Discussion Regarding Inclusivity in the Gaming Community

[CatHands]

Hello all,

I want to preface this by saying that I do not wish to be inflammatory, violate forum rules (please contact me if there are issues that I can fix), or have this become an argument about misogyny/misandry/*-phobia in the industry. This is meant as a constructive discussion to bridge gaps and further the causes I have seen many forum users support.

This discussion regards the proper means by which we can strive for INCLUSIVITY in the video gaming community given that current means are lacking. Your opinion is welcome regardless of whether you believe that inclusivity is important, or not, simply contribute meaningfully.

It is clear that websites spewing hate and vitriol in articles against "gamers" is not an effective means by which to change the minds of the few people who feel the need to lash out and harass. No one has ever changed their mind by being shamed and having hate directed at them (studies pending), especially when there is a rather minor subset of people who thrive off the attention that such articles provide them. In fact, often, the broad brushstrokes employed serve to alienate people.

Many sites end their "activism" at the reporting of abuse of figures in the industry. This is not a means to achieving inclusivity. This only serves to highlight that minorities should avoid this industry, it only reinforces the status quo.

One thing I would like to see is interviews with developers. The experiences of real, live, human beings serve to give us a context. Many people enter creative industries because they feel inspired by someone in that field they can relate to, their experiences can inspire and motivate someone to contribute regardless of background. It is so often that we hear about a personality only when discussing scandals that it can be difficult to have a balanced viewpoint of the industry.

Additionally, I do not think that gaming and the technology of creating games are separable. The discussion of technology that is used to create video games serves to provide people with an interest, but a lack of understanding, with the knowledge to undertake their own projects. The understanding that Gamers and Game Creators are not distinct groups, but people with technical skills and without, can help to provide content for people that are simply lost in how they should produce something they care about.

I posit that true inclusivity is not achieved by favoring a group, but by giving people tools to work with. What are your thoughts on this topic?

 

[Vault101]

It is clear that websites spewing hate and vitriol in articles against "gamers" is not an effective means by which to change the minds of the few people who feel the need to lash out and harass. No one has ever changed their mind by being shamed and having hate directed at them (studies pending)p

I'm sorry I think you lost me there

I'm really..WHO is getting the hate here? with Sarkeesian and Quingate? you think the poor gamers are being hated? oh come the frigg on

if a critical look at video games and how it handles women/ect is "hate and vitriol" then I don't know what to say , you might not agree with say.sarkeesian but if you interpret her videos as "hate" against you then...well the problem is you (figurative you...not "you" you)...really

this really strikes me as disingenuous,

 

[Thaluikhain]

Yeah, I'm thinking if this legitimately was intended as a constructive discussion, the OP hasn't gotten off to a good start.

 

[Mikeybb]

As a gamer, non technically skilled that is, the primary method you have at your disposal is supporting products and news sites you believe work towards this goal.

Secondary to this is spreading the word of such support and the reasons for it.

I suppose you could as a tertiary method would be to attain skills so you could contribute either by modding or by actual development of a game.

 

[shrekfan246]

Much like a few of the other posts already made in this thread, I have to state that at no point have I ever felt that the games media has been "spewing hate and vitriol" in my direction, despite the fact that I'm a twenty-something white straight male who plays video games.

When people try to point out where websites like Polygon or Kotaku "demonize" male gamers, I only see legitimate articles calling for white males to recognize how pandered to we currently are, and quite frankly we are. There is no language at play in those articles that says male gamers are misogynists, there's no call for us to all collectively roll over and let teh wimminz and gays and everyone else take over, not even saying that you're necessarily a bad person if you don't realize it. But the fact of the matter is that "straight white male" is the default for most player characters these days, and that's something that could stand to be changed.

That having been said, I'd like games media to cover things like developer interviews more frequently simply on principle. That stuff is actual news for the gaming industry. I fail to see how it would really help the games industry/community be more inclusive, however. If the internet has been any indication over the past decade (or more), then people really don't need any actual excuses to be jerks, so when they're actually given an excuse they act even worse. And frankly I just don't know enough about "entering games development" to be able to even guess how it could be more inclusive, because it doesn't seem like it isn't at the moment, the only problem is that a majority of the time women don't seem to be taking the relevant courses. And, hey, I'm just some guy on the internet. If I could solve something like that, I wouldn't be posting here right now.

 

[Phasmal]

I always hear about this hate that straight white male gamers apparently get but I've yet to really see it.

Articles implying gaming culture needs to change are not hate. Do you guys really think we can stay this way forever?

And why is it the people who apparently are so sick of this are the ones who won't stop talking about it?

If you are a straight white male gamer, it is probably very easy to just play games and not care about gender, you're already pandering target number 1. You probably always will be, but if you're threatened by ANYONE else getting any attention from game developers, it's probably time to take a hard look in the mirror and figure out why that is.

 

[Erttheking]

Yeah, have to say as a heterosexual white male American with Anglo-Saxton heritage, I never really got the impression that I was heavily despised. The opposite really, it sometimes feels like everything is going out of its way to cater to me (Or at least tries to, problem is that it assumes I'm a douchebag). I dunno, every time online articles talk about abusive and toxic gamers, I just never made the mental connection that they were talking about me. I mean, I'm not the type of person who sends death threats to people who makes videos I don't like, why would I? And frankly I don't get why so many people think that saying that there's an unhealthy culture of abuse in video games is an attack on gamers. Oh come on guys, we all know it's true. My main method of gaming online for years was Xbox Live and now I've moved onto League of Legends, trust me, we got quite the underlayer of douche bags.

 

[DC_78]

Okay so the nice white cis males in the giant thread above just need to check their privilege. So what do you argue about the LGBTQ's and women in there? Now before everyone jumps onto the misogyny band wagon can we set some ground rules?

1) Hacking, doxxing, and threats are bad.

2)Males 13-40 are the majority no one argues and as the majority we are pandered to by AAA publishers. A Madden every year and COD etc.

3) A subsection of gamers, not just the above males, are horrid trolls who do bad things.

4) Inclusion for all in gaming is a good thing. No matter what.

5) Everyone that posts on here is pretty much anonymous. Unless you go digging into their profile looking for stuff.

6) Gamers did not hack, doxx, or threaten anyone. Individuals did. Gamers are not a monolithic entity.

No one argues these right?

I really never read any arguments in the above thread that the LGBTQ's are ruining gaming. Or that women are ruining gaming. Or minorities. Not enough women, LGBTQ, or minorities go into 3D modeling or story design to inject their perspective into the industry. Several developers have said that and then ask what can they do if they cannot find qualified, quality people. The folks up in the big thread? 4chan's /v/ helped on their own fund up a game jam just for this and didn't pull out when the people settled with the the other party. It could use your help. If nothing else comes out of this week's nonsense at least that has almost been funded. Please?

Everyone up there in the big thread loves games. No one up there wants to see anyone kicked out, marginalized, or shamed for being who or what they are. Games are the one place where everyone is equal no matter your size, speed, strength or what undies you wear. We are just sick of alot of different things in the journalism/indy dev side and literally how all of gamer culture has been treated over the last week. All of us have been told we do not matter. Gamers do not die. They respawn.

 

[the December King]

I dunno, every time online articles talk about abusive and toxic gamers, I just never made the mental connection that they were talking about me. I mean, I'm not the type of person who sends death threats to people who makes videos I don't like, why would I? And frankly I don't get why so many people think that saying that there's an unhealthy culture of abuse in video games is an attack on gamers.

It's funny, erttheking, because while I share many of your traits, I cannot help but take some of the criticisms personally, like it's an attack on me and all other gamers, instead of referring to actual toxic people. And, I also would never send death threats nor verbally abuse strangers on the internet... Maybe I just have a thin skin?

Anyways, add player options (and this can be from customizing your avatar on up to detailed integration of new, specific characters) for non "white hetero male adult" characters, into a good narrative, with a certain sensibility/equality to fanservice and a logical approach to dress and defensive elements as per the games' universe, and hey presto- everyone should be happy!

...

Well, I would be.

 

[Erttheking]

I dunno, every time online articles talk about abusive and toxic gamers, I just never made the mental connection that they were talking about me. I mean, I'm not the type of person who sends death threats to people who makes videos I don't like, why would I? And frankly I don't get why so many people think that saying that there's an unhealthy culture of abuse in video games is an attack on gamers.

It's funny, erttheking, because while I share many of your traits, I cannot help but take some of the criticisms personally, like it's an attack on me and all other gamers, instead of referring to actual toxic people. And, I also would never send death threats nor verbally abuse strangers on the internet... Maybe I just have a thin skin?

Anyways, add player options (and this can be from customizing your avatar on up to detailed integration of new, specific characters) for non "white hetero male adult" characters, into a good narrative, with a certain sensibility/equality to fanservice and a logical approach to dress and defensive elements as per the games' universe, and hey presto- everyone should be happy!

...

Well, I would be.

I know the feeling. I used to get pretty upset whenever people would criticize Halo, or Dark Souls II or RWBY on this website. I liked them, and I still do (Well I like the older Halo games, the story in the 4 was a massive drop in quality. Gameplay was fine but story...eh...) They weren't even insulting the fans (They saved that for the MLP threads) they just criticized the show and I took it a bit personally. Trust me, I know what it feels like to get upset by criticisms even when you shouldn't. It's hopefully something you and I can get over. (Or just take the coward's way out like I did and avoid all RWBY threads)

 

[DC_78]

I argue that, I hate Madded [cause why update rosters through a patch every year? EA needs their $60 games pushed out!], and the last CoD I actually liked was CoD 4 Modern Warfare.

I find it a bit insulting that you claim I'm being pandered to with these games. Next you will say because I'm a 14-40 year old White Male, I also drink Mountain Dew and eat Doritos exclusively.

Well we are dudebro gamers so I picked the easy targets as an example. Low hanging fruit I know, but it is late and I have been up for awhile.

Where did the Mountain Dew and Doritos thing come from anyway? That ad campaign for WOW a few years back? Didn't these websites like make money off that with ads? Man talking about journalistic ethics.

 

[ChaosBorne]

While i feel that there stands to be much improvement in the way women and minorities are represented in games, i don't like the way it's generally phrased so that the current generation of straight white males need to be responsible to bring those changes into effect simply because they aren't capable of doing so.
They lack the experiences of those groups and so unfortunately it falls to those groups (or more precise individuals from those groups) to rise up to the challenge and try to get into game development.
See it's easy to just complain about the way things are instead of working to change things.

There simply is no way that current developers are ever going to do every group justice if the 90% of all game developers are straight white males (or are so integrated into that culture that they have lost their ethnic identity as it were)

So allow me to recap, aren't happy with the way developers are representing your "group" in a game? become a game developer yourself and fix it, don't ***** about it because that accomplishes nothing.

Ofcourse that's just my opinion on the matter, i just don't think it's fair to blame current developers when all they are doing is writing what they know, they lack the experiences of other groups therefore they cannot accurately depict them.

 

[Artaneius]

I always hear about this hate that straight white male gamers apparently get but I've yet to really see it.

Articles implying gaming culture needs to change are not hate. Do you guys really think we can stay this way forever?

Yes we can. It is the right of any culture no matter what anyone else thinks to do as they please as long as it's not breaking the law of whatever government they live under. The only reason why people seem to think gaming culture is an exception is because it's an "entertainment" culture. None of you would dare go to Saudi Arabia and demand equal rights to woman because you know you would be shot the moment you say it. Don't expect cultures to change willingly. If gaming culture wants to change then it will change. If it doesn't leave them alone. Don't harass people to act like a spoiled brat wanting change. Bad illegal stuff wouldn't be happening if people left them alone in the first place. You can't put yourself on a soap box, crying innocent when it's obvious to the majority of the community that your just harassing the status quo for your own agenda. This isn't WWII era America. Preaching about equality isn't going to bring tears into anyone's eyes. No one except those affected are going to lose any sleep over this. We live in a different world now with the rise of the internet. People don't care about others anymore and its time to adapt to it.

 

[Phasmal]

I always hear about this hate that straight white male gamers apparently get but I've yet to really see it.

Articles implying gaming culture needs to change are not hate. Do you guys really think we can stay this way forever?

Yes we can. It is the right of any culture no matter what anyone else thinks to do as they please as long as it's not breaking the law of whatever government they live under. The only reason why people seem to think gaming culture is an exception is because it's an "entertainment" culture. None of you would dare go to Saudi Arabia and demand equal rights to woman because you know you would be shot the moment you say it. Don't expect cultures to change willingly. If gaming culture wants to change then it will change. If it doesn't leave them alone. Don't harass people to act like a spoiled brat wanting change. Bad illegal stuff wouldn't be happening if people left them alone in the first place. You can't put yourself on a soap box, crying innocent when it's obvious to the majority of the community that your just harassing the status quo for your own agenda. This isn't WWII era America. Preaching about equality isn't going to bring tears into anyone's eyes. No one except those affected are going to lose any sleep over this. We live in a different world now with the rise of the internet. People don't care about others anymore and its time to adapt to it.

Sorry, who am I harassing? Or are you just randomly going off on one?

Last time I checked, gamer culture included me too, and loads of other women. I'm not `going into` anywhere. I've been here all along. This is part of the problem.

Seeing as we're around the same age (if your profile is correct, I'm a little older but we'll roll with it), we've probably been gaming around the same amount of time (assuming you've gamed your entire life)- what makes gaming belong more to you than to me?

That was kind of my point. Everybody has a say in it, we can't stay the way things are now forever. Things change, and we have to change with them. Collectively we can scream and cry if we don't want to change. Someone will look like a brat, but I'm pretty sure it's not me.

 

[Artaneius]

I always hear about this hate that straight white male gamers apparently get but I've yet to really see it.

Articles implying gaming culture needs to change are not hate. Do you guys really think we can stay this way forever?

Yes we can. It is the right of any culture no matter what anyone else thinks to do as they please as long as it's not breaking the law of whatever government they live under. The only reason why people seem to think gaming culture is an exception is because it's an "entertainment" culture. None of you would dare go to Saudi Arabia and demand equal rights to woman because you know you would be shot the moment you say it. Don't expect cultures to change willingly. If gaming culture wants to change then it will change. If it doesn't leave them alone. Don't harass people to act like a spoiled brat wanting change. Bad illegal stuff wouldn't be happening if people left them alone in the first place. You can't put yourself on a soap box, crying innocent when it's obvious to the majority of the community that your just harassing the status quo for your own agenda. This isn't WWII era America. Preaching about equality isn't going to bring tears into anyone's eyes. No one except those affected are going to lose any sleep over this. We live in a different world now with the rise of the internet. People don't care about others anymore and its time to adapt to it.

Sorry, who am I harassing? Or are you just randomly going off on one?

Last time I checked, gamer culture included me too, and loads of other women. I'm not `going into` anywhere. I've been here all along. This is part of the problem.

Seeing as we're around the same age (if you're profile is correct, I'm a little older but we'll roll with it), we've probably been gaming around the same amount of time (assuming you've gamed your entire life)- what makes gaming belong more to you than to me?

That was kind of my point. Everybody has a say in it, we can't stay the way things are now forever. Things change, and we have to change with them. Collectively we can scream and cry if we don't want to change. Someone will look like a brat, but I'm pretty sure it's not me.

The culture and the communities that make it will decide to change or not. That's not for individuals to speak up and decide for them. If they choose to change, then change will happen. If they choose not to change, well that means it says the same and that's that. The harassing part comes from constantly bringing it up when it's obvious that no means no. If the culture has constantly shown that it's not willing to change, then leave them be. Stop bringing it up.

Let the culture decide when and what changes it wants to make as a whole. Not force it. It's funny how people say gamers are immature, but honestly I would say the ones who constantly bring up things over and over are really the ones immature. It shows they feel entitled to something. Living in a world where everyone feels entitled is a sad world indeed.

 

[Phasmal]

The culture and the communities that make it will decide to change or not. That's not for individuals to speak up and decide for them. If they choose to change, then change will happen. If they choose not to change, well that means it says the same and that's that. The harassing part comes from constantly bringing it up when it's obvious that no means no. If the culture has constantly shown that it's not willing to change, then leave them be. Stop bringing it up.

Let the culture decide when and what changes it wants to make as a whole. Not force it.

Basically `shut up and stop talking about it`?

Wow, so fresh. Very new.

Hm, let me think about it... no.

Hey dude, if I don't have a say in whether things will change, neither do you. So you can follow your own advice. I'll go my way, you go yours. All the best.

 

[Rahkshi500]

I dunno, every time online articles talk about abusive and toxic gamers, I just never made the mental connection that they were talking about me. I mean, I'm not the type of person who sends death threats to people who makes videos I don't like, why would I? And frankly I don't get why so many people think that saying that there's an unhealthy culture of abuse in video games is an attack on gamers.

Mainly because the unhealthy culture of abuse isn't something that pops out of thin air; it comes from people within that culture. Plus, it's easy to paint everyone with the same brush, especially since people can easily make generalizations instead of pointing at specific targets.

I know the feeling. I used to get pretty upset whenever people would criticize Halo, or Dark Souls II or RWBY on this website. I liked them, and I still do (Well I like the older Halo games, the story in the 4 was a massive drop in quality. Gameplay was fine but story...eh...) They weren't even insulting the fans (They saved that for the MLP threads) they just criticized the show and I took it a bit personally. Trust me, I know what it feels like to get upset by criticisms even when you shouldn't. It's hopefully something you and I can get over. (Or just take the coward's way out like I did and avoid all RWBY threads)

I feel the same way as well. Of course, it's not something that always happens, and there will be moments where some people do go beyond criticism of the thing itself and will attack those who enjoy or support that thing. Not everyone does that, mind you, but it does happen sometimes from some people.