Do we need more female protagonists, or just more interesting ones?

[Something Amyss]

It plays no role since it doesn't even come up.

Unless you're saving your girlfriend, have a girlfriend, flirt with ladies....Heterosexuality is all over games.

And even still, the majority of the world is heterosexual. Why shouldn't video games in which the protagonist's sexuality is relevant reflect that, unless a game is being specifically targeted at homosexual gamers? And if that is the case, why spend millions on developing a game that excludes 95% of the potential audience?

By that logic, why exclude half your audience by including only a male character?

It is no different, that is precisely the point.

So you're critical when Gordon Freeman comes up on best character lists? I'd like to see some evidence of that.

 

[white_wolf]

We need both and this would've already happened if not for the industry's open campaign to stop fem leads from being made Remember Me is just one that got through and told about it but there are many many stories shelved and collecting dust by devs because they stopped trying to pitch or submit games that keep getting rejected or forced to change the leads sex and many story elements because publishers and financial backers don't want fem leads. Well written fem leads would be a huge bonus but the publishers don't like this because its a hit or miss if players don't like this heroine's persona will we have other games that they may like? I would love to have more then 1 or 2 personality types out there for our heroines and heros because the men desperately need it too.

 

[white_wolf]

We need both and this would've already happened if not for the industry's open campaign to stop fem leads from being made Remember Me is just one that got through and told about it but there are many many stories shelved and collecting dust by devs because they stopped trying to pitch or submit games that keep getting rejected or forced to change the leads sex and many story elements because publishers and financial backers don't want fem leads. Well written fem leads would be a huge bonus but the publishers don't like this because its a hit or miss if players don't like this heroine's persona will we have other games that they may like? I would love to have more then 1 or 2 personality types out there for our heroines and heros because the men desperately need it too.

Remember Me was a scam and the sob story was promotion for the game that was being rejected because it was not good. It was a commercial disaster and Capcom who decided to publish it after all the feminist hysteria in the media lost a lot money as the other companies have predicted.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/editorials/reviews/10362-Remember-Me-Review-Sadly-Forgettable ("it's hard to recommend Remember Me at full price" but it's easy to attack publishers for rejecting it)

There's well over 1000 mainstream published games with female protagonists (not merely playable characters, but protagonists). And very many (possibly most) games don't even have a protagonist. The first one with human female in an action game was Baraduke nearly 30 years ago, published by Namco. I bet most 'gaming feminists' never even heard about it.

Yes and theres over 200,000 mainstream published games with male protagonists the only games being actively shelved or turned away with male leads are ones that don't fit the data publishers and backers cling to or they're really really that bad. The games aren't being stopped in pitching or from being funded or from being published cuz male lead unless they fall into specific reasons like the plot is all wrong its not male is the reason however they are with fem lead, its one thing to tell your devs hey this game concept needs to change somethings in the plot or mechanics before we publish this game its another to say hey this game needs to change somethings before we publish it and one of those things is make the woman a man. The industry is stifled to the point if this keeps up they'll crash again you don't need to be dev to see how homogenous the industry is fem leads, with their own titles, with new plots, and new character personas will help ease some of the issues. There is nothing wrong with more diversity devs show they want that, players show they want that, publishers and backers actively stopping that is wrong and is killing the industry.

As for RM a scam to drum up sales? Odd choice I think if I was them I'd want more articles out about how awesome my game is or how unique our concept of future mind re-writting is not lots of sexes publishers pushed us to capcom. They stated those things to highlight an industry problem that is still ongoing. The OP and others aren't stating we want 50 - 90% fem games but really it kills no one to have games with fem leads increase and to bring with them plots and themes that aren't' being covered or are under used.

 

[white_wolf]

As for female characters I would like more characters like Jodie from Beyond two Souls. She to me was the perfect catalyst of how a female character should behave and react to the situation around here. She was interesting and I do say it better than the new version of Laura Croft.

I loved Jodie too she's also dressed appropriately for all her scenes to me she's a complete package of what alot of gamers are asking for on a basic level. I also liked her voice but I do understand those who don't because they envisioned another type on it but as a pre-written character she acts great, is pretty but its never over the top, she's dressed for success, and the situations she's involved in are realistic and plausible for her world even her gravity defining moments work because Aiden so she's not magically leaping for 4 stories on her own like Kusanagi but w/o a cyborg body here it all works I'd love to see more of her. I also liked how the men were portrayed no guy was like Vega just very normal looking and they were allowed to feel and that's a huge step for the men's portrayal too its what some men have asked for too to be more normal not having the extreams of brick or psycho for their emotions.

 

[briankoontz]

With the recent increase of Internet Feminists and White Knights of shining fingers, I know at this point I have been labeled a myriad of things, but lets try not to name call and try to have a nice discussion of the topic at hand. so, What do you think?

The major problem is that 80% of mainstream games and half of amateur games feature killing (usually some form of combat which results in death) as the primary mode of gameplay. This has terrible repercussions on characterization of both genders in gaming.

The solution is for game developers to care about gamers as people, enough to give them great characters who only happen to kill or even enter combat if that fits in with their situation.

Right now game developers know before they ever develop a character that they're going to make a game where the player directs the protagonist to kill 1,000 people, or monsters, or whatever. So the character becomes a slave to that need. There's no such thing as a "normal person" protagonist when you develop the game knowing the protagonist is going to kill 1000 monsters - obviously they are a special, heroic person who saves the hapless villagers from their own cowardice.

When someone sets out to kill 1000 monsters in reality they might kill a few if they're lucky and then are murdered by the monsters, in self-defense. Heroism in reality is a death wish, and that forms the basis for the underlying, unstated characterization of most protagonists in gaming, regardless of their gender.

The glory of the heroic deeds counterposes the depression of the death wish, and the killing of more and more monsters without dying (difficulty level adjustment and reload function carefully ignored) leads to a sense of impunity in the character. The monsters, or "monsters", know the hero is coming to kill them and they still can't stop him or her, resulting in their slaughter, effectively genocide of whatever falls under the "monster" category. (In slasher horror movies the killer considers the people he kills monsters, with often more justification than occurs in games. But because the protagonist in games is attractive and the killer in slasher films ugly, we know who is the hero and who is the villain). This genocide was given clear expression as far back as the early days of dungeons and dragons, where players would talk of "cleaning out" dungeons, not just cleaning it out of loot but cleansing the dungeon of the evil monsters by means of murdering them.

A question to ask is what gamers and developers are getting out of all of this - why is genocide against "monsters" or "the enemy" so utterly important for them to experience time and time again with only minor variations that they are unable to play or create games which they themselves know very well would have far better developed characters, both male and female.

If we can finally, after so very very long, finally solve this issue and get murder under control in gaming, we'll find it much easier to create good female characters, as literature has given us many, despite the centuries of male domination. If 80% of literature was about combat and killing, many fewer great characters of both gender would have been written.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

With the recent increase of Internet Feminists and White Knights of shining fingers, I know at this point I have been labeled a myriad of things, but lets try not to name call and try to have a nice discussion of the topic at hand. so, What do you think?

The major problem is that 80% of mainstream games and half of amateur games feature killing (usually some form of combat which results in death) as the primary mode of gameplay. This has terrible repercussions on characterization of both genders in gaming.

The solution is for game developers to care about gamers as people, enough to give them great characters who only happen to kill or even enter combat if that fits in with their situation.

Right now game developers know before they ever develop a character that they're going to make a game where the player directs the protagonist to kill 1,000 people, or monsters, or whatever. So the character becomes a slave to that need. There's no such thing as a "normal person" protagonist when you develop the game knowing the protagonist is going to kill 1000 monsters - obviously they are a special, heroic person who saves the hapless villagers from their own cowardice.

When someone sets out to kill 1000 monsters in reality they might kill a few if they're lucky and then are murdered by the monsters, in self-defense. Heroism in reality is a death wish, and that forms the basis for the underlying, unstated characterization of most protagonists in gaming, regardless of their gender.

The glory of the heroic deeds counterposes the depression of the death wish, and the killing of more and more monsters without dying (difficulty level adjustment and reload function carefully ignored) leads to a sense of impunity in the character. The monsters, or "monsters", know the hero is coming to kill them and they still can't stop him or her, resulting in their slaughter, effectively genocide of whatever falls under the "monster" category. (In slasher horror movies the killer considers the people he kills monsters, with often more justification than occurs in games. But because the protagonist in games is attractive and the killer in slasher films ugly, we know who is the hero and who is the villain). This genocide was given clear expression as far back as the early days of dungeons and dragons, where players would talk of "cleaning out" dungeons, not just cleaning it out of loot but cleansing the dungeon of the evil monsters by means of murdering them.

A question to ask is what gamers and developers are getting out of all of this - why is genocide against "monsters" or "the enemy" so utterly important for them to experience time and time again with only minor variations that they are unable to play or create games which they themselves know very well would have far better developed characters, both male and female.

If we can finally, after so very very long, finally solve this issue and get murder under control in gaming, we'll find it much easier to create good female characters, as literature has given us many, despite the centuries of male domination. If 80% of literature was about combat and killing, many fewer great characters of both gender would have been written.

Gaming is currently playing to strength. If you have an awesome new set of mechanics that aren't combat and space traversal then it would be helpful to actually outline what you have in mind. Or is that for the boffins to work out?

1) In most games story is something only small number of players actually pay any attention beyond what is needed to understand what to do. Gears of War 2 "Dom is searching for his wife" is prime example of that. There are tons of story behind that (equally uninteresting to me) but few cared. People play that because of action. I love Uncharted games, but really, story is not at all important. I can't remember any details now even If I played all 3 PS3 ones and dug up every last bit in them. In those game characteristics of PC is important not character.

Can't speak to the numbers, but that's more or less how I play most action games. Really more concerned with having a set of rules and systems that are fun and fair than a sad back-story and ham-fisted foreshadowing.

Every time I read someone say that the writing is uniformly bad, I feel a little bad for the writers in the industry. Maybe good videogame writing and good film or book writing aren't the same thing. There's a different set of demands for each.

 

[gargantual]

With the recent increase of Internet Feminists and White Knights of shining fingers, I know at this point I have been labeled a myriad of things, but lets try not to name call and try to have a nice discussion of the topic at hand. so, What do you think?

The major problem is that 80% of mainstream games and half of amateur games feature killing (usually some form of combat which results in death) as the primary mode of gameplay. This has terrible repercussions on characterization of both genders in gaming.

The solution is for game developers to care about gamers as people, enough to give them great characters who only happen to kill or even enter combat if that fits in with their situation.

Right now game developers know before they ever develop a character that they're going to make a game where the player directs the protagonist to kill 1,000 people, or monsters, or whatever. So the character becomes a slave to that need. There's no such thing as a "normal person" protagonist when you develop the game knowing the protagonist is going to kill 1000 monsters - obviously they are a special, heroic person who saves the hapless villagers from their own cowardice.

When someone sets out to kill 1000 monsters in reality they might kill a few if they're lucky and then are murdered by the monsters, in self-defense. Heroism in reality is a death wish, and that forms the basis for the underlying, unstated characterization of most protagonists in gaming, regardless of their gender.

The glory of the heroic deeds counterposes the depression of the death wish, and the killing of more and more monsters without dying (difficulty level adjustment and reload function carefully ignored) leads to a sense of impunity in the character. The monsters, or "monsters", know the hero is coming to kill them and they still can't stop him or her, resulting in their slaughter, effectively genocide of whatever falls under the "monster" category. (In slasher horror movies the killer considers the people he kills monsters, with often more justification than occurs in games. But because the protagonist in games is attractive and the killer in slasher films ugly, we know who is the hero and who is the villain). This genocide was given clear expression as far back as the early days of dungeons and dragons, where players would talk of "cleaning out" dungeons, not just cleaning it out of loot but cleansing the dungeon of the evil monsters by means of murdering them.

A question to ask is what gamers and developers are getting out of all of this - why is genocide against "monsters" or "the enemy" so utterly important for them to experience time and time again with only minor variations that they are unable to play or create games which they themselves know very well would have far better developed characters, both male and female.

If we can finally, after so very very long, finally solve this issue and get murder under control in gaming, we'll find it much easier to create good female characters, as literature has given us many, despite the centuries of male domination. If 80% of literature was about combat and killing, many fewer great characters of both gender would have been written.

Combat and conflict are the easier things to systemize than authentic complex human relationship in gameplay, and frankly as plot in any narrative. It would better if combat didn't have such a binary skew of hero vs villain but understood everyones motives and instead cast the protagonist as a SAFER BET, and the antagonists as the WORST DEAL for society at large. Theres a way to communicate through the violence that I see in stuff like martial arts or artistic action media, that western media in its spectacle often misses.

Villains are depicted as bowling pins and not as active destructive forces to the balance of the game's world. They should be the 'initiators' and 'creators' of most of the gameplay violence appear like a rabid killer beast loose in one's home, instead of a docile subject that could be reasoned with. The protagonist should always be the poor guy put on janitorial duty.

People's goals are different and the story should be greyer to realize that for all characters, but there'll always be those who see stirring chaos as the best means to get what they want, while the rest of us fall in line to bide our time.

What does an armed enforcer call an armed individual that almost killed them. A hostile? If theres no time to establish the complexity of human relationship in those near death moments its pretty much all the explanation a player needs. The whos and whats are determined after What is a more believable goal of a protagonist than world saving? Self preservation, and that can involve serious conflict.

Perhaps the problem with today is that combat is not paced reasonably to give space to the world and allow for buildup suspense or context. Or that 1000 dumb enemies could easily be cut down to 30 smart enemies with better AI and waypoints.

Call of Duty these past years have been too consolidated in its combat. The Half-life and or Crytek/Ubisoft games are somewhat better as the former also focused on obstacles, puzzles and discovery, and in the latter you could avoid a lot of needless deadly battles thru stealth.

A far better solution would be if games allowed for some constructive activity or sense of building WITHIN violent war based games. There would be greater context, the players would experience a greater sense of loss or fear of loss when they had to participate in obligatory combat, and would know what they're fighting to preserve instead of having it told to them. XCOM Enemy Unknown had that with its character preparation.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I think when you're talking "protagonists" you're usually better off including a tabula rasa who can be any gender and whose personality can be largely inferred by the actions/dialogue choices of the player, and save your rich characterization for NPCs. Not that you don't occasionally need a heavily scripted protagonist to tell a very specific story, but I can't think of too many people who would choose Booker DeWitt, or Lara Croft as their "favorite" character over, say, "THEIR Shepard". And I have a few friends who won't even touch a game if the main character is gender/appearance locked and does not appeal to them. One of my oldest friends won't touch The Witcher with a 10 foot pole because Geralt "looks like Edgar Winter".

But could gaming use more female characters, and better written ones in general? Obviously, yes. This is something that has improved markedly in recent years though.

 

[The Lunatic]

I'm entirely uncaring towards what gender the protagonist is, as long as it's well written.

Forced female protagonists don't work. I'd rather a character be made from a creative idea, rather than a requirement to fit a quota.

 

[Jeyl]

Both. Otherwise if you picked the second choice, you're just saying that female characters aren't worth having their own stories.

 

[Nomanslander]

How about trying your hand at something that's even more rarely done. Have him or her be black or Hispanic... lol.



Although I gotta say, if the first idea you have when it comes to this matter is, "what if Indiana Jones had boobies?" You're really just starting off on the wrong foot. And neither do I like the whole "well if it's a she instead of a he, she better look like Ellen Page so not to offend anyone," because then you're not only starting off on the wrong foot, but tripping over it and landing right on your face.

But in all honesty, having the character be a female for the sake of more female protagonist really shouldn't be the case. It should just come natural. Ones of the reason why I love Chell from Portal or Faith in Mirror's Edge is because you don't even really think about them being "Oh shit female with boobies" until you really think about it. Which for me was right now when I asked myself "how many females protagonist do I know" and tried to get Lara Croft's tits out of mind. But then again the whole "Oh shit! It's a she!" can work beautifully too, take Samus Aran for an example.

But then again some more, that's only because we didn't even know she was that until the end of the game... well... back in the 80s at least.

 

[DementedSheep]

We need both and this would've already happened if not for the industry's open campaign to stop fem leads from being made Remember Me is just one that got through and told about it but there are many many stories shelved and collecting dust by devs because they stopped trying to pitch or submit games that keep getting rejected or forced to change the leads sex and many story elements because publishers and financial backers don't want fem leads. Well written fem leads would be a huge bonus but the publishers don't like this because its a hit or miss if players don't like this heroine's persona will we have other games that they may like? I would love to have more then 1 or 2 personality types out there for our heroines and heros because the men desperately need it too.

Remember Me was a scam and the sob story was promotion for the game that was being rejected because it was not good. It was a commercial disaster and Capcom who decided to publish it after all the feminist hysteria in the media lost a lot money as the other companies have predicted.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/editorials/reviews/10362-Remember-Me-Review-Sadly-Forgettable ("it's hard to recommend Remember Me at full price" but it's easy to attack publishers for rejecting it)

There's well over 1000 mainstream published games with female protagonists (not merely playable characters, but protagonists). And very many (possibly most) games don't even have a protagonist. The first one with human female in an action game was Baraduke nearly 30 years ago, published by Namco. I bet most 'gaming feminists' never even heard about it.

Gender roles conquered with the power of Engrish !! You're the man now, dog (*****?)

And even still, the majority of the world is heterosexual. Why shouldn't video games in which the protagonist's sexuality is relevant reflect that, unless a game is being specifically targeted at homosexual gamers? And if that is the case, why spend millions on developing a game that excludes 95% of the potential audience?

By that logic, why exclude half your audience by including only a male character?

What 'half your audience'?

Are seriously bringing up that list again?
1000 games since the 80s across all genres including outright porn and cheesecakes games, most of which are trash and without any number to compare it to. Shit guys! Equality reached! Call the feminists!

 

[CyberSinner]

As for female characters I would like more characters like Jodie from Beyond two Souls. She to me was the perfect catalyst of how a female character should behave and react to the situation around here. She was interesting and I do say it better than the new version of Laura Croft.

I loved Jodie too she's also dressed appropriately for all her scenes to me she's a complete package of what alot of gamers are asking for on a basic level. I also liked her voice but I do understand those who don't because they envisioned another type on it but as a pre-written character she acts great, is pretty but its never over the top, she's dressed for success, and the situations she's involved in are realistic and plausible for her world even her gravity defining moments work because Aiden so she's not magically leaping for 4 stories on her own like Kusanagi but w/o a cyborg body here it all works I'd love to see more of her. I also liked how the men were portrayed no guy was like Vega just very normal looking and they were allowed to feel and that's a huge step for the men's portrayal too its what some men have asked for too to be more normal not having the extreams of brick or psycho for their emotions.

Exactly. It isn't just female roles that have been hypersexualized in the video game industry. I don't think the question is simply boiled down to: More interesting females or more female protags.

I think the bigger question has more to do with the whole overarching: More interesting characters

I want to be able to play male or female characters where is it okay to feel, think, and be something other than murder machines with guns

 

[white_wolf]

Yes and theres over 200,000 mainstream published games with male protagonists

What is the source of that figure?

The games aren't being stopped in pitching or from being funded or from being published cuz male lead unless they fall into specific reasons like the plot is all wrong its not male is the reason however they are with fem lead, its one thing to tell your devs hey this game concept needs to change somethings in the plot or mechanics before we publish this game its another to say hey this game needs to change somethings before we publish it and one of those things is make the woman a man.

"The games aren't being stopped in pitching or from being funded or from being published cuz" female leads too.

It's a meme that originated with the Remember Me scam and the successful white knight panic over it.

There are lots of really, REALLY shitty mainstream games with female protagonists, relased even despite being totally unplayable crap.

The games like Excalibur 2555 - so bad and forgotten it doesn't even have a Wikipedia article, but here it is for you:
http://uk.ign.com/games/excalibur-2555-ad/ps-2049
http://www.gamespot.com/reviews/excalibur-2555-ad-review/1900-2535873/

Even https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_video_games_notable_for_negative_reception include the likes of Zelda's Adventure, Plumbers Don't Wear Ties, Catfight, Charlie's Angels, and Lula 3D. Not even starring an absolutely awful piece of shit can stop a female protagonist from being published. It SHOULD, but even that is not guaranteed.

Where is the source that RM statement on their reasoning for their rejection was a lie to drum up sales? The last I saw capcom wants this game to be a trilogy, I've yet to see them correct that.

Last I checked devs are able to write crap its just with the budgets now reaching critical mass most publishers and backers aren't going to let them go through a small team however can do what they want still doesn't mean we should halt all games with fem leads for A - AAA or maybe because of male lead games like Double Dragon, MK special forces, leisure suit Larry, and Rouge Warrior by your logic these should've stopped the industry dead in its tracks so we should stop producing all games now because some developers are shit writers. But no they kept making games lots failed some didn't and when fem games come out if more fail then succeed publishers and backers go see women don't sell they don't consider how or why like was it the plot was too crazy/sexist/stupid? Or the mechanics where horrid? Or did we not try to market this game? Instead of analyzing why and learning the lessons and try again they just go girls suck and lets make another shooter. There are games out there which were good with fem leads Mirrors Edge, Tomb Raider, Portal, Clementine's Walking Dead, and Beyond 2 souls, these games should be encouraging the industry to let loose those stupid limitations its doing.

Instead there are devs posting to articles stating they get denied one comment I found who claimed a few of his past projects stated his team actually just gave up trying to pitch fem games because they kept getting shot down they'd waste time making artwork, a plot, and still they'd be told cool plot but the girl needs to go, another dev stated he's got hundreds of fem hero stories collecting dust because his company doesn't even want to hear them. So we have all these natural stories being stopped but I guess these men should shut up and make their own company so they can make these games.

There is no difference between men and women for what they play and how they play it but unlike men some women's immersion into the game via the character, themes presented is being limited by how the games are being made. That can change by making more fem leads that deviate from the 2 arch type mold the men are currently suffering from aka making them more interesting in persona or their backgrounds or what their goal is and adding themes,characters,ect to games that both genders would also find engaging which there are lots of things both sexes have even data wise to show shared interests. People seem to think adding more or thinking about things they want to add somehow kills the industry off faster then its doing by its current self when adding things that are dual appealing actually helps.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

The proportion of female protagonists today accurately reflects what the overall gaming playerbase wants.

I'll agree with games in general needing better writing, improvements are always welcome.