DNF Will Be Better Than Alice

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EzraPound

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EDIT: Since many people seem to be quizzical as to why I'm choosing to compare these two games, let me point out that 1) they're both long overdue sequels to games that debuted on PC and were created by some of the foremost talents of the formative FPS era (American McGee and George Broussard) and 2) like Portal 2 and Mortal Kombat, they're both coming out the same day. Also, I've read a lot of posts by Escapists disgruntled by the DNF demo indicating they're likely to pick up Madness Returns instead. American Duke Nukem Returns Forever, anyone?

Amid all of the paranoia that DNF will flop because its outdated PAX East demo--gasp--isn't one hundred per cent polished, and borrows a few elements from other popular first-person shooters (as if design that wasn't arcane is a bad thing), it seems like a lot of people have begun adjusting their gaming itinerary to include Alice: Madness Returns at the expense of Duke. Coming from someone whose played Duke Nukem 3D, followed the press surrounding DNF extensively, and played every game American McGee has made since his days as an upstart level designer at id, let me give you some advice: this isn't a very good idea.

First, there's the issue of whose behind each game. Gearbox has--since their work on Half-Life Opposing Force; itself an acclaimed expansion pack--put out one workmanlike shooter after another, from James Bond: Nightfire to the Brothers in Arms series to Borderlands. These are mostly good games--so when Randy Pitchford states of Duke's critical response that "you're going to see a lot of 8s and 9s" and even "some 7s" I have no reason not to believe him--Gearbox has already proven themselves capable of producing shooters in the upper stratum of the genre. What one shouldn't do, however, is expect Duke to change the world--that kind of hype tends to lead to a letdown. In my opinion, DNF will probably be one of Gearbox's best offerings yet--provided we don't extinguish our enjoyment of it by expecting it to be, say, better than Borderlands (also, the graphics in this game aren't "old": they look fine, and the DNF team has already clarified that barring one joke everything is circa '09 or after).

American McGee is another story. He's the lead designer of Madness Returns, and since the original Alice--which was a visually creative game that had huge problems when it came to enemy AI and some unfortunate jumping puzzles--his C.V. has expanded to include Scrapland, Bad Day L.A., and Grimm. To call these games mediocre would be generous: Scrapland is probably the best of the bunch--a so-so action-adventure title about robots with some truly terrible on-foot sections--but Bad Day L.A. is truly awful; an undercooked romp through modern-day Los Angeles that's political commentary couldn't conceal its paper-thin gameplay, and Grimm was similarly flaccid; an episodic game that featured gameplay that when it wasn't aping Katamari Damacy seemed like it was taken out of a handbook on 3D platformers. Bad Day L.A. received 28 on metacritic. Grimm received a middling 6s--not great scores, given his profile and the inflated nature of game scores.

Above all, if I could cite one problem with American McGee's games, it's that they always seem to preference flashy visual design and highbrow artistic concepts over anything resembling enjoyability, as if "gameplay" were a bad word. So it didn't really surprise me--given his role in the new Alice--to read this excerpt of an advance review from Official PS Magazine, giving the game 5/10:

A poor pace potholes the proceedings. The game lingers on its jumping puzzles, reveling in presenting us with open vistas that require navigation across partially invisible pathways, weighted platforms, billowing air vents, and ever-shifting floors. With this limited vocabulary, Alice chugs and chugs and chugs. Timing challenges are added and overdone, and some are additionally hampered by the need to shoot targets with a Pepper Grinder gun saddled with a manual aim system that is imprecise at best. The game tops off its overlong, overly gimmick-reliant platform navigation with heroine-crushing blocks, spiked platforms, and flame spitters. In the end, we?re not jumping and soaring across Wonderland but simply grinding it out.
. . .McGee's descent from industry golden boy to the routine co-signer of games that rehash blasé FPS and platformer elements probably explains why his name--for a first--wasn't included in the new Alice's title. I hope Alice does well--McGee has always had potential if nothing else--and I may even buy it, but if you pre-order looking for a replacement to the likely success of Duke Nukem Forever you may end up very, very disappointed.
 

Elamdri

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EzraPound said:
Amid all of the paranoia that DNF will flop because its outdated PAX East demo--gasp--isn't one hundred per cent polished, and borrows a few elements from other popular first-person shooters (as if design that wasn't arcane is a bad thing), it seems like a lot of people have begun adjusting their gaming itinerary to include Alice: Madness Returns at the expense of Duke. Coming from someone whose played Duke Nukem 3D, followed the press surrounding DNF extensively, and played every game American McGee has made since his days as an upstart level designer at id, let me give you some advice: this isn't a very good idea.

First, there's the issue of whose behind each game. Gearbox has--since their work on Half-Life Opposing Force; itself an acclaimed expansion pack--put out one workmanlike shooter after another, from James Bond: Nightfire to the Brothers in Arms series to Borderlands. These are mostly good games--so when Randy Pitchford states of Duke's critical response that "you're going to see a lot of 8s and 9s" and even "some 7s" I have no reason not to believe him--Gearbox has already proven themselves capable of producing shooters in the upper stratum of the genre. What one shouldn't do, however, is expect Duke to change the world--that kind of hype tends to lead to a letdown. In my opinion, DNF will probably be one of Gearbox's best offerings yet--provided we don't extinguish our enjoyment of it by expecting it to be, say, better than Borderlands (also, the graphics in this game aren't "old": they look fine, and the DNF team has already clarified that barring one joke everything is circa '09 or after).

American McGee is another story. He's the lead designer of Madness Returns, and since the original Alice--which was a visually creative game that had huge problems when it came to enemy AI and some unfortunate jumping puzzles--his C.V. has expanded to include Scrapland, Bad Day L.A., and Grimm. To call these games mediocre would be generous: Scrapland is probably the best of the bunch--a so-so action-adventure title about robots with some truly terrible on-foot sections--but Bad Day L.A. is truly awful; an undercooked romp through modern-day Los Angeles that's political commentary couldn't conceal its paper-thin gameplay, and Grimm was similarly flaccid; an episodic game that featured gameplay that when it wasn't aping Katamari Damacy seemed like it was taken out of a handbook on 3D platformers. Bad Day L.A. received 28 on metacritic. Grimm received a middling 6s--not great scores, given his profile and the inflated nature of game scores.

Above all, if I could cite one problem with American McGee's games, it's that they always seem to preference flashy visual design and highbrow artistic concepts over anything resembling enjoyability, as if "gameplay" were a bad word. So it didn't really surprise me--given his role in the new Alice--to read this excerpt of an advance review from Official PS Magazine:

A poor pace potholes the proceedings. The game lingers on its jumping puzzles, reveling in presenting us with open vistas that require navigation across partially invisible pathways, weighted platforms, billowing air vents, and ever-shifting floors. With this limited vocabulary, Alice chugs and chugs and chugs. Timing challenges are added and overdone, and some are additionally hampered by the need to shoot targets with a Pepper Grinder gun saddled with a manual aim system that is imprecise at best. The game tops off its overlong, overly gimmick-reliant platform navigation with heroine-crushing blocks, spiked platforms, and flame spitters. In the end, we?re not jumping and soaring across Wonderland but simply grinding it out.
. . .McGee's descent from industry golden boy to the routine co-signer of games that rehash blasé FPS and platformer elements probably explains why his name--for a first--wasn't included in the new Alice's title. I hope Alice does well--McGee has always had potential if nothing else--and I may even buy it, but pre-order looking for a replacement to the likely success of Duke Nukem Forever you may end up very, very disappointed.
For me, the think that ruined the Duke Nukem Forever Demo was being restricted to only two guns. It's like, I want to use the fun guns, but I don't want to get rid of the sniper rifle and shotgun to play with the fun weapons.

I fail to understand what the hell is so bad about wanting to tote around all 10 weapons on my back. It works for Gordon Freeman.

I could even live with the regenerating health, even though I'm not a fan. But I want ALL the weapons so I can have FUN.

EDIT: I'll still probably get the game, but I've waited 12 years, I can wait a few months for the price to tank down to 30 bucks.

EDIT 2: I've not really played or ever cared about any of the American McGee stuff, for me it's irrelevant to the DNF issue.
 

Project_Xii

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Those aren't the only 2 games coming out, or to have come out recently. Between LA Noire, Witcher 2, inFamous 2, Red Faction, FEAR 3, and Dungeon Siege 3, I'm sure we'll all find something there to fill the void should Alice or DNF fail.

Kind of two weird games to compare anyway. Anyone who expects Duke Nuke to be AAA gold is taking a huge risk, that's for sure.
 

Woodsey

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"(as if design that wasn't arcane is a bad thing)"

I think you DNF guys want to get your story straight. Anyway, the demo was abysmal, and the only review of Alice I've seen so far has been bad. Randy Pitchford has also stated: "Scores for DNF won't matter, people will buy it anyway." This commonly translates to: "ffffuuuuuuu-".

I read this today and found it quite interesting: http://www.gamefront.com/gearboxs-randy-pitchford-reviewers-who-dont-like-duke-nukem-forever-will-be-held-accountable/

Anyway, if they're both crap (seems likely), then why you're encouraging people to buy one over the other at all seems pointless.
 

rockyoumonkeys

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They're both gonna be pretty bad.

I played a bit of the DNF demo this morning, and my interest in buying the game pretty much vanished.

I played quite a bit of the old Alice PC game, and while the atmosphere was amazing, the voice acting was great, and the concept in general was fascinating, the game itself was unplayable bullshit.
 

Vanguard_Ex

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Allow me to put forward this:
Games being 'better' or 'worse' is a case of opinion. /thread.
 

Elamdri

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Project_Xii said:
Kind of two weird games to compare anyway. Anyone who expects Duke Nuke to be AAA gold is taking a huge risk, that's for sure.
I wasn't expecting Duke Nukem to be GOOD, I was expecting it to be FUN. But it's not fun, it's boring.

I was kinda hoping it would be like Bulletstorm, but better. But from what I've played of the demo, Bulletstorm blows DNF out of the water in terms of fun.

And I still would like to throw this out there, but WHY the hell won't FPS games let me just have ALL the weapons?
 

Elamdri

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Vanguard_Ex said:
Games being 'better' or 'worse' is a case of opinion. /thread.
I get sick of seeing this. You may or may not like a game, but I do not believe that matters of "better" or "worse" are a matter of opinion. Some games are BETTER than other games. You may like a bad game, but to say it's better than a good game is wrong.

It's like saying you like Nickelback and dislike Jimi Hendrix. Your taste is your opinion, but the fact that you like Nickelback does not change the fact that Nickelback is not as good as Jimi Hendrix.
 

Zeetchmen

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Regardless of what sells, Alice seems to be taking on a new aestheic over Call of Duke: Forever Warfare
 

Vanguard_Ex

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Elamdri said:
Vanguard_Ex said:
Games being 'better' or 'worse' is a case of opinion. /thread.
I get sick of seeing this. You may or may not like a game, but I do not believe that matters of "better" or "worse" are a matter of opinion. Some games are BETTER than other games. You may like a bad game, but to say it's better than a good game is wrong.
Exactly, it is wrong because it's all a matter of opinion. Don't get so riled, man.
 

DustyDrB

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I loved the gameplay of the original Alice, and loved the concept and visual design even more.
I think you're underrating the power of a strong visual aesthetic (I despised a lot of the gameplay in the God of War series but still generally like the games), especially these days when most games have such an uninspired design. It can't make a game great by itself, but it's a major contributor of greatness.

And I'm not getting Duke Nukem Forever, and never planned on it. Why? I just don't like first person shooters. It was never a contest.
 

Renogod

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rockyoumonkeys said:
They're both gonna be pretty bad.

I played a bit of the DNF demo this morning, and my interest in buying the game pretty much vanished.

I played quite a bit of the old Alice PC game, and while the atmosphere was amazing, the voice acting was great, and the concept in general was fascinating, the game itself was unplayable bullshit.
My thoughts exactly and iI canceled, my DNF preorder the moment i got my hands on the demo, no wonder they held off till June 3rd.

But to be perfectly honest both games are respective to your preferences, and as for me i care for neither.
 

Elamdri

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Vanguard_Ex said:
Elamdri said:
Vanguard_Ex said:
Games being 'better' or 'worse' is a case of opinion. /thread.
I get sick of seeing this. You may or may not like a game, but I do not believe that matters of "better" or "worse" are a matter of opinion. Some games are BETTER than other games. You may like a bad game, but to say it's better than a good game is wrong.
Exactly, it is wrong because it's all a matter of opinion. Don't get so riled, man.
(Sorry, didn't mean to harp on you, it's just everyone does this nowadays and it pisses me off. It's like "It's my opinion so you can't criticize me" which is BS.)

While taste is a matter of opinion, quality is a quantifiable factor.
 

Vanguard_Ex

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Elamdri said:
Vanguard_Ex said:
Elamdri said:
Vanguard_Ex said:
Games being 'better' or 'worse' is a case of opinion. /thread.
I get sick of seeing this. You may or may not like a game, but I do not believe that matters of "better" or "worse" are a matter of opinion. Some games are BETTER than other games. You may like a bad game, but to say it's better than a good game is wrong.
Exactly, it is wrong because it's all a matter of opinion. Don't get so riled, man.
(Sorry, didn't mean to harp on you, it's just everyone does this nowadays and it pisses me off. It's like "It's my opinion so you can't criticize me" which is BS.)

While taste is a matter of opinion, quality is a quantifiable factor.
I understand, I share the same kind of contempt for the old shield of opinion. Maybe I should establish myself better here.
I don't believe the OP can just say 'this game will be better'. True, it may be better made, and better in every aspect of design. However, I feel that when it gets down to generally better or worse with special consideration on fun (which I assume the OP meant), you can't really proclaim one to be better as a matter of fact.
 

Elamdri

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Vanguard_Ex said:
I understand, I share the same kind of contempt for the old shield of opinion. Maybe I should establish myself better here.
I don't believe the OP can just say 'this game will be better'. True, it may be better made, and better in every aspect of design. However, I feel that when it gets down to generally better or worse with special consideration on fun (which I assume the OP meant), you can't really proclaim one to be better as a matter of fact.
Ah, ok, My apologies.
 

Vanguard_Ex

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Elamdri said:
Vanguard_Ex said:
I understand, I share the same kind of contempt for the old shield of opinion. Maybe I should establish myself better here.
I don't believe the OP can just say 'this game will be better'. True, it may be better made, and better in every aspect of design. However, I feel that when it gets down to generally better or worse with special consideration on fun (which I assume the OP meant), you can't really proclaim one to be better as a matter of fact.
Ah, ok, My apologies.
Not at all bro
 

vrbtny

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I think everyone wants them to be as equally orgasmically-awesome as each other. Seriously? Why does there have to be conflict? Why can't they both just be awesome.

Accept it, it's my opinion, so don't criticizes it

Italics indicate a sorta sarcasm to often used sayings which are used in as a get out by some people.
 

loc978

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What is this? I don't even...

Two rather different genres of playstyle, completely different aesthetic genres... why would anyone compare the two? They're completely irrelevant to one another.

Qualifications: I own and love both Duke Nukem 3D and American McGee's Alice. First played 'em when they were new, last played through both of them within the last two years, and they each have their own charm.

The new Alice's gameplay may be a fast-paced, action-y departure from the original, but the gameplay was never really the big draw with that game. Hell, DNF's gameplay is a modernized departure from the original... but I'll forgive it the regenerating health just for the comedy.
 

MarsProbe

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Why DNF and Alice: Madness Returns? Is there some longstanding rivarly between these two games that I've somehow missed it spanning many millennia?

Next comparison: shortbread vs wagon wheels. Why, because they're both biscuits of course.