Do we need more female protagonists, or just more interesting ones?

[Zipa]

We need better protagonists, male and female though it wouldn't hurt to have a bias towards more female leads for a time. Though they need to actually be written like human beings and not just token love interest or token T+A and so on. They need to be actually characterised to not just a blank slate like Commander Sherpard or Gordon Freeman.

Same as the male protagonists though really it wouldn't hurt if they were wrote to be you know people instead of just meat men with no personality like say Marcus Fenix who as Yahtzee points out just grunts where emotion should be.

The biggest problem is pretty much what Jim Sterling pointed out already, the big companies are being run by cowards and people from other industries who don't have a clue about video games and what people want so they ask their marketing depts who came from the same companies that they themselves did.

 

[Casual Shinji]

We need game developers to get comfortable with female characters. Right now, female game characters are either something pretty to look at, or handled so carefully that you can hear the egg shells creeking under foot. And the only way for that to happen is to keep practicing till creating them comes as naturally as coming up with a male character.

 

[Schmeiser]

Nvm misread the title

 

[James Joseph Emerald]

We need game developers to get comfortable with female characters. Right now, female game characters are either something pretty to look at, or handled so carefully that you can hear the egg shells creeking under foot.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there.

Even when there are characters who aren't straight, white, "regular" men, they're inevitably bland and dull because the focus becomes making them inoffensive, rather than interesting.

But I don't think the problem is with inexperienced writers as much as it is with the decision-makers behind these games getting cold feet. Generic white guys are a "safe" option, as are bland inoffensive token characters.

 

[AuronFtw]

Whilst I agree entirely with your general point, we live in a society where the majority of people are white and heterosexual. If you lived in India, the default in the media would be Indian, in Japan, Japenese. Even if our media better reflected actual society, which I acknowledge that it doesn't and should, then white and heterosexual would still be the default.

Honestly... is that a bad thing? I mean yeah, given the current tumblrrage mindset of the internet, anything that isn't totally PC is liable to be bashed, but... think about it. People write best about what they know - that's one of the big reasons why autobiographies are so powerful. If the majority of game writers, programmers and developers are white males, it's no huge mystery why most games feature white, male leads - they're the easiest for the dev team to make.

If a game came from a Japanese dev team and featured a fully japanese cast (like a shitload of them do), is that "equally bad?" Should we be jumping down their throats for not making more white male protags? No, that would be fucking silly. We can't expect a fully Japanese team to write a moving story about the hood life in a black neighborhood in philly or the struggles of a Hispanic family in the Midwest, or indeed about #whitepeopleproblems. Exceptions obviously exist (GTASA, for example, had a great story about a charismatic black protag featuring an incredibly mixed cast), but they're a tiny minority, and even the same company can fuck it up (see also: Nico Bellic, the blandest white man not named Desmond, and the entire GTA game he ruined by simply existing). By and large it'll just be a case of Trying Too Hard, and quality will suffer. As is pointed out already in this thread, average game writing quality suffers quite enough without forcing the devs to make characters they're even less familiar with purely to appease the tumblr crowd ranting about the lack of female/black/asian/latino/gay/etc/etc leads. If they're familiar with those situations, or those groups, then hell yeah they should write about them. But expecting them, or forcing them to do it via silly internet shaming techniques? More harmful than helpful.

The best bet is to just get a more varied group of people developing games. You can hope against hope that a mostly white, male dev team can occasionally write a moving story about a minority/female/etc lead, but that's what we already do, and it doesn't seem to be "working." We already get the occasional great story, but if we want more, the only option is to have more writers and developers who can put actual *life* into the story and characters, drawing from experiences they've had. It can be anything from including small off-hand comments that come off as racist/sexist/trans...ist (?) despite not being intended that way (which make day-to-day life for those groups more difficult) to entire themes or plot arcs relating to either personal growth of the character or of those around them. Or, even better, to have the story arc barely touch on their personal aspects at all (or at least don't Try Too Hard to include them) while the character acts like any other heroic protag throughout the story, showing that a good game can be helmed by any type of protag.

With the exception of Other M, Samus has had an incredible run of typically high quality action games. Some people will harp on about her "not being a character" because she doesn't jarringly halt gameplay to give long monologues every two seconds, but if the industry was littered with characters like Samus, it'd be better off. A good starting point for future progress, at least, until we can figure out a way to stop people buying any game with a fuckterrible story so devs other than bioware actually put some effort into it and drastically improve the whole gaming scene in the process.

 

[A-D.]

To be honest, i think the best solution would be, in theory, to create a good character but never define their gender as such. Basicly consider any Bioware "Hero" ever, they are by themselves characters who arent defined by their gender. So first we just need a good character as a base, then you give players the option of being either male or female.

Its one of the things that bug me about for example Risen 3, or primarily about Risen in general because the Hero is a nobody, they have no name, no anything until the game progresses and the story is told, yet why must they be male for this story to be told? What things could happen to a dude that couldnt happen to a gal? Just give us a good story, a good "character" and let us fill in the blanks as we want, be that gender, sexuality or appearance, depending on how far you want to go with optional choice.

I mean look at any protagonist, or antagonist for that matter in any game. What qualities do they have that specifically define their gender? Honestly i cant ever find a solid reason why any character has to be male for it to work, or female. Consider Nathan Drake and Lara Croft, essentially they are the same character, the only difference is their gender, but in characterisation and behavior they seem very much alike.

 

[Whitewillow]

I'd say both. Better writing is important period. But at this point there's more interesting, well written male characters simply because there's a lot more male characters. I'd say better writing would be awesome and top of the list, but more female protagonists would be quite welcome.

 

[mecegirl]

Whilst I agree entirely with your general point, we live in a society where the majority of people are white and heterosexual. If you lived in India, the default in the media would be Indian, in Japan, Japenese. Even if our media better reflected actual society, which I acknowledge that it doesn't and should, then white and heterosexual would still be the default.

How does that explain away the male part of her statement? Because there should at least be more White female protagonists according to your logic.

 

[CloudAtlas]

As several others before me already said... why not both? It's not that there's any mutual exclusivity here.

More female characters would be good. Better female characters would be good. Better characters overall, male or female, would be good. More and better non-white characters would be good.

Whenever you're asking questions like this, whenever you're arguing that we need better characters in general, just try to make sure that you don't unintentionally come across as suggesting that people who want more or better characters of a certain kind are somehow wrong for asking so. Because that's a tactic that is regularly used in order to dilute the message of just about anyone demanding any particular thing.

 

[BrainWalker]

I'm not sure why this question is set up with an "or" in it. It's not like the industry has to choose to have either well-written characters in general or more female protagonists. We can, and should, ask for both.

 

[Alterego-X]

Whilst I agree entirely with your general point, we live in a society where the majority of people are white and heterosexual. If you lived in India, the default in the media would be Indian, in Japan, Japenese. Even if our media better reflected actual society, which I acknowledge that it doesn't and should, then white and heterosexual would still be the default.

We live in a society where most people have never took a bullet.

How many video game protagonists could this be said about?

We live in a society where most people have a day job.

How many video game protagonists could this be said about?

Wriers are constantly making choices to make a story more fascinating and diverse. Interesting locations, plots, characters, etc. Of course media SHOULDN'T "reflect actual society". If I wanted to see an accurate reflectation of society, I would be searching for a big-ass mirror, not for fiction.

I don't even want many fictional stories to take place in our society in the first place, and even the ones that do should focus on an interesting aspect of it instead of being the accurate representation of average life.

Honestly... is that a bad thing? I mean yeah, given the current tumblrrage mindset of the internet, anything that isn't totally PC is liable to be bashed, but... think about it. People write best about what they know - that's one of the big reasons why autobiographies are so powerful. If the majority of game writers, programmers and developers are white males, it's no huge mystery why most games feature white, male leads - they're the easiest for the dev team to make.

First of all, I'm pretty sure that practically all people who complain about the disproportionate amount of male characters, are also the ones who complain about the disproportionate amount of male game devs and movie writers/directors.

Second, most writers are also humans, mortals, middle-class modern citizens, and writers. If this doesn't stop them from writing about the life of immortal god-kings, about space pirates, about adventurer archeologists, about risen slaves, about sentinent plants, and about serial killers, but they can't possibly put themselves in the shoes of someone who happens in love with someone of his own sex, or with someone who has dark skin... that sounds like an oddly specific writer's block.

 

[Treeberry]

As several others before me already said... why not both? It's not that there's any mutual exclusivity here.

More female characters would be good. Better female characters would be good. Better characters overall, male or female, would be good. More and better non-white characters would be good.

Whenever you're asking questions like this, whenever you're arguing that we need better characters in general, just try to make sure that you don't unintentionally come across as suggesting that people who want more or better characters of a certain kind are somehow wrong for asking so. Because that's a tactic that is regularly used in order to dilute the message of just about anyone demanding any particular thing.

Agreed. I'd love to see more variety in characters and well-written ones too. I can't actually name a single male black playable character outside of a couple of fighting games and that one GTA game.

I wish more thought would go into character designs in general sometimes. I mean I know work goes into them, but when I'm supposed to be playing Poor Little Orphan Guy I shouldn't be wondering why this 'orphan' looks healthier, better fed and better clothed than the majority of NPCs I come across. And his girlfriend too. These guys shouldn't look like gods on earth right off the bat if they're to be orphans in a society that has just been at war with a imperial powerhouse!

 

[Zhukov]

I don't understand why so many people seem to think that these two are mutually exclusive.

I'm just gonna be That Guy and say "both".

Spoiler

God I wish people would stop using that picture.

The cameraman totally got my bad side.

 

[Lieju]

I don't even understand your question. Why are these mutually exclusive?

It's very easy to say 'just write better characters'.
But if we look at separate things that make writing good and characters complex, we can discuss things like portraying sexuality and gender.
Writing good female characters is a part of good writing.

People write best about what they know - that's one of the big reasons why autobiographies are so powerful. If the majority of game writers, programmers and developers are white males, it's no huge mystery why most games feature white, male leads - they're the easiest for the dev team to make.

So then most video-game stories should be about video-game designers leading completely normal and boring lives? Or at least in the completely similar societies than the writers live in?

Even assuming the writers are unable to write anyone (or that it would be really hard for them) who isn't treated like a white heterosexual male, it's not like the rules and societal expectations are necessarily the same in the video-game worlds.

Let's say you have a fantasy world where no-one cares what your skin colour is. Then writing a black character would be no different than writing a white character.

And I'm not sure if you know this, but women are kinda like humans too.

It might be true that having experiences on something helps you write it, but it doesn't need to be one-to-one.
Or are you saying white heterosexual men cannot possibly symphatize with other kinds of people, and cannot face any hardships themselves, or at least talk to people who aren't treated the same?

 

[Thaluikhain]

Whilst I agree entirely with your general point, we live in a society where the majority of people are white and heterosexual. If you lived in India, the default in the media would be Indian, in Japan, Japenese. Even if our media better reflected actual society, which I acknowledge that it doesn't and should, then white and heterosexual would still be the default.

We live in a society where most people have never took a bullet.

How many video game protagonists could this be said about?

We live in a society where most people have a day job.

How many video game protagonists could this be said about?

Wriers are constantly making choices to make a story more fascinating and diverse. Interesting locations, plots, characters, etc. Of course media SHOULDN'T "reflect actual society". If I wanted to see an accurate reflectation of society, I would be searching for a big-ass mirror, not for fiction.

I don't even want many fictional stories to take place in our society in the first place, and even the ones that do should focus on an interesting aspect of it instead of being the accurate representation of average life.

Exactly.

People can identify with vampires, space marines and vampire space marines...as long as they are white and straight. A gay guy is somehow weirder than an 8ft tall blood drinking bloke that fights space hippies and alien chavs.

 

[Vault101]

we do need more female protagonists

but more interesting (or just different) protagonists would be a great start...I mean I highly doubt we were all inspired by the latest Watchdogs trailer.....

 

[Suhi89]

Whilst I agree entirely with your general point, we live in a society where the majority of people are white and heterosexual. If you lived in India, the default in the media would be Indian, in Japan, Japenese. Even if our media better reflected actual society, which I acknowledge that it doesn't and should, then white and heterosexual would still be the default.

How does that explain away the male part of her statement? Because there should at least be more White female protagonists according to your logic.

It doesn't, which is why I didn't mention it. My hypothesis on why male is the default is much more complicated and concerns, amongst other thing, history and demographics (women are the default in certain genres and medias) and I didn't want to write an excessively long post. Suffice to say I agree that more diversity would be a good thing. Most protagonists don't need to be white or male for them to work and I would like to see other demographics better represented. I can't remember ever playing a game with a black male protagonist (are there any obvious ones?) except for Skyrim and I created him. Also I don't think I've ever played as a gay character. That seems ridiculous to me.

Snip

I actually completely agree with every line of your post. I was talking about why white heterosexual is the default in media in general and I think that just happens to have passed by osmosis into video games. But you're right. When writing video games, people don't tend to write what they know. There is no reason at all why, say, Nathan Drake couldn't be black or female. I mean, ND made Crash Bandicoot and Jak and Daxter and I doubt any of them are furry animals or supercharged with dark eco.

I've also seen people say that they know people who wouldn't want to play a game if it had a female protagonist. Are people really so petty? Imagine if women refused to play as a male character? But if it's true it's clearly a problem with wider society rather than video games in general.

 

[Pierre Poutine]

Elizabeth needs to be saved 2 and a half times by my count. At the beginning, when she's captured by some soldiers, and when the surgery is being performed [which was Booker was only able to get there because future Elizabeth brought him there in the first place, so I count that as a half save]. Incidentally, the only reason you have to save her again in the first place is because she saves you from Songbird by letting herself get captured.

Booker also needs to be saved from drowning, and from falling off Columbia after facing the first handyman. Also, if you want to get technical, she revives you every time you die, so there's that too.

Meanwhile, the rest of the game is all about Booker and Elizabeth working together to survive this ordeal. It's clear one couldn't do it without the other so it's a mutually beneficial relationship.

Point is, the fact that Elizabeth needs saving a few times doesn't make her less interesting, nor does it come off as a poor depiction of females since the game makes it clear that being male doesn't make you immune from ever needing help. What makes Elizabeth work is that they put a lot of effort into her character. She has a personality, she has an arc, and while she's perhaps not realistic in the same way Disney princesses aren't, she still has identifiable character traits to make her resonate with the player.

 

[Something Amyss]

What I think the issue is, and brace yourself for my outstanding originality, is that we don't have many INTERESTING protagonists, Male or Female.

And even with that said, how many iconic female characters can you name? How many male?

See, even within this excuse, there remains great disparity between men and women. At its very essence, your premise isn't an either/or thing. Not to mention, if we're accepting of the Dantes and Nathans and Kratoses and Master Chiefs and Coles and Marcuses, it doesn't track that our characters need to be super deep.

That said, ideally, we would probably have better writing. Especially for those folks who demand this be a media taken seriously by the art crowd or whatever. But to me, they're still just toys and I treat them as such. Even so, the bad writing of women is not on par with the bad writing of men or even close.

.....You may have a point there. Really, sexism in gaming is a symptom of a much bigger problem when you stop and think about it. IE, writing in gaming kinda sucks. Something to think about.

Writing in gaming really does suck, and for the most part, even our most "brilliant" stories are the equivalent of B movies.

I'm not sure that changes the issue of the female protagonist, though. Bad writing doesn't change the issue of numbers, or the hostility given when someone asks for more. Nobody's been threatened with rape or death to my knowledge for suggesting writing in games sucks.

Yeah, writing in gaming sucks. I still dream of a day when women can suck in gaming without their presence being specifically tantrum-worthy, or without each individual instance under a magnifying glass (The whole think I've seen on The Escapist where because "Remember Me" sucked this whole "women in games" thing is a failed experiment).

That's what Doctor Who did when they brought Martha Jones to Elizabethan England. I think there was only one episode where Martha's race actually had a bit of bearing on the plot, and that's because a character's arc was SPECIFICALLY about dealing with learning that the future has female doctors and people of color are treated equally.

The Shakespeare Code didn't take as many liberties as people seem to think. In Shakespeare's time, there was a fairly diverse number of different peoples coming through England. Granted, many of them were "only" travellers, but people waaaaay overstate this.

It was amusing, though, that the Doctor took an "I never thought of it" attitude, since he's always a white dude. He's in a position where he doesn't have to think about it. Conveniently, I don't think he's really been to many places where they would kill him just for being white. Or enslave him.

And I'm not sure the dialogue in "Family of Blood" was particularly necessary. There was an undercurrent of racism in the episodes, but Martha didn't bring up her medical training until she was trying to convince someone that "John Smith" was an alien with a time machine, and only then when challenged that someone of her status, sex, and colour couldn't be a doctor. She wasn't so much trying to prove the equality of the future as she was trying to establish her bona fides.

Which, when you consider she'd established herself as a poor black Londoner to stay close to the Doctor, she'd have an uphill battle. But I'm not sure it counts as plot-important.

I'm on board with the idea that we need more gelatinous cube protagonists.

Screw you! I can't identify as a gelatinous cube and I will therefore tear down anyone that wants the option to play as one!

.....*ahem*

I mean, I have no problem with gelatinous cubes in gaming, but why don't we focus on better writing for the cubes instead of more of them? Surely you can get by with the number we have already. It's not like you have to force your preferences down our throats by making them actually exist or something.

It would probably be less offensive to some gamers than the idea that we needs more female, racially or sexually diverse characters.

You're very kind for saying "probably."

Yes, more female characters would be nice and so would more complex and well-written characters.
I don't understand why so many people seem to think that these two are mutually exclusive.

If you ask me, which you didn't, it usually comes off as a red herring. It's an attempt, well-intentioned or otherwise, to shut down a line of conversation people dislike/are tired of/are uncomfortable with.

The biggest problem I see with it is that even if every major female character was well-written, there'd still be a precious token few. We'd still "need" more (as much as we can need anything in a luxury consumer market, because games are a commercial product in the context we're using here). As such, I do see the issue as being one where quantity should be a primary issue. Besides, it's not like we're exactly seeing Shakespeare from Mario, Link and Trevor.

Honestly... is that a bad thing?

It is if the culture is so locked the mere suggestion of more diversity sparks violent outrage and/or hostility from the majority. It looks like you're too busy being outraged at Tumblr, but there's a real, culture-wide phenomenon going on you're ignoring in the process.

I mean, people ***** about "Tumblr Feminists" for behaving like...Well, like white dudes are allowed to behave all the time.