Do the mentally/physically challenged implicitly deserve my friendship?

[tofulove]

also, people with autism, even low functioning autism are far from idiots, one thing all autism has in common is being highly intelligent, even among the lowest functioning ones,

so if your going to be a prick, at least get your facts right, you can call us annoying or socially retarded, but most of us are most likely more intelligent than your self. and the world owes a lot to us, like the computer you are using, bill gates is autistic, Einstein was very likely autistic, the creator of Pokemon was as well. and the list goes on.

Jimi Hendrix made great music. He was also a drug addict. I appreciate him for what he did (for music), but if he were alive today, or I alive then, I wouldn't want to hang out with him. Similarly, I have every reason to believe Einstein was kind of a d-bag. His wife didn't seem to like him all that much anyway. I never said that those with disorders/disabilities were worthless. I said they were unpleasant to hang out with. And many of them are. (And plenty aren't! The coolest guy I knew in Freshmen year was missing his legs below the knee, one of my best friends is manic depressive, and my girlfriend has dyslexia.)

if you can name a famous and good musician who was straight edge, id eather say they did do drugs, or you just have bad taste in music drugs + natural born talent + practice = dam good music, end of story.

and to rehash. i personally am a hard person to deal with -not because im a ass hole or any thing, just weird-, and don't take personal offense, or at least not nearly as much offense as most people would to social rejection, although its that mentality that holds people like me self back, sad fact in life is, if your not popular and well like, the chances of being successful is greatly reduced. and that hampers people with autism a lot, most of which simply can not reach there potential because of the harsh reality of our society's inability to tolerate us. if society was more forgiving to us, we would be a very important part of society, already in fields that benefit from splinter skills, like mechanics, computers in general, engineering ext. high % of them are autistic, and is growing.

 

[Omnific One]

You don't have to like them; you just have to accept them. If you don't like them, that's a personal choice and no one can fault you for it. But if you just don't accept them, then that's discriminatory. Disliking people solely because of their disability, however, seems discriminatory.

I had a mentally challenged kid in a class a couple of years ago. I didn't hate him because he was mentally challenged; I hated him because he was an ass to everyone and felt entitled. He also decided that it would be fun to hit on several of my female friends.

None of this was a result of his disability; it was just his ingrained personality.

 

[ryai458]

If I don't like someone I don't like them I won't change my oponion just because they aren't all there.

 

[Kermi]

If you can't accept someone's faults, regardless of whether or not they're able to be held responsible for them, then you shouldn't be their friend. That's key to a real friendship, and if you overextend yourself to make that effort and bridge that gap, it's not going to be genuine.

 

[evilartist]

as a officially diagnosed by a doctor aspie, i wouldn't call it a metal disability, but we are fucking annoying, so don't blame ya,

on a side note, should give us a chance, although lacking in natural born tools for socializing, we can with practice improvise, should be a little more tolerant so we can learn to socialize better, but because of people like you, society has not yet fully appreciate all that we have to offer,

I think your post most accurately reflects my opinion on this topic (except I have ADHD, not Aspie).

as a officially diagnosed by a doctor aspie, i wouldn't call it a metal disability, but we are fucking annoying, so don't blame ya,

on a side note, should give us a chance, although lacking in natural born tools for socializing, we can with practice improvise, should be a little more tolerant so we can learn to socialize better, but because of people like you, society has not yet fully appreciate all that we have to offer,

Society hates aspies simply because every anti-social person self diagnoses themselves as one, tolerance doesn't come into it.

That pisses me off, the way everyone nowadays who has even the slightest personality flaws gets to use Aspherger's or ADHD as a crutch, since they have no idea how frustrating, painful, and sometimes traumatizing it is to have the real deal. It's like illegal aliens comparing Arizona's new immigration laws to the Holocaust. Really? Are you being rounded up into large ovens and incinerated, or just randomly being beaten or killed? (NOTE: Please do not go off-topic into a politics discussion. This was just an analogy)


I agree with the OP on this. I can see, from outside my perspective, that people with ADHD (or other subtle conditions) can be fucking annoying. I once had the opportunity to witness a child with my disorder interact with a group of kids; he looked like a pain in the ass to be around. I get that; it must be tiring (and embarrassing?) to hang around a kid like that. Granted, it's not his fault, since he usually doesn't understand. But still...

I have a question for you, summerof2010: would you socialize with someone who you knew had Asphergers/ADHD/['subtle' disorder] who has clearly improved to the point of almost never displaying any sort of symptoms?

 

[videodragon]

I have aespie and the thought of people using my type of condition as a way to make themselves seem justified in there own egos belittles the struggles of me and other people with a real and difficult problems i have everyday.

editing aprecated

 

[Mordwyl]

They didn't choose to have their disability, so I don't really see why they should be hurt even further than they are.

 

[Wardnath]

Pricks will be pricks regardless of intellectual capacity, race, gender, sexuality, whatever.

(If anyone's wondering, I've got Asperger's/autism. Legitimate too, I was diagnosed when I was 7.)

 

[fgdfgdgd]

also, people with autism, even low functioning autism are far from idiots, one thing all autism has in common is being highly intelligent, even among the lowest functioning ones,

so if your going to be a prick, at least get your facts right, you can call us annoying or socially retarded, but most of us are most likely more intelligent than your self. and the world owes a lot to us, like the computer you are using, bill gates is autistic, Einstein was very likely autistic, the creator of Pokemon was as well. and the list goes on.

Hitler also had autism, i'm not trying to detract from your argument or make a derogatory comment, i'm just adding to the list, people with autism can do great thing, and like any other person, they can also do horrible things.

My niece has autism as well, but it only really effects her ability to communicate verbally, other than that she is a rather bright kid for a four year old.

 

[Unesh52]

also, people with autism, even low functioning autism are far from idiots, one thing all autism has in common is being highly intelligent, even among the lowest functioning ones,

so if your going to be a prick, at least get your facts right, you can call us annoying or socially retarded, but most of us are most likely more intelligent than your self. and the world owes a lot to us, like the computer you are using, bill gates is autistic, Einstein was very likely autistic, the creator of Pokemon was as well. and the list goes on.

Jimi Hendrix made great music. He was also a drug addict. I appreciate him for what he did (for music), but if he were alive today, or I alive then, I wouldn't want to hang out with him. Similarly, I have every reason to believe Einstein was kind of a d-bag. His wife didn't seem to like him all that much anyway. I never said that those with disorders/disabilities were worthless. I said they were unpleasant to hang out with. And many of them are. (And plenty aren't! The coolest guy I knew in Freshmen year was missing his legs below the knee, one of my best friends is manic depressive, and my girlfriend has dyslexia.)

if you can name a famous and good musician who was straight edge, id eather say they did do drugs, or you just have bad taste in music drugs + natural born talent + practice = dam good music, end of story.

and to rehash. i personally am a hard person to deal with -not because im a ass hole or any thing, just weird-, and don't take personal offense, or at least not nearly as much offense as most people would to social rejection, although its that mentality that holds people like me self back, sad fact in life is, if your not popular and well like, the chances of being successful is greatly reduced. and that hampers people with autism a lot, most of which simply can not reach there potential because of the harsh reality of our society's inability to tolerate us. if society was more forgiving to us, we would be a very important part of society, already in fields that benefit from splinter skills, like mechanics, computers in general, engineering ext. high % of them are autistic, and is growing.

That's sounds like you want people to befriend the autistic so they'll program computers for them. Which sounds like exploiting them. I know that's not what you're getting at, but I'd like to think that I make friends independently of their ability to do stuff for me. In other words, I want friends I like for their personality, not for their benefit to society. I don't doubt their abilities, and I'd never miss an opportunity to place such a person in a position to do everyone some good, but if they tell obnoxious/immature/tactless jokes and over stay their welcome, etc., all the time, I'm not inviting them to dinner, that's for damn sure.

If you can't accept someone's faults, regardless of whether or not they're able to be held responsible for them, then you shouldn't be their friend. That's key to a real friendship, and if you overextend yourself to make that effort and bridge that gap, it's not going to be genuine.

I agree with the OP on this. I can see, from outside my perspective, that people with ADHD (or other subtle conditions) can be fucking annoying. I once had the opportunity to witness a child with my disorder interact with a group of kids; he looked like a pain in the ass to be around. I get that; it must be tiring (and embarrassing?) to hang around a kid like that. Granted, it's not his fault, since he usually doesn't understand. But still...

I have a question for you, summerof2010: would you socialize with someone who you knew had Asphergers/ADHD/['subtle' disorder] who has clearly improved to the point of almost never displaying any sort of symptoms?

Thank you for understanding my position guys, the lack of venom in these posts is refreshing.

And for evilartist, yes I would. Er, I mean if he wasn't a toss anyway. Or if the symptom that seldom displays is like... killing my parents or something. The point is, I don't care what's wrong with you on principle, I just don't like being bothered. If your disorder isn't annoying, then we can be friends. Even if it is annoying, I'm not going to draw and quarter you for it -- I just won't hang out with you.

 

[Dexiro]

I think i get what OP is saying, but i don't think many other people do.

I've had quite a bit of experience with people that have mental problems, and a lot of them just aren't nice people.

Some mental problems will have people being intrusive, loud and awkward. Some people will have a god complex and won't hesitate to backstab their friends. Some people are extremely destructive and lie compulsively.
None of those characteristics are any of their fault, but as much as you don't want to judge them for it they just aren't nice people, by nature.

The very least you can do is give them more tolerance than you'd usually give anyone else.
You shouldn't be forced to put up with a complete asshole just because it's not his fault, just try your best and hope to hell he has some good characteristics to compensate.

 

[Riobux]

Do they deserve a free ticket into your social group? God no. Do they deserve to not be ridiculed for something they can not help? I'd say so.

 

[SuccessAndBiscuts]

Firstly I can see where the original idea of this thread comes from and quite frankly I agree, personally I think its an annoying side-effect of the "political correctness" that seems all so important in this day and age.

I do feel I should clarify a few things though (mostly regarding autism/aspergers) firstly, one of my younger brothers has higher functioning autism and I have often suspected a trend of undiagnosed aspergers in the family even including myself. No official diagnosis although I've never been tested and now compensate quite well although it would explain a lot of stuff that happened when I was younger. Also my mum is a founding member/chairperson for an autism supporting charity in the local area.

Anyway, to counterpoint the inevitable ignorance, Autism and Aspergers are disorders that fall on the "Autistic Spectrum" ASD's (austic spectrum disorders) can manifest in a large variety of ways on a huge variety of levels. The best analogy I have heard is to think of it as a giant jigsaw puzzle. Each trait, be it an aversion to certain sounds, textures, lights etc. Inability to pick up on certain social cues or a tendancy to obsess over a particular subject. Is ONE piece of that puzzle, if the puzzle as a whole has 100 pieces then "normal" people probably have around 30-40 pieces aspies have around 60-70 and autistic people fill in the remaining 70-100.

The reason so many people self-diagnose is because they have a couple of the more well known traits but lack the others.

also, people with autism, even low functioning autism are far from idiots, one thing all autism has in common is being highly intelligent, even among the lowest functioning ones,

so if your going to be a prick, at least get your facts right, you can call us annoying or socially retarded, but most of us are most likely more intelligent than your self. and the world owes a lot to us, like the computer you are using, bill gates is autistic, Einstein was very likely autistic, the creator of Pokemon was as well. and the list goes on.

Not to argue I just want to point out a couple things, firstly autistic people are just as likely to be intelligent as "normals" the difference is that because their ability to focus on a single thing is on average much higher they tend to accomplish more in certain fields.

Secondly Im not sure Bill Gates was ever diagnosed, even if he was I suspect he is on the shallow end of the spectrum to re use the jigsaw analogy from above I would estimate 50-65

Edit:

Hitler also had autism, i'm not trying to detract from your argument or make a derogatory comment, i'm just adding to the list, people with autism can do great thing, and like any other person, they can also do horrible things.

I would point out what I wrote about Bill Gates above, these "so and so had autism so its a good/bad thing" really annoy me, I know its not what you meant but people could get the wrong idea from that.

 

[tofulove]

TLDNR

Do you feel like people with disorders/disabilities deserve special concessions in social groups, namely yours?

no, i my self am a lot less annoying than most aspies, mainly because the people i hang out with gave me a lot of shit, its a fact that peer pressure is good for kids, in the long run, learning to deal with people makes you a lot more functional adult. i have all my life lived with wolfs, neglected as a kid, and raised in a poor neighborhood, i had little traditional support for my needs. both in child hood, and as a adult, because of it, i am now much more well adjusted than most in socializing. although were i learn to swim, many sink.

i still have many issues, socializing that is, regardless on how much practice you had at hammering nails with a screw driver, it wont ever be as good as a hammer. but i have adapted well.

i also find socializing to be extremely exhausting, for me personally socializing is not a natural thing, but more a mental gymnastics, constantly thinking to make sure i do it well, in social settings of more than 5 people, i can become extremely tax mentally. and even in smaller groups over long periods of time, it will ware me down.

 

[tofulove]

also, people with autism, even low functioning autism are far from idiots, one thing all autism has in common is being highly intelligent, even among the lowest functioning ones,

so if your going to be a prick, at least get your facts right, you can call us annoying or socially retarded, but most of us are most likely more intelligent than your self. and the world owes a lot to us, like the computer you are using, bill gates is autistic, Einstein was very likely autistic, the creator of Pokemon was as well. and the list goes on.

Hitler also had autism, i'm not trying to detract from your argument or make a derogatory comment, i'm just adding to the list, people with autism can do great thing, and like any other person, they can also do horrible things.

My niece has autism as well, but it only really effects her ability to communicate verbally, other than that she is a rather bright kid for a four year old.

proof of that is needed, if even so, despite hitlers many bad actions, he had good number of good ideas, as example i support control breeding, its a fact human genetics are going down hill. and i find breeding people of good genes is a beneficial thing to society, for example, steven hawking should be milked and his seed given to any women who would take it.

 

[sosolidshoe]

If I don't like someone I don't like them I won't change my oponion just because they aren't all there.

The question, though, is whether you dislike them because they're "not all there". And then, again, the point becomes that while you are entitled to hold such an opinion, you are not allowed to be offended when others think less of you for it.

I think there are two main issues when it comes to "subtle" disorders like Asperger's, the first being, as mentioned previously, over-diagnosis. The same issue has arisen with Dyslexia in the past decade; it begins with a drive for awareness, honestly motivated, but quickly becomes a crutch for parents who refuse to believe their child may be unsuited to particular intellectual pursuits(note; not all, one can be a master linguist but barely be able to handle change, or conversely may have an instinctual understanding of mathematics but be unable to tell the difference between a verb and a noun if their life depended on it).

The second issue is, sadly, simple lack of understanding. When I inform someone I have Asperger's, or High Function Autism if they don't know what A.S. is, I get one of two responses; blind incomprehension being the most common, with the alternative being the person adopting the same attitude and mannerisms they would if they were talking to a small child(raised voice, simplified vocabulary, excessive praise, constant confirmation of my understanding).

The second is, as you can imagine, rather insulting, especially as I was diagnosed recently by my country's standards and so had to develop coping mechanisms on my own during my teens, meaning I can comfortably hold a conversation providing the topic is clearly defined.

It really is quite difficult to describe, but for the OP I'll give it a shot, so that even if you in future encounter an "aspie" and find them annoying, you may give them a little latitude and time in order to determine if that's who they are, or merely a product of the situation in which you both find yourself.

Imagine, if you will, that your consciousness is transplanted into a new biological body. Your mind is as it ever was, your personality is likewise, but the new body is defective. Your ability to recognise body language on an instinctual level is gone. Your balance and spatial awareness are reduced, to a greater or lesser degree, so you have become clumsy and uncomfortable in yourself. You have difficulty articulating concepts which seem clear to you, especially through complex metaphor. The new body has a randomly determined aversion to one or more of your physical senses; perhaps sounds of certain frequencies cause you pain, or the feeling of being touched triggers a feeling of revulsion. You find yourself fixating on particular subjects for extended periods, then suddenly losing that interest, without conscious control. You engage in cyclical behaviour without even realising it. Your memory varies wildly in effectiveness depending on your own defect, from perfect recall of particular aspects of memory such as dates and days, to a disturbing tendency to experience every memory and sensation even vaguely related to the original thought in an overwhelming torrent.

Now, imagine having been that way since childhood, and consider the effect such an existence would have had on your development as a person.

I'm actually very lucky, in that I've so far failed to manifest the extreme sensation-aversion which so many people with A.S. have, I simply feel uncomfortable touching people I don't know, but to compensate for the rest of it and hold a "normal" conversation takes constant mental effort. I have to spend large amounts of my mental resources forming a barrier between what I think and what I say, and then another layer to consciously and continually analyse and decode people's posture, facial expression, gestures and tone of voice, and another layer to keep a constant conscious grip on my physical movements to ensure I'm not knocking into people or things. Even with all that, I find it difficult to detect if someone is being deceptive, and tend to rant on about subjects which interest me long after I've reached the boredom threshold of the person with whom I'm conversing.

Which I'm probably doing right now

So, I'll quickly reiterate my point - having A.S. is a HUGE pain in the arse, so give them a little leeway before you make your final call on whether to favour them with your time; they might be an entitled arsewipe, or they might just gently need a reminder to shut up once in a while.

 

[Deacon Cole]

There is a difference between acceptance and tolerance.

 

[Denamic]

I don't discriminate about such disabilities.
If they annoy me, I'm not going to be their friends.
Whether that annoying quality is just an obnoxious personality or an actual mental disability, I really don't care.
I've got a deaf friend and a friend with Tourette's syndrome, and they're both cool.
Although the deaf guy can be hard to talk with, as I don't speak much sign language and he's shit at talking.
We mostly just talk online instead.
The friend with Tourette's syndrome tend to get angry when his ticks causes him to fail in TF2.
I love it when he does that, when he's on the enemy team.

Besides, being their friends just because of pity over their condition is just demeaning towards them anyway, imo.

 

[tofulove]

Firstly I can see where the original idea of this thread comes from and quite frankly I agree, personally I think its an annoying side-effect of the "political correctness" that seems all so important in this day and age.

I do feel I should clarify a few things though (mostly regarding autism/aspergers) firstly, one of my younger brothers has higher functioning autism and I have often suspected a trend of undiagnosed aspergers in the family even including myself. No official diagnosis although I've never been tested and now compensate quite well although it would explain a lot of stuff that happened when I was younger. Also my mum is a founding member/chairperson for an autism supporting charity in the local area.

Anyway, to counterpoint the inevitable ignorance, Autism and Aspergers are disorders that fall on the "Autistic Spectrum" ASD's (austic spectrum disorders) can manifest in a large variety of ways on a huge variety of levels. The best analogy I have heard is to think of it as a giant jigsaw puzzle. Each trait, be it an aversion to certain sounds, textures, lights etc. Inability to pick up on certain social cues or a tendancy to obsess over a particular subject. Is ONE piece of that puzzle, if the puzzle as a whole has 100 pieces then "normal" people probably have around 30-40 pieces aspies have around 60-70 and autistic people fill in the remaining 70-100.

The reason so many people self-diagnose is because they have a couple of the more well known traits but lack the others.

also, people with autism, even low functioning autism are far from idiots, one thing all autism has in common is being highly intelligent, even among the lowest functioning ones,

so if your going to be a prick, at least get your facts right, you can call us annoying or socially retarded, but most of us are most likely more intelligent than your self. and the world owes a lot to us, like the computer you are using, bill gates is autistic, Einstein was very likely autistic, the creator of Pokemon was as well. and the list goes on.

Not to argue I just want to point out a couple things, firstly autistic people are just as likely to be intelligent as "normals" the difference is that because their ability to focus on a single thing is on average much higher they tend to accomplish more in certain fields.

Secondly Im not sure Bill Gates was ever diagnosed, even if he was I suspect he is on the shallow end of the spectrum to re use the jigsaw analogy from above I would estimate 50-65

part of the diagnosing process for autism is scoring high on the iq test, which every one can agree is highly inaccurate, but some one with a iq of 70 wont be getting a score of 140.

i read a article in time magazine talking about how bill had it. it was some time ago, it could of bin speculation based on a lot of evidence, time generally in my experience tends to be pretty accurate, and wont report some thing with out a lot of good and reliable backing.