Do you believe in ghosts or the paranormal?

[AndyFromMonday]

People had positive results being raped by ghost Hitler. Other people think that they imagined these positive results but those other people are making up reasons for things which do not fit their opinion to not be true.

BY YOUR OWN LOGIC, you must take me seriously. I'm going to say this again, do you see why people ridicule the paranormal or am I just wasting my time?

There's better ways to put that into words. Just because another forum member gets worked up, doesn't mean others should descend to the same level.

It's far better to, drily, point out how none of those 'positive experiences' have ever been documented, outside from the well-known placebo-effect, despite of hundreds of moonlighters and con artists having a good motive to prove their case.

I find it much easier to address a persons faulty belief system by creating a ridiculous premise similar if not identical to their own and pointing out its flaws hoping that ultimately the person I'm debating will agree that my fictive premise uses faulty logic then pointing out that by reaching the conclusion that my logic is faulty they have inadvertently proven that the logic upon which their own belief system is based upon is also faulty.

I would be happy to address his arguments but unfortunately I've heard them all before. In fact, I've heard them thousands of times and frankly discussing the same bullshit everytime I debate someone feels more like a chore than a stimulating discussion. Seeing new arguments for ideas that have been previously debunked is at the very least interesting and entertaining but this is not the case today.

well if the person in question is glad to pay the price and gets positive results then i have no objections

How can you have no objections? They're scamming people by promising to cure any ailment using some sort of bullshit system. Instead of using that money to find an actual cure for whatever ails them people give it to piece of shit scammers that contribute absolutely nothing towards helping them.

 

[Navvan]

First off, I would love if paranormal things existed. I use to read all sorts of books on the subject, and do some hunting of my own. Sadly I never found any evidence both in my personal experience or in those books. I've had all kinds of "experiences", but none of them can't be explained through already established phenomena.

The sad fact is there is no evidence for anything paranormal. This means faith is required to believe in the paranormal, and I do not partake in faith to help describe the world around me.

So no I don't believe in the paranormal, but I have no qualms with the idea of it existing.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

not trying to be mean but all she may be doing is placebo... if one belives X is true your body may react as it was real, taking the benifits such as healing or feeling better.

Alright, you have a valid point. But even if she isn't actually doing anything, if people are getting real, positive results from her work then she still gets real, positive results and deserves her money and clients. Even if she just gives extremely effective placebos, her clients do get their money's worth.

No, they don't. Her patients get no long term relief, they get a short term relief and when the problem is back they'll most likely be back for another "session". The thing is it's 200 dollars per session and that money could go towards much better things than feeding yourself sugar pills but I'm guessing you're the sort of person who sees no problem with people marketing sugar pills as cancer cures and charging outrageous prices as long as the patient feels better.

 

[Aqua Trenoble]

Is that the best 'argument' you can bring against all I've said? English is only one of five language that I speak. At least I know when my capslock is on or off, something that we, evidently, can't say about every forum member in this topic.

All this time you've been avoiding saying anything about what we should call it if you rob people of their money, by selling them something which is not true, or at most, the effect of a listening ear, or the placebo-effect. I, as I've said, call that fraud. I also call it dangerous because I know such spiritual moonlighters often damage people psychologically.

Earning money through that is just plain wrong. Actually, I'd respect a regular con artist more because they don't bother to deny or justify their scams.

It's NOT my only argument! It isn't even an argument! It's just me complaining about your spelling! Now that you have explained its source, I apologize and will not lampoon your grasp of the English language any more. I know when my capslock is on and off (though I actually just hold down shift whilst typing to duplicate the effect), I put things in capitals to make them more visible. In case you didn't notice, I jump schizophrenically from point to point. Because of this tendency, I feel the need to emphasize some areas of my comment.

I used the word fraud! If you go to the top of the page you will see the words "fraudulent behavior!" I completely agree that a con artist attempting to heal sexual abuse is committing fraud!

HavoK 09 made a good point, and my response to him shall be reiterated here.

But even if she isn't actually doing anything, if people are getting real, positive results from her work then she still gets real, positive results and deserves her money and clients. Even if she just gives extremely effective placebos, her clients do get their money's worth.

It's possible that she doesn't manipulate energy or do anything supernatural but whether that is the case or not, her clients get positive results. I'm not even going to assert that she's doing supernatural things. All I'm going to say now is that she is not a con artist, she does get results, and all of us really need to leave this topic alone now.

 

[OmniscientOstrich]

I believe that within the thousands of galaxies the universe there is a good chance that there exists at least one other sentient lifeform. Though I also believe that we will never come into contact with them, as Andromeda the closest galaxy to the Milky Way is 2 million lightyears away, so that's not gonna happen. That's it, if you consider that believing in the paranormal then yes I suppose I do.

 

[Kayla Herrera]

Take a picture of it. Post it up. I'm having a hard time believing your ghost tree hypothesis.

Oh, and your logic is flawed - but I'll leave that up to someone else. I'm too tired to get into it right now.

I don't have to prove anything. I know what happened. Trust me if I had a picture or sound recording even, it'd be here. But I just missed the moment. I'm not trying to sway anyone here, it's interesting hearing the INTELLIGENT opinions, for or against the subject. No one likes a know-it-all, now

 

[Patrick Dare]

GODDAMNIT. WHAT. I. AM. SAYING. IS.

People had positive results with healers. Other people think that they imagined these positive results. These other people are making up reasons for things which do not fit their opinions to not be true.

DO. YOU. UNDERSTAND?

People experience "positive" results from all sorts of things (or claim to). It doesn't mean those things actually work. Sorry to shatter your world view but alternative medicine has long since been debunked. You mom doesn't have magical healing powers. There are things like the placebo effect, people outright lying, believing they have been healed of something they never had, etc. Even if there is someone who had an actual medical issue that disappeared after a session with your mom that doesn't mean she healed it. There is such a thing as coincidence and you might want to check out confirmation bias. How many people have had a session with your mom and had no results? I think part of the problem too is that only people who believe these things work are likely to use them so they're more likely to suffer from the placebo effect, confirmation bias, or fooling themselves into believing it worked (yes this does happen). Plus if you spent $200 on a bogus medical cure that was clearly bullshit how willing would you be to look like and idiot and admit it didn't work?

This sort of medical bullshit is dangerous to people with real medical conditions that could be helped by actual doctors and contributes to the retardation of medical advancement.

 

[Thurston]

Got psychic powers?

Want ONE MILLION dollars?

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

Yes, I understand your professional psychic ethics would not let you claim such a prize for personal gain. You could always donate it to charity.

But I warn you, Mr. Randi and his colleagues include professional skeptics, those versed in the scientific method, stage magicians, and know every trick in the book for faking psychic powers.

Many have approached them. Many have decided to not accept the challenge, as it requires vigourous skeptical investigation in strict controlled laboratory settings. Which seems to cause some psychic powers not to work.

Some have agreed to the conditions, and have determined, with the testers, what "success" would be, and conducted the experiments.

Anyone care to guess the success rate is?

Check this out for the application process. Some of these are just.... wow.

http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=43

 

[chstens]

Let me put it this way, I am a very logical person, but there are two things I "believe in". Aliens and spirits. Aliens is easy to explain, the universe is just so goddamn big that it's logically improbable that we're the only intelligent lifeforms, and lack of proof doesn't mean it isn't there. Now, when it comes to spirits, I've seen and heard just way too much shit to believe otherwise. I've seen pillows fly, heard bagpipes in my house, seen chandeliers in old houses to used to be there 60 years ago, but are no more, had a door hit me on the ass on my way out on a pretty much windless day, woken up in the middle of the night because my bed was shaking, all sorts of shit like that, it's just impossible for me to ignore these events as mere illusions of the mind, because a few of these were very physical.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

I SEE why people ridicule the paranormal, it's because they have been given no evidence that any occurrences are paranormal. The point that I'm trying so very hard to get across is that in some cases there is potential evidence that people ignore sometimes. Can you please stop deliberately missing my point? PLEASE?

I'm glad you understand why people ridicule the paranormal. Now let's deal with "spirit healing". You're saying that people "miss" potential evidence, which makes absolutely no sense because there's no such thing as "potential" evidence for something. "Potential" evidence is not used to prove absolutely anything since potential evidence can be attributed to things that do not deal with what the evidence is supposed to prove.

So, you're advocating "alternative treatments", specifically the "healing" practiced by your mother. If you belief there is evidence that can be attributed to that then please show it. In fact, I think I asked you this during the first few comments towards you but for some reason we derailed.

Bottom line, what evidence is there for alternative "healing" that has not been addressed and debunked?

 

[King Toasty]

Nope. Logically impossible for "paranormal" things to exist, so they don't.

 

[Vandenberg1]

Nope, not all. Although I am a firm believer in human perception of reality being necessarily flawed and there existing many things beyond our ability to reason. But, again, no, not in the traditional sense, I do not believe in that.

I once saw my self sleep and gave myself a blanket from across the house. Woke up with that blanket. However as a Heathen I do believe in earth spirits, the elves and stuff

 

[Kayla Herrera]

Let me put it this way, I am a very logical person, but there are two things I "believe in". Aliens and spirits. Aliens is easy to explain, the universe is just so goddamn big that it's logically improbable that we're the only intelligent lifeforms, and lack of proof doesn't mean it isn't there. Now, when it comes to spirits, I've seen and heard just way too much shit to believe otherwise. I've seen pillows fly, heard bagpipes in my house, seen chandeliers in old houses to used to be there 60 years ago, but are no more, had a door hit me on the ass on my way out on a pretty much windless day, woken up in the middle of the night because my bed was shaking, all sorts of shit like that, it's just impossible for me to ignore these events as mere illusions of the mind, because a few of these were very physical.

I agree with you 100%. when you have experiences like these, it's so hard to believe otherwise. You can't help but wonder. I used to be sketchy on aliens, but as I got older and learned more, it became more believable to me. Because yes, the universe is huge and unexplored. Same goes with Bigfoot. There are large portions of rainforests and wilderness that are completely unexplored where an unknown species could be hiding. It's not impossible and science can back that up. It's no different than the new species of sea creatures we find every day.

 

[King Toasty]

I believe that within the thousands of galaxies the universe there is a good chance that there exists at least one other sentient lifeform. Though I also believe that we will never come into contact with them, as Andromeda the closest galaxy to the Milky Way is 2 million lightyears away, so that's not gonna happen. That's it, if you consider that believing in the paranormal then yes I suppose I do.

That's not paranormal, just logical. For the lifeform bit, anyways. Paranormal includes psychic powers, ghosts, pseudo-scientific faith healing.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

Take a picture of it. Post it up. I'm having a hard time believing your ghost tree hypothesis.

Oh, and your logic is flawed - but I'll leave that up to someone else. I'm too tired to get into it right now.

I don't have to prove anything. I know what happened. Trust me if I had a picture or sound recording even, it'd be here. But I just missed the moment. I'm not trying to sway anyone here, it's interesting hearing the INTELLIGENT opinions, for or against the subject. No one likes a know-it-all, now

Here's one. The brain usually fucks with you. In fact, the brain fucks with you so often you don't even realize it. Every single memory you have is not an accurate representation of what actually happened because memories are often remembered in the way the person who remembers them wants to remember them.

 

[Aqua Trenoble]

No, they don't. Her patients get no long term relief, they get a short term relief and when the problem is back they'll most likely be back for another "session". The thing is it's 200 dollars per session and that money could go towards much better things than feeding yourself sugar pills but I'm guessing you're the sort of person who sees no problem with people marketing sugar pills as cancer cures and charging outrageous prices as long as the patient feels better.

They get their money's worth because their money is making them feel better. If they believe that they have the problem again then that's their own damn fault and they really should do something about that.

If the sugar pills actually do cure the cancer then I don't see any problem with it, though I would suggest that they make their prices more reasonable. A placebo that satisfies the problem isn't really a placebo anymore, it's a faith-based cure. Sure, you could tell people that the cure is their own will, but who would believe that? If people want to pay for a cure that they can duplicate themselves then let them. Stupidity is no crime (though sometimes it really should be).

 

[OmniscientOstrich]

I believe that within the thousands of galaxies the universe there is a good chance that there exists at least one other sentient lifeform. Though I also believe that we will never come into contact with them, as Andromeda the closest galaxy to the Milky Way is 2 million lightyears away, so that's not gonna happen. That's it, if you consider that believing in the paranormal then yes I suppose I do.

That's not paranormal, just logical. For the lifeform bit, anyways. Paranormal includes psychic powers, ghosts, pseudo-scientific faith healing.

I was under the impression that some people associate aliens with the paranormal. As for ghosts and all of that other bollocks no I don't believe in any of that absurd nonsense. Also, What do you mean 'for the lifeform bit, anyways'?

 

[Piorn]

I always hope for something paranormal. Having something unknown makes life much more exciting.

 

[Winthrop]

[HEADING=3]Breaking news: Psychic wins lottery![/HEADING]
Have you ever seen that headline?

[a href="http://www.snopes.com/luck/lottery/dreamwin.asp"]Why yes I have.[/a] That said I am a skeptic. I do not believe in ghosts or psychics or any of that stuff. I don't want to flame and I respect peoples beliefs but don't ghosts violate the laws of thermodynamics?