Do bronies challenge traditional masculine values?

[Abomination]

Of ALL the bronies that are publicised. Notice that you are in fact saying ALL and not most, or the average, you are saying ALL. Of course, even if you had been saying average you'd still be lying since, once again, you are making baseless generalisations.

Quote that line in full or not at all.

Of all the bronies that are publicized and the type of people who attended Pony/Bronycon I can say with full certainty that the average male there did not exhibit particular signs of masculinity.

It isn't lying and it isn't baseless.

 

[Abomination]

Of all the bronies that are publicized and the type of people who attended Pony/Bronycon I can say with full certainty that the average male there did not exhibit particular signs of masculinity.

It isn't lying and it isn't baseless.

You know, ... the ones who are publicized and attend cons, are not necessarily a representative sample of bronies as a whole.

Just sayin'

Of course not, but we are talking about a group of individuals who are nerding it up over a program aimed at young girls. Since there's no way of accurately recording the "manliness" quotient of every member one needs to resort to speculation and hypothesis. We can say with confidence that the average brony will not be as masculine as the average male.

This isn't a bad thing, it's just a thing.

 

[Eddie the head]

Of ALL the bronies that are publicised. Notice that you are in fact saying ALL and not most, or the average, you are saying ALL. Of course, even if you had been saying average you'd still be lying since, once again, you are making baseless generalisations.

That's what we call quote mining. You deliberately cut off the quote to try and change what the guy said. I don't care what side of the debate you are on. That's an underhanded thing to do.

 

[Simonism451]

No, they don't. Bronies (like huge parts of nerd culture in general) challenge traditional adult values .
Face it, no matter how competent your show about talking horses is at teaching children about friendship, it's not exactly Dostoyevski.

 

[xplosive59]

I do enjoy the Idea Channel alot but they are really off on this one. Because no, it's a cartoon not some kind of political movement. It isn't even as popular as people would have you believe or known to those who don't spend alot of time on the net.

 

[xplosive59]

Nobody says liking My Little Pony is demeaning. I enjoy the show a lot and have watched every episode, but I don't think me doing so challenges what it means to be male.

The brony "movement" is just a fan base with varying degrees of obsession, like trekkies, furries, browncoats, otacons or whatever they're called. They're not special, they're just a thing.

This guy gets it. Bronies are not the first obsessive fan group and they are not the last, in real life people either dislike bronies or have no strong feelings what so ever.

 

[C. Cain]

Of course not, but we are talking about a group of individuals who are nerding it up over a program aimed at young girls. Since there's no way of accurately recording the "manliness" quotient of every member one needs to resort to speculation and hypothesis. We can say with confidence that the average brony will not be as masculine as the average male.

This isn't a bad thing, it's just a thing.

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You even admit that you cannot measure the average manliness of every member and yet you claim, in the very next sentence no less, that we can say with confidence that your hasty generalisations are true.

And while we are at it - may I suggest that you define your terms first? What constitutes manliness in your book? If I recall correctly you said earlier that a 'masculine' man who also happens to be a brony challenges the notion of masculinity on an individual basis. Therefore I have to assume that being a brony is per definitionYour definition. Or rather what I deduce might be part of your definition. a trait that somehow conflicts with masculinity. Which, in turn, would make your previous statement (i.e. "We can say with confidence that the average brony will not be as masculine as the average male.") true. Having said that, however, it'd also make it a tautology and therefore utterly useless.

 

[Lilani]

I feel like the question "Do bronies challenge traditional masculine values?" is running under the assumption that a "normal" male would ONLY engage in traditional "male" activities. What are things involved in masculinity? A desire of physical and sexual dominance? Placing significant value on physical strength and virility? Having a knowledge of mechanical tools and devices?

And then, because it's just as important to this question, what are traditional feminine values? Fine motor skills (being able to thread a needle, sewing small stitches consistently, etc)? Placing significant value on sexuality and seductiveness? Placing significant value on taking on and completing domestic tasks (raising kids, cleaning the house, etc)?

I think to say that "normal" men NEVER engage in feminine activities and "normal" women NEVER engage in masculine activities is silly. I know my boyfriend does dishes at his apartment and cooks food, and I like to exercise and I know how to hang drywall. So in order to be a functional and independent human being, there needs to be a bit of overlap on the part of both genders.

And everything else there that isn't a task is something either the person takes on themselves or is a part of their personality. Yes a stereotypical male trait is a desire for sexual dominance, but that isn't always the case. In fact, in my experience guys who place too much value here tend to be manipulative jerkwads who end up in prison at some point. Physical strength? Well yes some men are "born with it" more and you can build yourself up if you aren't, but working out is a lifestyle choice and not all men do it, and most of society doesn't care if a guy works out. Well yes if he weighs 700 pounds there might be some judgment, but you don't have to be totally ripped just to get by. And the same is on the female side: you choose to have kids, choose to do things like sew and knit, and sexuality and how much they put on display depends on their desire for such attention and level of extroversion.

Now of all those things, I can't really spot one among the male camp that would prohibit the enjoyment of something like My Little Pony. The thing that is most feminine about it is the art style. Otherwise, MLP is sort of a masculine show, really. Ponies with superpowers that fight evil and mischief when it comes knocking, standing up for their friends, defending their homeland, helping each other grow stronger as people (er, ponies).

Yes men aren't the target demographic, but the target demographic of the Ninja Turtles and Transformers wasn't girls and the shows weren't feminine at all yet nobody raises an eyebrow at girls who love them. Perhaps grown women, but I think it's generally known at this point that even adults can love cartoons.

So, yeah. I think the reason so many have flipped their shit over men liking this when nobody really did so when the PowerPuff Girls was big is because MLP is more overtly feminine in the art style, and the age of the men is a little up there. And I think the explanation for that is simply because the show is structured like a cartoon from the 90s. A regular cast of characters all with their own personalities and flaws, overcoming life and other obstacles while learning valuable moral lessons along the way. And who grew up in the 90s? Why the 20 and 30-somethings of today. So it stands to reason a show of that format would catch the attention of that generation. It would be like if a flawless reboot of the Flintstones was launched. The 60s and 70s kids would be all over that show.

 

[Lilani]

Do females who like MLP conform to traditional feminine values?

Sure. Ponies never got the same flak as Barbie, no body image issues, but we are looking at Hasbro's premiere pink aisle brand here. The adult equivalent would be romantic comedies and chick lit.

Take the element of "ponies" out of the show for a moment, and what do you have? A cast of characters who lead normal day-to-day lives, but who also have their own sets of superpowers that allow them to fight evil and mischief. All of the characters are single, and while they don't seem to detest the opposite sex they certainly aren't spending all of their time seeking them out, and it's pretty clear even if they settled down for a domestic life their dedication to their duty as heroes would come first. These characters all have their own personalities and flaws, and when they aren't fighting evil, solving mysteries, or helping others who are in trouble they're pushing each other and teaching each other lessons so that they can grow to become better people and friends.

That doesn't sound overtly feminine to me. In fact, that sounds rather like Power Rangers, or any other show from the 90s with heroes that can beat a villain and teach you a lesson about life in 22 minutes flat. Does covering all of that in a pink and pastel varnish really change any of those things? Chick lit isn't feminine because most of the people and stuff in it is pink. Chick lit is feminine because the topics and themes it deals with are almost exclusively feminine in nature. Relationships, domesticity, sexual submission. I don't think those things are really covered in MLP, at least not to a point where it can be argued that is an integral part of the show's theme.

 

[Abomination]

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

That particular scenario only applies when you are trying to prove the existence of something, not when you're examining the traits of a group.

You even admit that you cannot measure the average manliness of every member and yet you claim, in the very next sentence no less, that we can say with confidence that your hasty generalisations are true.

They are hardly 'hasty'. The stereotypical brony is not a masculine fellow, they also aren't your average fellow.

And while we are at it - may I suggest that you define your terms first? What constitutes manliness in your book? If I recall correctly you said earlier that a 'masculine' man who also happens to be a brony challenges the notion of masculinity on an individual basis. Therefore I have to assume that being a brony is per definitionYour definition. Or rather what I deduce might be part of your definition. a trait that somehow conflicts with masculinity. Which, in turn, would make your previous statement (i.e. "We can say with confidence that the average brony will not be as masculine as the average male.") true. Having said that, however, it'd also make it a tautology and therefore utterly useless.

When dealing with averages a tautology is not utterly useless, especially when more elaborate sources of evidence are not available.

Being a fan of My Little Pony is the opposite of a masculine thing, ergo we can confidently say that it will tend to attract less masculine members. The same can be applied to cartoons attracting children - certainly there will still be an adult or young adult following but the most common demographic is children. I want to provide more examples as to how stereotypical bronies are less masculine than average but such examples will naturally offend or upset.

As for the definition of masculinity I assumed we were talking about the traditional version of masculinity: high physical development, no-nonsense attitude and avoiding expressions of emotion. Hell, Ron Swanson is the poster-boy of masculinity.

 

[Lilani]

Why is it demeaning to like something made specifically for girls. The show has great animation, voice acting and writing.
It's no different from someone watching Transformers, Thundercats or Gravity Falls.

I saw someone compare it to watching puppies play for half an hour.

This is why we can't have anything nice.

Oh dear. I apologize for moving into triple-post territory. My last reply for a while, I promise!

Anyway, from what I've been able to gather, something that is targeted toward a male demographic is considered to be "gender-neutral." Legos, Transformers, Power Rangers, TMNT...all of these things are targeted toward a male demographic, but it is still "okay" for girls to like it. And the same goes for the toys and other things involved with the marketing of these things (action figures, building blocks and sets, cars, etc). You build things and rescue things and go on adventures, and those are all alright things for girls to do. This is because...well just because, really. This might become clearer after my next point.

But what are feminine toys? Kitchen sets, baby dolls, regular houses, dolls you can dress up with hair you can braid. And what are girls expected to do with these things? Cook dinner, care for babies, keep an orderly house, and dress things up to look pretty.

So the way I see it, the assessment that "boys toys" are gender-neutral is a fairly accurate one. These days, both men and women are expected to be just as capable when it comes to dealing with mechanical things and being heroic when the time comes. But, for some reason only toys for boys cover these themes. Girl's toys don't really help you do anything in life except learn to be a housewife (or house-husband) and doll yourself up to impress others. While those aren't totally useless kills, it's rather irreprehensable to raise a child to only value those things. In society we can accept a person who shuns a domestic life to forward their success, but there is a certain amount of shame put upon people who put aside personal success to complete domestic tasks. I personally don't think that's a shameful life to live, but I think it's safe to say most people don't wish for their children from day one to become housewives.

Considering how long toys have been like this, I think it's only perfectly natural that the shame that comes with focusing exclusively on domestic tasks has come to taint all things geared toward girls, whether or not they are truly like other girl's toys (see my other two posts above for more on that).

So TL;DR: Things geared toward girls tend to not just be feminine in nature but domestic, and because of perceived gender-roles to focus exclusively on domestic skills is still alright for girls but is downright shameful for boys. As a society we are ready to accept that women can be as successful as men, however unfortunately we aren't ready to see how unfair and conter-intuitive it is to pile all of these domestic expectations upon girls from such a young age. The problem only becomes visible to us when those domestic expectations are piled onto boys.

 

[Hazy]

I'm fine with bronies, I just wish some of them would stop jamming it down everybody's throats. I mainly find it hypocritical that many of them preach love and tolerance, but flame anyone who disagrees with them to hell and back.

 

[Hagi]

So TL;DR: Things geared toward girls tend to not just be feminine in nature but domestic, and because of perceived gender-roles to focus exclusively on domestic skills is still alright for girls but is downright shameful for boys. As a society we are ready to accept that women can be as successful as men, however unfortunately we aren't ready to see how unfair and conter-intuitive it is to pile all of these domestic expectations upon girls from such a young age. The problem only becomes visible to us when those domestic expectations are piled onto boys.

I think that probably differs greatly based on where you are. I can't speak for all societies but I do know that here in the Netherlands it's completely expected for men and boys to take up their fair share of domestic work.

A failure to do so is shameful. An incapability to cook and clean is considered childish and seen as a sign that the only woman you should be spending time with is your mother.

Which isn't to say everything is fine and dandy, plenty of problems still to be found. But I do think that on this point, men taking up responsibilities traditionally considered feminine just like women have taken up responsibilities traditionally considered masculine, a lot of improvement has already happened, is still happening and will continue to happen.

 

[Lilani]

I think that probably differs greatly based on where you are. I can't speak for all societies but I do know that here in the Netherlands it's completely expected for men and boys to take up their fair share of domestic work.

A failure to do so is shameful. An incapability to cook and clean is considered childish and seen as a sign that the only woman you should be spending time with is your mother.

Which isn't to say everything is fine and dandy, plenty of problems still to be found. But I do think that on this point, men taking up responsibilities traditionally considered feminine just like women have taken up responsibilities traditionally considered masculine, a lot of improvement has already happened, is still happening and will continue to happen.

In most parts of America, men are also expected to take up their fair share of domestic work. While there are parts of the country that encourage the idea of the wife being the housekeeper, most of the country sees that approach to familial dynamics as backwards and archaic, and even shameful.

However, when it comes to children, it is still overwhelmingly acceptable for girls to exclusively play with girl toys. And as I said, girls toys only focus on domestic tasks and personal beauty. So most of a girl's life she is expected to perform on-par with men and share those tasks with them...except in that phase of growing from toddlerhood to about adolescence. During that time, it is perfectly acceptable (and in some ways expected) for the girl to be focused purely upon "girly" domestic tasks. This expectation transcends familial and domestic setups. Even couples who split domestic tasks right down the middle will load down their girls with exclusively girly toys without so much as batting an eye. And it is arguable that this phase of growing-up has the greatest affect on what they will value as an adult.

The shame associated with domesticity doesn't come from the domesticity itself, but rather a focus on it that is exclusive to everything else. Girl's toys exclusively focus on domestic tasks, and so they are considered shameful for boys to use. So that's the point I'm trying to make: While most of America expects women and men to share domestic tasks, there is still a phase of life girls go through in which focusing exclusively on being a housewife is perfectly acceptable. A phase that boys also go through, but are (if it is at all possible) they are prohibited from focusing so exclusively on domesticity.

 

[somonels]

Umm, why not?
Looking it as a social acceptability struggle they do challenge the traits that might accompany masculinity and get labeled as weirdos. some of them do this intentionally, as did the glam rockers three decades ago; more of them are or were hipsters or just fad followers; many like the series and don't care much.

I'm fine with bronies, I just wish some of them would stop jamming it down everybody's throats. I mainly find it hypocritical that many of them preach love and tolerance, but flame anyone who disagrees with them to hell and back.

And that is pretty much what's become of the Web 2.0.

 

[C. Cain]

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

That particular scenario only applies when you are trying to prove the existence of something, not when you're examining the traits of a group.

So traits are not 'something' then? Either way - It's an appeal to ignorance regardless.
What you're essentially saying is that trait A of group 1 has not been proven true and must therefore be false.

You even admit that you cannot measure the average manliness of every member and yet you claim, in the very next sentence no less, that we can say with confidence that your hasty generalisations are true.

They are hardly 'hasty'. The stereotypical brony is not a masculine fellow, they also aren't your average fellow.

Instead of withholding judgment, which would be the default position when there's barely any evidence, you immediately jump to conclusions based on a laughably small sample size. So yes, they are hasty. As to whether a stereotypical brony cannot be considered a masculine- or even average fellow seems to be irrelevant; stereotypes don't tend to be reflective of reality. Hence the negative connotations.

And while we are at it - may I suggest that you define your terms first? What constitutes manliness in your book? If I recall correctly you said earlier that a 'masculine' man who also happens to be a brony challenges the notion of masculinity on an individual basis. Therefore I have to assume that being a brony is per definitionYour definition. Or rather what I deduce might be part of your definition. a trait that somehow conflicts with masculinity. Which, in turn, would make your previous statement (i.e. "We can say with confidence that the average brony will not be as masculine as the average male.") true. Having said that, however, it'd also make it a tautology and therefore utterly useless.

When dealing with averages a tautology is not utterly useless, especially when more elaborate sources of evidence are not available.

Very well. Irrespective of the usefulness of tautologies as far as averages are concerned - this particular one is useless. It offers nothing of value. If you're charitable you may come up with a few implications that amount to little more than cum hoc ergo propter hoc or maybe even post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Being a fan of My Little Pony is the opposite of a masculine thing, ergo we can confidently say that it will tend to attract less masculine members. The same can be applied to cartoons attracting children - certainly there will still be an adult or young adult following but the most common demographic is children. I want to provide more examples as to how stereotypical bronies are less masculine than average but such examples will naturally offend or upset.

Speaking of the aforementioned fallacies...

Feel free to provide as many examples as you wish. Since you are presenting examples of stereotypical bronies rather than average ones your comparisons will offer little in the way of evidence for your argument.

As for the definition of masculinity I assumed we were talking about the traditional version of masculinity: high physical development, no-nonsense attitude and avoiding expressions of emotion. Hell, Ron Swanson is the poster-boy of masculinity.

You cannot merely assume to be on the same page as everyone else. The 'traditional' version of masculinity has always been subject to change. It drastically differs depending on the era we are examining as well as on the culture we are dealing with.

 

[Hagi]

I think that probably differs greatly based on where you are. I can't speak for all societies but I do know that here in the Netherlands it's completely expected for men and boys to take up their fair share of domestic work.

A failure to do so is shameful. An incapability to cook and clean is considered childish and seen as a sign that the only woman you should be spending time with is your mother.

Which isn't to say everything is fine and dandy, plenty of problems still to be found. But I do think that on this point, men taking up responsibilities traditionally considered feminine just like women have taken up responsibilities traditionally considered masculine, a lot of improvement has already happened, is still happening and will continue to happen.

In most parts of America, men are also expected to take up their fair share of domestic work. While there are parts of the country that encourage the idea of the wife being the housekeeper, most of the country sees that approach to familial dynamics as backwards and archaic, and even shameful.

However, when it comes to children, it is still overwhelmingly acceptable for girls to exclusively play with girl toys. And as I said, girls toys only focus on domestic tasks and personal beauty. So most of a girl's life she is expected to perform on-par with men and share those tasks with them...except in that phase of growing from toddlerhood to about adolescence. During that time, it is perfectly acceptable (and in some ways expected) for the girl to be focused purely upon "girly" domestic tasks. This expectation transcends familial and domestic setups. Even couples who split domestic tasks right down the middle will load down their girls with exclusively girly toys without so much as batting an eye. And it is arguable that this phase of growing-up has the greatest affect on what they will value as an adult.

The shame associated with domesticity doesn't come from the domesticity itself, but rather a focus on it that is exclusive to everything else. Girl's toys exclusively focus on domestic tasks, and so they are considered shameful for boys to use. So that's the point I'm trying to make: While most of America expects women and men to share domestic tasks, there is still a phase of life girls go through in which focusing exclusively on being a housewife is perfectly acceptable. A phase that boys also go through, but are (if it is at all possible) they are prohibited from focusing so exclusively on domesticity.

A good and true point (I think?), hadn't really looked at it that way.

Then again, I must admit to a complete and utter lack of knowledge on the part of domestic toys, which I guess goes a fair way in proving you right.

On the other hand in my youth I can honestly remember only a single kid that had exclusively girly toys, who was a boy... All the girls I can remember had their fair share of toys I wouldn't call girly.

All of that's just anecdotal though, so I can't really say anything for certain.

What I find somewhat odd though is that around here being a housewife seems generally considered to be in that awkward area where it isn't quite right to say it's wrong but most everyone kinda does believe it to be not entirely acceptable. Not sure how that applies to little children but I do know that seems to be an increasingly popular perception of adults.

 

[babinro]

Shows like Sailor Moon, Gummi Bears, Carebears, PowerPuff Girls had significant male followers as well.
MLP:FIM simply caters to a different generation than those older shows.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip.

Well that would make sense if MLP FIM was like that, but it isn't, all of the main characters have job and a place in life. None of them are a housewife and they do go on adventures.

However, I see what you mean. I personally think it's dangerous for people to look down on things like housework and both sexes just be taught it's something respectful and a lot of the times being house wife or husband is as difficult as working. Especially looking after kids. I see that your reasoning is logical but it's not an excuse if you see what I mean.

I personally don't think there is any shame in watching MLP:FIM. Hell I have Rainbow Dash stickers on my PC. A guy who likes My Little Pony would just get on with me better.