Do you dislike JRPGs? (Flamewars unwelcome)

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kaioshade

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I absolutely adore JRPGs. All the cliched plots, characters, everything. There is a nice joy i get in them, but i also understand most people consider them stale. My GF constantly says how bland and generic they look and will never understand. But at least she doesn't judge me for playing them.

Recently there has been this large movement of JRPG hate that i cannot fathom. Maybe in a few years we will start seeing articles like "The FPS is dead" or something. Who knows.
 

ImperialSunlight

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My problem with some JRPGs is that they don't stay true to their style. JRPGs are supposed to be about storytelling and that is traditionally done through predetermined characters. But when JRPGs introduce things from western games such as choice/moral systems, it is ineffective because the choice harms the integrity of the story. Additionally, the choices don't have the same power as they do in WRPGs due to the characters being predetermined. This offers an inconsistent experience overall. I don't dislike JRPGs, though, as, when done well, they can be quite unique and interesting. I just think that they are better when they focus on telling a consistent story, as is the point of the genre.

Edit: Also, there are some cliches in both storytelling and aesthetic that JRPGs need to get past.
 

Defense

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RJ 17 said:
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh it's really kinda hard to say. I loved the old-school JRPGs (i.e. Final Fantasy 1-6, Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana...basically everything that Squaresoft USED to be as well as a few other misc. JRPGs), but it just seems like the newer generations of JRPGs are leaving the realm of RPG and just becoming straight up J. By that I mean look at the wardrobes, look at the hairstyles, look at the weapons, look at the settings, etc.
While they have been getting more "fantastic" than realistic, the earlier Final Fantasy games weren't really super realistic themselves.

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/e/ef/Ffv_amano_bartz2.JPG
http://images.wikia.com/es.finalfantasy/images/9/91/Cecil_Amano.jpg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lajgb8SchG1qchhz0o1_400.jpg
http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww348/BushidoPixie/Video%20Games/Final%20Fantasy/Final%20Fantasy%20IV/Rosa/4-rosa-a.jpg

Ignoring the crazy sameface, Amano has a bead and cape fetish. Not all of them are bad, but before Final Fantasy VI just about all of them were pretty silly. Even the full body armor had a lot of shoulder spikes, and while I don't have anything against them, they certainly aren't that practical.
 

RJ 17

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Nov 27, 2011
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Defense said:
RJ 17 said:
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh it's really kinda hard to say. I loved the old-school JRPGs (i.e. Final Fantasy 1-6, Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana...basically everything that Squaresoft USED to be as well as a few other misc. JRPGs), but it just seems like the newer generations of JRPGs are leaving the realm of RPG and just becoming straight up J. By that I mean look at the wardrobes, look at the hairstyles, look at the weapons, look at the settings, etc.
While they have been getting more "fantastic" than realistic, the earlier Final Fantasy games weren't really super realistic themselves.

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/e/ef/Ffv_amano_bartz2.JPG
http://images.wikia.com/es.finalfantasy/images/9/91/Cecil_Amano.jpg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lajgb8SchG1qchhz0o1_400.jpg
http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww348/BushidoPixie/Video%20Games/Final%20Fantasy/Final%20Fantasy%20IV/Rosa/4-rosa-a.jpg

Ignoring the crazy sameface, Amano has a bead and cape fetish. Not all of them are bad, but before Final Fantasy VI just about all of them were pretty silly. Even the full body armor had a lot of shoulder spikes, and while I don't have anything against them, they certainly aren't that practical.
True, but they were a LOT closer to a knight-class character looking like a knight and a caster-class looking like a caster than the more recent installments, and that's my point. :p

I'm just saying that it seems like Square-Enix is trying to make their games look like CGI animes more and more.
 

Don Savik

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kaioshade said:
I absolutely adore JRPGs. All the cliched plots, characters, everything. There is a nice joy i get in them, but i also understand most people consider them stale. My GF constantly says how bland and generic they look and will never understand. But at least she doesn't judge me for playing them.

Recently there has been this large movement of JRPG hate that i cannot fathom. Maybe in a few years we will start seeing articles like "The FPS is dead" or something. Who knows.
Well your viewpoint is a bit demeaning towards non-jrpg lovers. You said "my gf .... AND WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND" Understand what? How amazing the games are compared to everything else in existance? Can't she just...I dunno, not like a genre and be done with it? Just because someone doesn't "get it" like you do, doesn't mean there is a lack of understanding the genre, its just they don't care for it. I know tropes associated with jrpgs and just don't care for them. Simple as that.

I'm seeing a lot of dislike towards wrpgs "lack of main characters", which can be answered simply. You know those extensive character creators that you can make your own character for a more personal experience instead of riding on the coattails of a protagonist you may or may not like so no 2 playthroughs are the same because people like being different because diversity and customization are fun? Think about it for a minute......
 

Defense

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RJ 17 said:
Defense said:
RJ 17 said:
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh it's really kinda hard to say. I loved the old-school JRPGs (i.e. Final Fantasy 1-6, Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana...basically everything that Squaresoft USED to be as well as a few other misc. JRPGs), but it just seems like the newer generations of JRPGs are leaving the realm of RPG and just becoming straight up J. By that I mean look at the wardrobes, look at the hairstyles, look at the weapons, look at the settings, etc.
While they have been getting more "fantastic" than realistic, the earlier Final Fantasy games weren't really super realistic themselves.

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/e/ef/Ffv_amano_bartz2.JPG
http://images.wikia.com/es.finalfantasy/images/9/91/Cecil_Amano.jpg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lajgb8SchG1qchhz0o1_400.jpg
http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww348/BushidoPixie/Video%20Games/Final%20Fantasy/Final%20Fantasy%20IV/Rosa/4-rosa-a.jpg

Ignoring the crazy sameface, Amano has a bead and cape fetish. Not all of them are bad, but before Final Fantasy VI just about all of them were pretty silly. Even the full body armor had a lot of shoulder spikes, and while I don't have anything against them, they certainly aren't that practical.
True, but they were a LOT closer to a knight-class character looking like a knight and a caster-class looking like a caster than the more recent installments, and that's my point. :p

I'm just saying that it seems like Square-Enix is trying to make their games look like CGI animes more and more.
I'd definitely agree with the main series, but the spin-offs like Type-0 and Versus XIII look like they're going back to the PS1 FF era where it's not only fitting but it's actually practical and pretty cool.
 

Rol3x

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I dont like JRPGs at all, these are generalised reasons but apply fairly reliably to the genre as a whole.
I have trouble engaging with alot of the odd stories and wacky characters, some of this is to do with how silly they look, I cant take them seriously with those absurd hair styles and clothes/armour.
When a supposedly normal human leaps 30 feet into the air without any aid, floats then somehow flys at the enemies It makes me think "well, I have no freakin clue how the conventions of this world work" My expectations of the workings of the world don't have to be mundane but if things like that are happening id at least like to know how or why its possible, its immersion shattering flashiness for no reason that I can gather.

Do Japanese people or at least avid JRPG fans find Western rpgs this alien and inexplicable? I often like to explore the other side of this sort of thing and am quite curious.
 

Zouriz

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NiPah said:
TheVioletBandit said:
NiPah said:
Oh I love JRPGs, the Tales series, the Rune Factory series, anything by GUST and Atlus, if it's a JRPG on the PS3 or 360 I'll buy it.

I can't fault most people for disliking JRPGs, just like I can't fault people for disliking other series. I can even see why Yatzee uses them as the butt of some jokes, hell JRPGs make up some of my favorite Unskippables, but in the end I still love them just as much.

I do however get a little erked by the same people using the same old arguments against JRPGs, which leads me to write off any post using the the words "spiky haired angsty teenagers" to label all JRPGs.

Are there JRPGs that don't have any "spiky haired angsty teenagers"? < This isn't a snarky remark. I'm actually curious if there is or not.
Xenosaga, Hyperdimensional Neptunia, Altelier Rorona/Totori, Devil Summoner, Disgaea, La Pucelle: Tactics, Recettear, Dragon Quest 8, those are the ones I've played and can think off the top of my head. They all have the spiky hair thing going, but none of them have an angsty teenager. These days you're seeing a shift in most JRPGs to center around Moe character archtypes, but those are hardly advertised outside of the hardcore niche JRPG fans outside of Japan.

Here's some promotional art for three games NIS America just announced:



The classic angsty teenager character type is pretty much dead, you'll only see them pop up in 5 year old games getting brought over to the states. Hell even Square Enix is doing it (see FF13 X2's main character.
That second one looks interesting. It's about a moe girl with multiple personalities(Egocentric(Main personality), Sadism, Tsundere, Natural, Vigour, Masochistic, Beauty and Cool) trying to take over everything. Sounds crazy enough to work!
 

NiPah

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Zouriz said:
NiPah said:
TheVioletBandit said:
That second one looks interesting. It's about a moe girl with multiple personalities(Egocentric(Main personality), Sadism, Tsundere, Natural, Vigour, Masochistic, Beauty and Cool) trying to take over everything. Sounds crazy enough to work!
I know every one of those games are on my to-buy list, I'm quite interested to see a more experimental indie game from Japan. Plus it's NISA, my favorite game publisher.
 

gyrobot_v1legacy

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Apr 30, 2009
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Aka reduced to making fanservice stuff, at least they can sleep well knowing NISA's artists never drew porn to pay the bills.

I am sorry, I go to Danbooru a lot and an artist's style can define their characters
 

kyogen

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The JRPG genre is not my favorite in general, but there are JRPGs that number among my favorite games. I enjoy the evolution of main series Final Fantasy, Persona 3 and 4 are great games, and Chrono Trigger is still a blast despite its age. And those are just the most mainstream titles.

Square-Enix put out The World Ends With You and is clearly trying to update its larger franchises, Mistwalker has been working on changing the way action is handled, Atlus and Vanillaware have their own takes on making compelling JPRGs, etc. As far as I can see, the genre is not moribund but merely working its way through an awkward transition period along with the rest of the games industry.
 

RaikuFA

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Rol3x said:
I dont like JRPGs at all, these are generalised reasons but apply fairly reliably to the genre as a whole.
I have trouble engaging with alot of the odd stories and wacky characters, some of this is to do with how silly they look, I cant take them seriously with those absurd hair styles and clothes/armour.
When a supposedly normal human leaps 30 feet into the air without any aid, floats then somehow flys at the enemies It makes me think "well, I have no freakin clue how the conventions of this world work" My expectations of the workings of the world don't have to be mundane but if things like that are happening id at least like to know how or why its possible, its immersion shattering flashiness for no reason that I can gather.

Do Japanese people or at least avid JRPG fans find Western rpgs this alien and inexplicable? I often like to explore the other side of this sort of thing and am quite curious.
Actually, Japan loves WRPGs. Skyrim got a 40/40 in Famitsu and a Abridged manga [http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2012/02/27/teach-me-professor-mordin-introduces-mass-effect-in-manga-form] explaining the events in ME1 and 2 was made for Japans release for ME3.

Wanna know how the West responded to those news?

"NOOOOOO, DON'T LET THEM PLAY IT!!! THEY'RE GONNA MAKE PEDO MODS!!!"

I don't mind if you can't get into JRPGs, but spouting crap like the above is just depressing...
 

LilithSlave

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I didn't explain why I like jRPGs in my last post and would like to take this chance to. Even if I have done so many times on this site before.

For starters, I grew up with them. The SNES was the biggest part of my childhood in terms of media of any kind. That means the SNES experience I had soared above movies, tv shows, cartoons, books, and other video game systems. Sure, I may have grown up on the Atari 2600 and NES which revived the video game industry itself. But the SNES made it rise to something plush and adorable, wonderful and amazing. Like a kind of rapture, gaming really ascended to "Ninten" with the SNES or 'Super Famicom'. And it do so with games like Super Mario World, Yoshi's Island, Earthbound, Mario Kart, Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars, The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest, Final Fantasy IV or "II", Final Fantasy VI or "III", Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, Street Fighter, Mega Man X, Kirby Super Star, and way more games than I can go into in one sitting. And important titles that would be important to me later in life because fools decided not to localize them, like Tenchi Muyo Game-Hen, Seiken Densetsu 3, Gundam Wing: Endless Duel, and the rest of the Super Famicom exclusive library.

Of course, these weren't all jRPGs. But a lot of them were. And they were also arguable my most memorable experiences. I loved the feeling that my characters were constantly evolving and made me take an interest in the RPG itself. And the games that weren't RPGs themselves, they made me realize at an early age what I liked in life. And set the stage for me becoming an anime fan later in life with their anime aesthetic and often a cute, euphoric dreamlike atmosphere. I think a lot of us were anime fans before Toonami, but it was Toonami that made us realize it, because we were older, and the frequency of which Toonami did this. Thus making me bathe in the SNES soup once again with the Super Famicom library. And again, setting my interests in life, set in stone for years to come. Or at the very least in pop culture. It also didn't hurt that I grew up on My Neighbor Totoro, Carebears, My Little Pony, and Samurai Pizza Cats. I basically grew up on the "moe craze" before it even had a name.

Even with the NES, before the SNES made it even more euphoric, cute and awesome, I like titles like Adventures of Lolo, Kirby, and so forth. It's not so much nostalgia, it's just what I learned I liked at a young age, and my tastes haven't changed. Euphorically cute is not childish, by the way, and at least not immature. And America really needs to learn this like Japan, and really, all of Asia has. Heck, this is probably one of those East/West cultural differences in general. But for me, I like cute or moe or kawaii or whatever.

So in terms of jRPGs and what I like, this may be a little bit superficial, but I like the aesthetic difference you tend to see in Eastern versus Western games, and especially maybe jRPGs. And that is cute, euphoric, colorful, and generally anime designed. Or manga designed, or whatever terrible term we've come up with for the non-realism design common to Japan. I think it's kind of bad that we use a term like "anime" to describe one of the most common and beloved aesthetics in the world, as if to make it seem like this niche thing(that, I dunno, dominates a lot of marketing designs in Asia, and is arguably the dominant style of Deviantart).

Then, for more lovely shallow things, there's androgyny. Maybe I'm this super shallow shallow-pants. But I love androgyny so much, it's not just like, a lot of my sexuality, but like this big perverted hobby of mine. I don't get it either, there's all sorts of terms and communities based around other fetishes. From foot fetishes to everything, and bisexual communities, gay furry communities, bdsm bisexual communities. No androgyny communities, no glorious army of like-minded perverts.

Nope, but we have jRPGs. As everyone talking about the subject can attest to. As in every single subject about them, androgyny is brought up. Yes, yes they do, thank you jRPGs for giving us the glorious ambiguity.

All right, now that I've already written an essay-worth of text on shallow stuff I like and my life story, maybe I can finally write something of substance.

To be honest, I do agree that jRPGs have gone a bit downhill and aren't innovating as much as they once were. For shallow stuff again, I guess I miss the Sword and Sorcery stuff, too. There's a reason Final Fantasy IV is my favourite. I think it was better when they had more Dungeons and Dragon inspired settings, and less "hip" and modern seeming settings.

Oh, wait, I was going to stop talking about shallow stuff. Perhaps the most innovative jRPG of all time was Chrono Trigger. And that was a long time ago. And many of the lessons the game taught, haven't been learned. The innovation of having no random battles, no (battle) screen switches(Chrono Trigger had none, while Chrono Cross carried on the "tradition"), interesting backstory for all characters, complementary combat techniques, and a plethora of other things.

I still think the genre has a lot going for it, and a heck of of a lot of potential, though.

Onto that sort of substance. One of the things I like about the jRPG as opposed to the wRPG, is how lonely they make me feel. One of the things that defines the RPG, whether it be a tabletop or video game, is the presence of a party. Think about one of the things central to dungeons and dragons, it's getting your friends out on the table and eventually making a party. You know, there's lots of discussions about what jRPGs are lacking. And I agree with some of the points. But I have just as many qualms with wRPGs and things I think should be fixed about them. If jRPGs should be more like wRPGs, wRPGs should DEFINITELY become more like jRPGs in many respects.

Like, again, the party. I'm sorry, but something like the Elder Scrolls is one of the loneliest experiences ever. Because, the wRPG lacks the party dynamics of the jRPG. The jRPG does a GREAT job of pulling out the party dynamics out of the tapletop RPG into video games. With many jRPGs, enjoying how the party interacts with each other one of the best parts of the game. Making you hardly feel lonely, and often, allowing you a group of fictional characters you'll remember forever.

As a fan of fictional characters and such, this is a big selling point of the jRPG to me. I like fictional characters. They're just fun. And jRPGs have a lot of character interaction and characterization. wRPGs, don't. wRPGs make me feel lonely. One of the highlights of me playing Oblivion was talking to Sheogorath. Why? Because he's a warm and vibrant personality that they managed to not completely mess up designing the face on. Because he's actually fun to be around in all his nuttiness as opposed to most of the game which has you going "wow, this is a really lonely game".

There's a lot of areas I think that the wRPG suffers in. But I think this is one of the key ones. wRPGs are very heavily inspired by Lord of the Rings, Dungeons and Dragons, and other notable Sword and Sorcery settings. But they really tend to drop the ball here. In Lord of the Rings, you really get a party dynamic much like in Dungeons and Dragons and jRPGs. But wRPGs don't nearly give you as much of that. wRPGs need more of a focus on friendship bonds and things like that. If Lord of the Rings and things like that are so important to the Westerners in the RPG genre, why do jRPGs resemble Wizardry and other early wRPGs, and have a strong sense of "Fellowship of the Ring" style fellowship? While wRPGs in their "innovation" seem to continually growing farther and farther removed.

Another thing I would like to add about people who harp on how the 'jrpg is dying' or "dead", I think that such communities focus far too much on the PC which doesn't get many, or certainly not the best jRPGs when it does get them. Or TV home console gaming, instead of handheld console gaming. This generation of consoles hasn't gotten too many noteworthy jRPGs. But the handheld systems have. In fact jRPGs are still a dominant genre in the handheld gaming world. And are also likely on their way to taking over the cell phone gaming world. After all, cell phone gaming is as popular in Japan as the West, as cell phones are arguably more popular in Japan than in the West, and many argue, they're the first nation to truly go cell phone crazy. Japanese RPG developers have been interested in breaking this market since the beginning.

I've reason to believe, crazy as it may seem, that jRPGs are going to eventually become a staple of cell phone gaming. Despite the fact that cell phone gaming seems to be on the opposite end of the spectrum, with a culture currently mostly in line with arcade style games rather than time investment games.
 

Suicidejim

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Lunar Templar said:
i like OLDER JRPGs.(SNES,PS1 and some PS2) mostly because they weren't totally bankrupt in terms of creativity then.

now? unless it made by Altus or is Demon's/Dark Souls, it gets ignored
Read first sentence. Prepared to argue. Saw Atlus mentioned in second sentence. Was forced to concede point. I haven't played a good JRPG that wasn't by Atlus for quite a while.
 

Rol3x

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RaikuFA said:
Rol3x said:
I dont like JRPGs at all, these are generalised reasons but apply fairly reliably to the genre as a whole.
I have trouble engaging with alot of the odd stories and wacky characters, some of this is to do with how silly they look, I cant take them seriously with those absurd hair styles and clothes/armour.
When a supposedly normal human leaps 30 feet into the air without any aid, floats then somehow flys at the enemies It makes me think "well, I have no freakin clue how the conventions of this world work" My expectations of the workings of the world don't have to be mundane but if things like that are happening id at least like to know how or why its possible, its immersion shattering flashiness for no reason that I can gather.

Do Japanese people or at least avid JRPG fans find Western rpgs this alien and inexplicable? I often like to explore the other side of this sort of thing and am quite curious.
Actually, Japan loves WRPGs. Skyrim got a 40/40 in Famitsu and a Abridged manga [http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2012/02/27/teach-me-professor-mordin-introduces-mass-effect-in-manga-form] explaining the events in ME1 and 2 was made for Japans release for ME3.

Wanna know how the West responded to those news?

"NOOOOOO, DON'T LET THEM PLAY IT!!! THEY'RE GONNA MAKE PEDO MODS!!!"

I don't mind if you can't get into JRPGs, but spouting crap like the above is just depressing...

Can you reccomend any JRPGs that are not like that? i'd like to give the genre a try and stick with it, there are so few good RPGs sticking to just Western ones seems a shame.
 

SajuukKhar

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s69-5 said:
Unlike say - fighting games, FPS games, hack 'n slash games or pretty much any other game ever made...
I don like fighting games that much either, though FPS has changed more then JRPGs in the last 15 years.

They went from non-linear, health pack, 10 weapon games to linear regen health and 2 wepon games.

The change want for the better but it was more change then JRPGs have had.
 

RaikuFA

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Rol3x said:
RaikuFA said:
Rol3x said:
I dont like JRPGs at all, these are generalised reasons but apply fairly reliably to the genre as a whole.
I have trouble engaging with alot of the odd stories and wacky characters, some of this is to do with how silly they look, I cant take them seriously with those absurd hair styles and clothes/armour.
When a supposedly normal human leaps 30 feet into the air without any aid, floats then somehow flys at the enemies It makes me think "well, I have no freakin clue how the conventions of this world work" My expectations of the workings of the world don't have to be mundane but if things like that are happening id at least like to know how or why its possible, its immersion shattering flashiness for no reason that I can gather.

Do Japanese people or at least avid JRPG fans find Western rpgs this alien and inexplicable? I often like to explore the other side of this sort of thing and am quite curious.
Actually, Japan loves WRPGs. Skyrim got a 40/40 in Famitsu and a Abridged manga [http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2012/02/27/teach-me-professor-mordin-introduces-mass-effect-in-manga-form] explaining the events in ME1 and 2 was made for Japans release for ME3.

Wanna know how the West responded to those news?

"NOOOOOO, DON'T LET THEM PLAY IT!!! THEY'RE GONNA MAKE PEDO MODS!!!"

I don't mind if you can't get into JRPGs, but spouting crap like the above is just depressing...

Can you reccomend any JRPGs that are not like that? i'd like to give the genre a try and stick with it, there are so few good RPGs sticking to just Western ones seems a shame.
There's the Shin Megami Tensei series which is basically Pokemon with Biblical figures, folklore and Gods from old mythologies(like Norse, Lovecraftian and Greek figures) and a moral choice system thats sort of like Mass Effect.

This website did a great job explaining the series here [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_279/8294-What-a-Long-Strange-Journey-Its-Been] when the 4th game for the DS came out.

Plus Atlus(the company who makes the games) is a company that believes that bridging the gap between US and JP gamers is the future.

If you're patient, Digital Devil Saga is hitting the PSN soon under PS2 classics.

Theres also The World Ends With You, which Yahtzee himself loved.
 

dessertmonkeyjk

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I would personally say it's the turn-based combat that puts me off. You'll spend more time thinking outside of the moment rather then in it similar to actual combat and such. If that changes to something more tolerable then crunching numbers while on a timer then I'll take a look.

Now, I'm not asking for full on Mass Effect style but it's a good canidate on what I'm looking for. You know, beat'em ups, shoot'em ups, tactical action games, etc that rely on ability stats and skill on how the player utilizes them.