer to make up a story anyway. Finn's arc was somehow about Sock juice, and we knew this before the movie came out because...he was black. Which brings me back to the here and now, where people are making criticisms of Rey that don't reflect on her character in the movies.

Is she a good character? Well, to the extent you can consider any Star Wars character "good," I think she's somewhere in that pack, but I never watched Star Wars for its amazing character depth, I watched it for its campy cowboy space wizard aesthetic, and watching an orphan from a desert planet pick up a laser sword and kick ass fits into that.

I mean, to be completely honest, I don't doubt that most of these creators are able to do what they're doing for cynical reasons. I just don't think it has anything to do with social justice. I think it has to do with the money that can be made once you start tapping women and people of colour, etc. It's not so much social justice as the discovery that we're as exploitable as anyone else.

Which is why it doesn't get more traction. Most people are becoming used to the idea.

I'm not sure if I'd even notice if I didn't frequent nerd sites for nerd news and nerd information.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
24,759
0
0
Hawki said:
When people were in an uproar around Finn, about how it didn't match Star Wars canon...well, let's just say those people were applying a very selective interpretation of it. And even if Stormtroopers were all Jango clones up to RotJ, who was to say it hadn't changed by the time TFA occurred?
Especially given the defeat of the Empire. While I don't like the idea that blowing up Death Star 2: Star Harder and killing the emperor immediately ended the war, significant resources were diverted into a trap to wipe out the Rebellion and they lost those resources and were thrashed. The dynamic full well could have changed.

And...that's more or less what happened. I mean, minus it being the Empire. Now it's Empire Cosplay, and they're running on different rules.

the December King said:
I just looked up the Legends Stormtroopers stuff on Wookiepedia. That's all very interesting stuff, but I still maintain that being surprised that Finn was not a clone could be a natural reaction and not a racist one, especially if one had no prior knowledge of these events as outlined in this additional lore, and was basing their knowledge solely off of the movies and the events portrayed therein- and again, once it was explained to me (ie: that recruits were taken in as time passed), it all made sense.
I didn't find it surprising. I didn't even know for a fact Finn was a Stormtrooper. The very first movie filmed had a scene where two non-stormtroopers dressed up as stormtroopers. Even if the troopers were all Jango clones, there's no saying Finn was a stormtrooper (which he technically isn't). The dub thing about them as bad guy outfits is that they transform you into a faceless grunt and anyone can be under there, as Farmboy and Too Old For This demonstrated.

Finn even looks like he might be trying to escape, a notion which is promoted by the teaser by adding the chatter of an Imperial Probe Droid. The entire four seconds is set up as if to say not all is well in Whoville. We're given so little to go on in a series which has repeatedly shown us not everything is as it seems.

undeadsuitor said:
the prequels also established midiclorians

but how many people want that back?
Ooh! Ooh! I do! I...*gets shot*
*Willhelm scream*
 

Terminal Blue

Elite Member
Legacy
Feb 18, 2010
3,933
1,804
118
Country
United Kingdom
the December King said:
Wasn't that the whole point behind the second movie, with Kamino and the huge armies of Jango Fett clones made for Palpatine? It was an ongoing thing, wasn't it?
In-universe I don't think it's particularly likely that Palpy would be entirely cool with leaving the species of clone engineers capable of churning out armies capable of winning a galactic-scale war just lying around.

the December King said:
And as for the original trilogy, I think it's because some of us (as I can't speak for the other people you say think this way) assumed that the Prequels established something as canon, that wasn't necessarily a thing before.
The clones were a blunt force writing solution to an imagined problem. Namely, star wars is about a war, in the stars, and a lot of people die in it. They generally die in clean and bloodless ways, but they still die. As Lucas got older and had kids and stuff, he seems to have gone a bit sour on the idea of exposing children to what is essentially a war film, because of the potentially upsetting implications that the people getting killed might have families who loved them. The clones are basically there so they can get killed in these massive robot battles but you don't have to think about awkward things like the horrors of war. They're just clones, it's fine. It's fine.

In my opinion, the clones are hands down the worst decision in the prequels. Firstly, because the problem is redundant. People die a lot in the prequels anyway and there are some quite graphic scenes for little kids. I don't think the general awareness that actual people die in a war is going to push those kids over the edge or get them playing with cigarette lighters. Secondly, because the clones are characters in every way that counts, and the film never really explains why it's okay for them to die beyond just implying that noone in the setting cares. Thirdly, because it calls into question the fundamental reality of the republic. The republic is presented as a government, it's not the space UN, it's space congress. It has a capital, it has government buildings which are presumably maintained through taxation. Given how much detail is given to the bureaucracy of the republic and its relationship with the entities which make it up (which include greedy megacorproations with massive privately-owned robot armies) the fact that the republic has no armed forces whatsoever isn't just a case of them being idiots, it outright breaks the illusion that this society could exist. Finally, it strips the necessary human context. The original trilogy was a world war 2 movie in space. The Empire were literally Nazis. In that context, the prequels are trying to be a story about the rise of totalitarianism in a democratic society, and that story is undermined by not being a human story.

Like, the clone wars was mentioned, so there do have to be clones somewhere, but they were a terrible decision, and I don't think anyone writing for this setting really wanted to keep them around in their present form.
 

twistedmic

Elite Member
Legacy
Sep 8, 2009
2,542
210
68
trunkage said:
Oceans 8 made $300 mil on a $70 mil budget. Is that considered a flop?
Ever since the MCU really took off it seems to me that a lot of people consider a movie a flop if it doesn't earn over a billion dollars, regardless of production cost.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
24,759
0
0
twistedmic said:
trunkage said:
Oceans 8 made $300 mil on a $70 mil budget. Is that considered a flop?
Ever since the MCU really took off it seems to me that a lot of people consider a movie a flop if it doesn't earn over a billion dollars, regardless of production cost.
I think a more relevant analysis with regards to this line of discussion is it's a flop if I don't like it." Angry fanboys have argued the flop nature of both TLJ and Black Panther. While there's an argument that TLJ didn't meet expectations, that's separate from being a flop and Back Panther failing is definitely wishful thinking.
 

Agema

Overhead a rainbow appears... in black and white
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,917
7,080
118
the December King said:
I gotta admit that I was initially surprised that there was a black Stormtrooper... though, really, my surprise was that there was a non-clone Stormtrooper - but once I realized that the forces needed to be supplemented after time with more traditional means of militarization as the empire expanded, I was cool with it.
I don't think many who saw the original Star Wars before the prequel trilogy assumed the stormtroopers were clones. What's perhaps harder to get is why a bounty hunter would have provided great genes for stormtroopers - after all, bounty hunters stereotypically tend more to be "lone wolf" types unlike what might be expected from a soldier. Although the scientist part of me accepts that's most likely to be an upbringing thing.

Also, as Jango and his sprog Boba are shown to be pretty damn handy - possibly the best bounty hunters of their era. So why would stormtroopers off their genetic code so dismally incompetent?
 
Apr 5, 2008
3,736
0
0
undeadsuitor said:
Honestly, I'm still confused at why some people are stuck on the idea that storm troopers were clones when the only thing ever linking the two was the last 10 second scene of the last prequel movie
It was an important and established part of Star Wars lore. While Episode 2 did show us the process, the Clone Wars was a historic event that occured between Episodes 2 and 4. While it was originally slightly different in the books (it involved Ysalamiri [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ysalamir] and a mountain and troopers weren't the only things being cloned), it was canonised by Lucas in Ep2 as being a) done on Kamino b) Jango Fett provided the DNA c) clones were somehow altered for obedience and lastly d) Boba Fett was a perfect, unaltered clone for Jango to have as a son.

All the troopers were these clones, at least until RotJ. Assuming the new movies are 30 years later in-universe as well as real world, then it's not hard to believe some would start dying. But it's never explained when they went from clones to randoms, or how what was left of the Empire is still capable of fielding the offences they do, why there's a need for a "rebellion" at all and dozens of other things that just don't make sense. The villains are frankly comical and lacking. Snoake was made out to be mysterious, but killed unceremoniously, Kylo Ren is a sop who has childish tantrums, the First Order is a ridiculous antagonist that is a childish facsimile of the Empire.
 
Apr 17, 2009
1,751
0
0
undeadsuitor said:
thats the point. they're the neo-nazis to the empires nazis. cheap knockoffs and fanboys who can really only do some real damage because the federation of planets or something was all to happy to ignore them until they started killing people


probably because there was a space caravan of brown aliens somewhere lightyears from crossing a border
Yeah, essentially the Empire are these guys [https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qS9bEvwLza8/V7aOm9RwH2I/AAAAAAAAKz8/Y47YUSGYXc8205ohVpD_KLYRp1mfjJqbgCLcB/s1600/Nazi_rally_Argentina_1938_3.jpg] whereas the First Order are these guys [https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/08/14/11/432E866100000578-0-image-a-20_1502706382703.jpg] who want to be those first guys but can't quite get there
 

Trunkage

Nascent Orca
Legacy
Jun 21, 2012
9,370
3,163
118
Brisbane
Gender
Cyborg
Palindromemordnilap said:
undeadsuitor said:
thats the point. they're the neo-nazis to the empires nazis. cheap knockoffs and fanboys who can really only do some real damage because the federation of planets or something was all to happy to ignore them until they started killing people


probably because there was a space caravan of brown aliens somewhere lightyears from crossing a border
Yeah, essentially the Empire are these guys [https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qS9bEvwLza8/V7aOm9RwH2I/AAAAAAAAKz8/Y47YUSGYXc8205ohVpD_KLYRp1mfjJqbgCLcB/s1600/Nazi_rally_Argentina_1938_3.jpg] whereas the First Order are these guys [https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qS9bEvwLza8/V7aOm9RwH2I/AAAAAAAAKz8/Y47YUSGYXc8205ohVpD_KLYRp1mfjJqbgCLcB/s1600/Nazi_rally_Argentina_1938_3.jpg] who want to be those first guys but can't quite get there
That photo... funny stuff and totally true
 

twistedmic

Elite Member
Legacy
Sep 8, 2009
2,542
210
68
KingsGambit said:
All the troopers were these clones, at least until RotJ.
The Stormtroopers were not clones in the first movie, evidenced by varying heights between different troopers. Plus you have the difference in armor between clonetroopers and stormtroopers.