Do we need more female protagonists, or just more interesting ones?

[gargantual]

And Heeeeere we go again. Oh well. My two cents.

Rhianna Pratchett inferred on one of these threads, why games have bad writing and poorly realized characters. The story is put in as second fiddle after the levels and all 3D assets are already built, and they're asked as writing consultants to fill in the blanks.

Where if they had more creative input from the very inception and pre-production of a AAA game, games would be likely to have more fleshed out and consistent character development, and narrative that reflects the mechanics and game objectives properly.

Any character can look confusing, bad or unintentionally marginalized when development priorities are THAT mixed up.

 

[Lee Jd]

Yeah, I am totally up for more interesting characters all around. As a woman I wouldn't mind seeing a shift towards more female characters. But then again, a reduction in the tough-macho-manly-stoic-manly-man character would be pretty damn nice too.

I think the problem is that writers, probably force-fed by producers, think the audience wants something that it doesn't actually want. This is why we get the same stamp-approved character builds which can be fun sometimes, sure, but these days had become old and tired.

It's the same problem with main-stream comic books, There are a lot of old, male writers who seem to be living vicariously through their male characters, some boyhood fantasy they never experienced. Being big a muscular, saving the day, rescuing the hot chick-who-will-eventually-become-their-partner-and-later-die-to-force-the-male-into-emotional-struggle-because-that's-what-always-happens-and-she-serves-no-other-purpose-and-is-not-an-actual-character lady.

And, sure, I'm willing to believe that there are plenty of gamers out there who enjoy playing this type of character. They may even like it a lot. But surely producers must realize there comes a time when a change needs to take place. Things need to be switched up once in a while. Kept fresh, evolve, and all that.

 

[Lee Jd]

And Heeeeere we go again. Oh well. My two cents.

Rhianna Pratchett inferred on one of these threads, why games have bad writing and poorly realized characters. The story is put in as second fiddle after the levels and all 3D assets are already built, and they're asked as writing consultants to fill in the blanks.

Where if they had more creative input from the very inception and pre-production of a AAA game, games would be likely to have more fleshed out and consistent character development, and narrative that reflects the mechanics and game objectives properly.

Any character can look confusing, bad or unintentionally marginalized when development priorities are THAT mixed up.

That's a good point. The segmentation of departments is a real thing.

But it's a stupid thing. If developers like Naughty Dog can make a totally cohesive, flowing game with real-seeming characters then why can't other companies? Or hell, even cutscenes that make sense in comparison to the gameplay.

Of course, I'm not trying to say all companies need to be Naughty Dog, or even that every game needs to be so story-driven. But I find the segmented-department games often come across feeling messy and not well-put together.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

It's funny though how this thread says one thing, but market reality [http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/games-with-female-heroes-dont-sell-because-publishers-dont-support-them] shows something entirely different. Games with male-only protagonists sell 75% better on average than those with female-only leads and oddly 25% better than games which offer a choice.

One can moan about lack of female leads all they want but the reality is that in general if the game had a male lead it would sell better.

People can identify with vampires, space marines and vampire space marines...as long as they are white and straight. A gay guy is somehow weirder than an 8ft tall blood drinking bloke that fights space hippies and alien chavs.

What is the role of the protagonists homosexuality in the context of the game? If it's a defining feature, I'm not sure I would play it since I don't want to play a game about sexuality of any kind. I'd prefer to play a game with vampires, goblins or aliens. If the sexuality is irrelevant in the context of the game then what is the point of designating the protagonist as gay?

Sexuality is vastly different from the other aforementioned types of character. "Gay" is not a separate race that defines a powerset, world setting or what have you. Unless a character's sexuality is important to the story, it doesn't need to be mentioned because the act of making a point of it gives it importance. Further, homosexuals make up < 5% of the population. Should that mean that 5% of games should have a homosexual protagonist? Not really no. 1 sixth of the entire world population is Indian, 1 sixth of the world is Muslim and 1 sixth of the world is catholic but no one is crying out for Indian, Muslim or Catholic video game protagonists.

Romance in games is itself a tiny niche thing present in a miniscule percentage of games as a whole. What games exactly should people be making to make you happy where the protagonist is gay? And answer honestly, if you were a publisher and a dev team came to you with an idea for a game with a gay protagonist, would you consider spending millions from your pocket to fund it? Wouldn't those millions be better off spent on a game that will appeal to a larger proportion of the gaming market? (Not to the extent of Ubisoft and EA's "broadened appeal" strategy, but more than the 5% homosexual population).

 

[Ivailo Todorov]

I don't care if its a male/female/something else entirely,as long as they are interesting characters they get a pass in my book.

 

[william12123]

I generally agree with the OP. Despite the number of "iconic" male characters, most of them are crapilly written over-all. Better writing overall would help everyone.

As for the whole "why cant the mostly white, male heterosexual writers just write more of X type of character", there are a number of stumbling blocks. For one, if race, sexuality & sex is irrelevant, they are probably going to fall back on their own standards. Otherwise, we end up with the "dudes with boobs" phenomenon, where female characters are basically identical to men, which I believe caused some backlash some time ago? Memory is poor.

And for those who say "they can write emperors, space aliens, etc... (bunch of unreal stuff)", well NOBODY (or at least nobody today) has any real standards for that. So if they are poorly written, we cant tell (unless it is really crappy). However, anything closer to our own knowledge will be much more irksome (example: most people dont know physics enough to be bothered by impossible sci-fi tech created by writers. It drives some of my colleagues (in engineering & physics) up the wall. Like hearing sound in space.). It's "easy" to write the impossible, since neither the writer nor the reader have anything in their experience to compare it to properly.

(Note: the following paragraph is speculation on the AAA game industry, and the impressions I have received of them)
Depending on the "type" of game, I believe there are other stumbling blocks, generally in the form of marketing & management (that might not believe that a non (X Y Z) character will sell well) that will push for the "standard" if race, sex & sexuality are irrelevant. They might also "doll-up" female characters without any input from the writing staff. As others have pointed out, the writing is rather perfunctory, and not the basis of a AAA game.

Anyway, as others have pointed out, more diversity among developers would help (since they would have a different baseline). There are also corporate culture issues that probably need to be dealt with, but the video game industry seems to be one of those where the powerful people think their clients are idiots, so I dont expect much...

 

[Thaluikhain]

If the sexuality is irrelevant in the context of the game then what is the point of designating the protagonist as gay?

What's the point of designating the protagonist as not being gay, either?

Now, certainly, there are lots of games where it could go either way, but very many will be on the assumption that the protagonist is straight, even if it's not a plot point.

Romance in games is itself a tiny niche thing present in a miniscule percentage of games as a whole.

Er...what?

A miniscule percentage of games have a hero with a girlfriend? I think it's a bit bigger than that...

 

[gargantual]

And Heeeeere we go again. Oh well. My two cents.

Rhianna Pratchett inferred on one of these threads, why games have bad writing and poorly realized characters. The story is put in as second fiddle after the levels and all 3D assets are already built, and they're asked as writing consultants to fill in the blanks.

Where if they had more creative input from the very inception and pre-production of a AAA game, games would be likely to have more fleshed out and consistent character development, and narrative that reflects the mechanics and game objectives properly.

Any character can look confusing, bad or unintentionally marginalized when development priorities are THAT mixed up.

That's a good point. The segmentation of departments is a real thing.

But it's a stupid thing. If developers like Naughty Dog can make a totally cohesive, flowing game with real-seeming characters then why can't other companies? Or hell, even cutscenes that make sense in comparison to the gameplay.

Of course, I'm not trying to say all companies need to be Naughty Dog, or even that every game needs to be so story-driven. But I find the segmented-department games often come across feeling messy and not well-put together.

Naughty Dog focuses first on motivations and personality and then secondly the visual aspects of a character which one would think should be the default for all character creation. If an avatar heavily telegraphs a certain appearance or attitude, it would beg the question whats their angle, or does that say about them as character and how will that affect the plot at large.

But I would assume Naughty Dog has reasonable pre-production planning, with AAA budgets being what they are, because disjointed production can ruin elements of a narrative action game that are meant to give characters context. If everyone is working in a tunnel, People do their mocap here, and the action programmers do their thing without everyone regularly checking back on what game actions or objectives are appropriate given the character's status in the story, or predetermined events, then there will be overlap.

Its better if mechanics, story and distribution of game content are decided and prototyped universally from the VERY beginning across all depts. This is what RAGE's lack of vision or Tomb Raider's moments of ludonarrative dissonance struggled from.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

If the sexuality is irrelevant in the context of the game then what is the point of designating the protagonist as gay?

What's the point of designating the protagonist as not being gay, either?

Now, certainly, there are lots of games where it could go either way, but very many will be on the assumption that the protagonist is straight, even if it's not a plot point.

No protagonist is "designated as not being gay". The sexuality is entirely irrelevant. It makes no difference in the context of the gameplay or story what sexual orientation the main character has. An assumption is assumption. Make your own assumption. If you want your blank-slate everyman to be gay, power to you. The point is that for most games, a characters sexuality is entirely irrelevant. And if it were relevant for some reason, what game would I be playing that the protagonist is defined as gay? Would Garret being gay have made Thief a different game, or a better one? Would it have sold more?

Romance in games is itself a tiny niche thing present in a miniscule percentage of games as a whole.

Er...what?

A miniscule percentage of games have a hero with a girlfriend? I think it's a bit bigger than that...

Yes, miniscule. First there are entire genres that can be dismissed outright...driving, sport, RTS, indie (if one can call it a genre), puzzle, multiplayer shooter, MMOS, platform and sim. So in broad terms we're left with adventure, RPG, action/shooters and sandboxes. Admittedly those are large genres, but where do you see sexuality fitting into these games? How many of them need or have a story in which the character's sexuality is relevant? Maybe Secret of Monkey Island could've had a gay Guybrush? Would it have sold as well? Would it have made the game better?

I'm as liberal as they come and I don't see a benefit or anything to be gained by having more gay protagonists. It is such a niche thing and so irrelevant to the majority of games. Who would buy the game? Parents for their kids? People only interested in the latest military shooter? MMO players? It would appeal to so few people and sell to even less.

I have no issue that Adam Jensenn for example "defaulted" to straight. Megan is nothing more than a plot device anyway and DXHR wasn't about romance. I would've had a harder time identifying with if I, the player were trying to save a boyfriend instead of a girlfriend seeing as I'm not gay. So wasn't making Megan a she a better move in that game? Would being a he have made the game better? Homosexuals are a small minority, so how can one justify catering specifically to such a tiny minority when Indians, Chinese, Muslims and Catholics, for each of which there are over 1 billion in the world, are not catered for? Why shouldn't more protagonists be Catholic or Chinese?

Describe a game that gamers would play as a gay protagonist, where their sexuality (or the need to define it) is important to either the story or the gameplay. Why would I play it over Left 4 Dead 2 or XCOM? Who's the target audience? Would making them straight sell more copies? Would you personally fund the development of such a title if it was pitched to you?

 

[Artina89]

Like many others, I would just like to see more interesting protagonists, period. To me it doesn't matter the gender, sexuality, ethnicity or whatever, of the character, as long as I am finding the character engaging and I care about the story and said characters motivations. For example, I love both Francis York Morgan and Emily Wyatt in Deadly premonition. I love their backstories and I love how their relationship progresses as you play through the game. In my view we need more characters like that.

 

[StriderShinryu]

Both should be the goal but I think it's important to start with just getting better representation across the board. And that doesn't just mean female characters but characters of different races, backgrounds, sexual orientation, etc. Once we have more characters of all kinds in games, better writing will come for all of them.

I also think there's a bit of a fallacy in trying to play the two off as if they are opposite sides of the same coin. Yes there is a natural ability to write better if you know what you're actually writing about, but skill at writing characters is something that can and should be developed regardless of what character you're writing.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

As an aside, defining Chell as an interesting or strong, female character, or as a female protagonist is wrong. She is not a great female protagonist though frequently crops up in the list of such. She is a floating gun with a female body when viewed through our portals. No voice, no personality, Chell could've been a robot or a ghost for all the difference it would make.

But if that is all it takes to make people happy that they're getting their desired female protagonists then power to them.

 

[Something Amyss]

It's funny though how this thread says one thing, but market reality [http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/games-with-female-heroes-dont-sell-because-publishers-dont-support-them] shows something entirely different. Games with male-only protagonists sell 75% better on average than those with female-only leads and oddly 25% better than games which offer a choice.

One can moan about lack of female leads all they want but the reality is that in general if the game had a male lead it would sell better.

*ahem* Right from the report you quoted....

?Games with a female only protagonist, got half the spending of female optional, and only 40 percent of the marketing budget of male-led games. Less than that, actually,? Zatkin said.

So the "market reality" is only reality if you ignore the other relevant factors. Is it shocking that games that received significantly less marketing don't sell as well? Come on.

What is the role of the protagonists homosexuality in the context of the game?

What's the role of the protagonist's heterosexuality in the context of the game? Even in games where the knuckle-dragging of "save your girlfriend" is excluded, heterosexuality is everywhere. And nobody complains about relevance. This argument is inane and relies on a one-sided pretense.

Er...what?

A miniscule percentage of games have a hero with a girlfriend? I think it's a bit bigger than that...

Or heroes who show interest in the opposite sex. Or who flirt with members of the opposite sex. There is no sexuality in games unless gays shoehorn it in.

Which is the equivalent of saying there's no gender in games unless women force it in, but I'm being silly, so why not go all in on the silly?

 

[Something Amyss]

As an aside, defining Chell as an interesting or strong, female character, or as a female protagonist is wrong. She is not a great female protagonist though frequently crops up in the list of such. She is a floating gun with a female body when viewed through our portals. No voice, no personality, Chell could've been a robot or a ghost for all the difference it would make.

But if that is all it takes to make people happy that they're getting their desired female protagonists then power to them.

Yes, but how is that different than Gordon Freeman?

 

[mecegirl]

Whilst I agree entirely with your general point, we live in a society where the majority of people are white and heterosexual. If you lived in India, the default in the media would be Indian, in Japan, Japenese. Even if our media better reflected actual society, which I acknowledge that it doesn't and should, then white and heterosexual would still be the default.

How does that explain away the male part of her statement? Because there should at least be more White female protagonists according to your logic.

It doesn't, which is why I didn't mention it. My hypothesis on why male is the default is much more complicated and concerns, amongst other thing, history and demographics (women are the default in certain genres and medias) and I didn't want to write an excessively long post. Suffice to say I agree that more diversity would be a good thing. Most protagonists don't need to be white or male for them to work and I would like to see other demographics better represented. I can't remember ever playing a game with a black male protagonist (are there any obvious ones?) except for Skyrim and I created him. Also I don't think I've ever played as a gay character. That seems ridiculous to me.

I can't remember any black male protagonists except for Grand Theft Auto. Mostly they are side characters if they exist at all. Resident Evil 5 could have dropped Chris if they wanted too and just had the African members of the BSAA handle the job. But I understand why they didn't for marketing reasons.

I think that it only bothers me when the setting is actually diverse. Like when the story is in New York. Or if the story was set in the future. The future especially because it looks like there must have been a war where half the women and all the racial minorities were killed off... So that's why all the humans who migrated to mars are White men. The most organic way I can think to combat this is to push stories written by underrepresented groups into the mainstream. There are already a good backlog of such stories, it's just that investors aren't interested. Movies are the worse with this. They are adapting books into movies anyway. They could if they wanted just adapt a movie that has some diversity built in (and not white wash any of the characters, or feel the need to race swap any of the characters because they realized too late that they picked a book with no diversity).

But this article explains the issue better than I ever could. It's mostly about books but I would not be surprised if other forms of media have the same dynamic.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/danieljoseolder/diversity-is-not-enough

 

[lunavixen]

The thing is, we need both, we need more games with female protagonists and we need better written characters overall, more gender, racial and sexual diversities can help the story by making the character a living breathing part of it, not just some prettyboy or meathead that's as dynamic as thin cardboard and piloted from setpiece to setpiece.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

What's the role of the protagonist's heterosexuality in the context of the game?

That is the point I am making. It plays no role since it doesn't even come up. I'm not playing the part of a straight character, I'm playing the part of a character. There is no sexuality in the majority of games.

And even still, the majority of the world is heterosexual. Why shouldn't video games in which the protagonist's sexuality is relevant reflect that, unless a game is being specifically targeted at homosexual gamers? And if that is the case, why spend millions on developing a game that excludes 95% of the potential audience?

As an aside, defining Chell as an interesting or strong, female character, or as a female protagonist is wrong. She is not a great female protagonist though frequently crops up in the list of such. She is a floating gun with a female body when viewed through our portals. No voice, no personality, Chell could've been a robot or a ghost for all the difference it would make.

But if that is all it takes to make people happy that they're getting their desired female protagonists then power to them.

Yes, but how is that different than Gordon Freeman?

It is no different, that is precisely the point.

 

[Mikejames]

Yes, more female characters would be nice and so would more complex and well-written characters.
I don't understand why so many people seem to think that these two are mutually exclusive.

Seconded. It doesn't have to be seen as filling some established quota as far as character types go, but how would more variety and diversification hurt a story's depth? Age, gender, race, skillset; developers shouldn't have to fear exploring a wider range.

 

[Scow2]

And Heeeeere we go again. Oh well. My two cents.

Rhianna Pratchett inferred on one of these threads, why games have bad writing and poorly realized characters. The story is put in as second fiddle after the levels and all 3D assets are already built, and they're asked as writing consultants to fill in the blanks.

Where if they had more creative input from the very inception and pre-production of a AAA game, games would be likely to have more fleshed out and consistent character development, and narrative that reflects the mechanics and game objectives properly.

Any character can look confusing, bad or unintentionally marginalized when development priorities are THAT mixed up.

I wouldn't say that those priorities are messed up, given that the 3d Assets and level design are things that make a game a, y'know, game.