Do you feel sorry for non gamers?

[Kahunaburger]

No, what i am saying is that people regardless of what era they belong are still the same back then as they are now: lazy and too bloody ignorant to give a fuck about the world at large and their neighbor.
With that in mind its easy (for me) to assume that most epics that lasted for centuries are more easy to just rewrite them over and over, word for word without thinking because "Hey this thing is pretty cool to read. I could write something like it but i am too lazy to do it and there is always some idiot that doesnt want to help on the farming and wants to write this kind of thing. Good for me either way"

Never said that books of poems never existed before the XX century, i just said that if there is already a "good" book out there, then logically the people doesnt need to make another. Its too much work after all and those Babilonian walls arent going to repair themselves, you know?

Dude, the reason why epic poems are poems in the first place is because the poetry structure makes them easier to remember and/or improvise (historians differ on the latter). Why are they designed this way? Because the vast majority of people appreciating them and delivering them were illiterate. For most of human history, most storytelling has not been recorded. This means that it was in a continual state of refinement - a particular story could be told any number of ways, depending on who told it and what their cultural values were. You also had people coming up with new stories for the same reason they do that now - sometimes people want to hear something they haven't heard before.

So when we read "epic poems," "myths," and "oral history" we are are in fact reading snapshots of a continually evolving tradition that includes both the original storytelling and the modern interpretation and translation of the work.

So the gaming equivalent of the Iliad would be something like this: hundreds of people work for centuries on refining, say, Dwarf Fortress into the ultimate gameplay experience. The builds people like the most become the standard for the new builds. Spin-offs and expansion packs are created. Thousands of games like this are stored for posterity, and change hands as civilizations rise and fall. If you look at the handful of games from this tradition that are played and studied in 4,500 AD, then you might be able to identify a gaming Iliad.

The oral storytelling equivalent of where gaming is now as a medium would be people sitting around a campfire talking about a really big animal their tribal hero killed. There's nothing wrong with this, but it's important to accept that there might be a difference in depth between traditions that existed for all of human history and traditions that are about 50 years old.

 

[Black Arrow Officer]

My school is a dead zone when it comes to gaming. I only know 5 people who have played Skyrim, and I know a lot of people. Most kids spend their weekends smoking pot and throwing parties where the cops have to interfere, which I honestly want no part of. It's not like I look down on them, it's just a pain when one of my main interests is shared by almost nobody. Thankfully, I found out one of the kids in my auto shop class plays Mass Effect, although he plays on a different platform.

 

[DioWallachia]

I am back. Gonna need a bit of music to endure this and since i know that the other guy is going to read this may as well put some music for all 3:

Cthulhu Saves The World OST - Conflict (Battle Theme)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG0rgvpYUtc

Rise of the Triad (ROTT) - Goin' down the Fast way
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX_Kb0cDN98

Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver = Ozar Midrashim by Information Society
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2RMWWBXYbs

Iji - Tor - (Tors theme)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86IxmklUgEM

Battle Moon Wars BGM - Unlimited Blade Works
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d66KCh1S5L8

Cave Story OST ~Moonsong~ Extended Version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVzC6WZImGY

Irisu Syndrome - Unknown
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjmgxvVQlJQ

Eversion - You Can't Escape (World -8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O35Pt8hUpOU

Tyrian - Tyrian the song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVZ47z4F0G8

Thunder Force IV - Evil Destroyer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7qjICTsKho

Vinyl Goddess from Mars - Main Theme
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qfj4hLYLVBM

Chakan : The Forever Man Soundtrack 01 Main Theme
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_T-s4h3LhU

Hexen II - Blackmarsh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ESLhpWem0g

Mega Turrican - Stage 1-1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdY4EKAcW4Q

Arcus Odyssey - Act 6-3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB_yLnRA98U

Michael Jackson's Moonwalker - Smooth Criminal [Genesis] Music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXw_txpn_aM

The Binding Of Isaac OST - Apostate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM4hSCbqjF8&feature=related

Twin Peaks Intro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oDuGN6K3VQ

Evil Genius - pause music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4Ln3SSxWYA

Dude, the reason why epic poems are poems in the first place is because the poetry structure makes them easier to remember and/or improvise (historians differ on the latter). Why are they designed this way? Because the vast majority of people appreciating them and delivering them were illiterate. For most of human history, most storytelling has not been recorded. This means that it was in a continual state of refinement - a particular story could be told any number of ways, depending on who told it and what their cultural values were. You also had people coming up with new stories for the same reason they do that now - sometimes people want to hear something they haven't heard before.

So when we read "epic poems," "myths," and "oral history" we are are in fact reading snapshots of a continually evolving tradition that includes both the original storytelling and the modern interpretation and translation of the work.

So the gaming equivalent of the Iliad would be something like this: hundreds of people work for centuries on refining, say, Dwarf Fortress into the ultimate gameplay experience. The builds people like the most become the standard for the new builds. Spin-offs and expansion packs are created. Thousands of games like this are stored for posterity, and change hands as civilizations rise and fall. If you look at the handful of games from this tradition that are played and studied in 4,500 AD, then you might be able to identify a gaming Iliad.

The oral storytelling equivalent of where gaming is now as a medium would be people sitting around a campfire talking about a really big animal their tribal hero killed. There's nothing wrong with this, but it's important to accept that there might be a difference in depth between traditions that existed for all of human history and traditions that are about 50 years old.

So basicaly all stories or epic poems were shitty at first and people just started to refine it during the ages..........so how is that any different from any story from any medium up until now (including games)? if all it takes is for people to take their time to make it better then games like Minecraft would be the equivalent of a epic poem....except that Minecraft as it is its just falls appart in everyway possible and its only thanks to the fans and the mods that keep it alive but by the time

And you cant tell me that "sometimes people want to hear something they haven't heard before" because people ALWAYS go the same structure on a story. See, there is this guy Joseph Campbell who made the book "The Hero With A Thousand Faces" that i will now make a bastadization of what he said there.
He explains that human beings havent change much on the biological level sinse ancient times and now, and for that all the religions, legends, and myths through history are the same story being told diferently over and over because on some deep subcounsious level they NEED these particular stories to inspire them. If you breakdown all the heroic legends you will find that they are all the same, Jesus, Gilgamesh, Aslan, Superman, Harry Potter, Hercules, King Arthur, Luke Skywalker, are all the same guy.

And here comes the part that videogames get fucked over, here is my hypothesis. Thanks to the Internet, alot of artist and game developers (at least the ones that are still trying to make something original) know about this phenomena and try their darnest to give it the finger by making something they believe would make a good story without using the same archetypes. After all, why not?? (they would think) this is a new era so may as well let the people know that you dont need those tropes to be played to actually make a mark for the future, right??................right? WROOOOOOOOOOOOOONG

So not only there is more of the bussiness side of gaming taking over but the people are too dumb to apreciate anything else that its not a surprice that games have to be always the same to succed. Just ask Amy Hennings, she made the ambitious Legacy of Kain series to the walking chiche that its the Uncharted series, who you cant really call a series because every game its just exactly the same but that its what people like and where the money flows. In fact, that a drink from a beer or something for every game that happens to be the best ever just because the protagonist is silent and therefore a blank slate that the players can make their own epic by protecting themselves. Gordon Freeman, the guy from Skyrim, Indiana Jones, Bella Swaan....oh wait, those 2 arent from games but take a guess how successfull they are for being blank slate (they do have more lines than the 2 gaming examples but their function on the movies is absolutely clear in the end that it doesnt matter)

We cant argue anymore (well at least not you but i mean the other guy that is so obviously reading this now) that movies are better than games because movies had a 100+ years start and plus more people decided to give a try to something new and films already surpassed the era where the people only expected silent comedies in the same way that people expected games to be violent simulators and have shitty writing. Instead we should argue of making people realize the potencial of video games and hope they decide to use the best talents available to make the best epic poem in video game form.

 

[Kahunaburger]

So basicaly all stories or epic poems were shitty at first and people just started to refine it during the ages..........so how is that any different from any story from any medium up until now (including games)? if all it takes is for people to take their time to make it better then games like Minecraft would be the equivalent of a epic poem....except that Minecraft as it is its just falls appart in everyway possible and its only thanks to the fans and the mods that keep it alive but by the time

The point is that you don't have centuries of refinement in games. You have, at most, 10-20 years of refinement. So we're not going to wind up with a gaming Iliad in our lifetime, if at all.

And you cant tell me that "sometimes people want to hear something they haven't heard before" because people ALWAYS go the same structure on a story. See, there is this guy Joseph Campbell who made the book "The Hero With A Thousand Faces" that i will now make a bastadization of what he said there.
He explains that human beings havent change much on the biological level sinse ancient times and now, and for that all the religions, legends, and myths through history are the same story being told diferently over and over because on some deep subcounsious level they NEED these particular stories to inspire them. If you breakdown all the heroic legends you will find that they are all the same, Jesus, Gilgamesh, Aslan, Superman, Harry Potter, Hercules, King Arthur, Luke Skywalker, are all the same guy.

I can see you have never read the Epic of Gilgamesh. I'm also unclear how you think this fits into your larger argument.

And here comes the part that videogames get fucked over, here is my hypothesis. Thanks to the Internet, alot of artist and game developers (at least the ones that are still trying to make something original) know about this phenomena and try their darnest to give it the finger by making something they believe would make a good story without using the same archetypes. After all, why not?? (they would think) this is a new era so may as well let the people know that you dont need those tropes to be played to actually make a mark for the future, right??................right? WROOOOOOOOOOOOOONG

I don't think that gaming's problem is that it isn't formulaic enough.

So not only there is more of the bussiness side of gaming taking over but the people are too dumb to apreciate anything else that its not a surprice that games have to be always the same to succed. Just ask Amy Hennings, she made the ambitious Legacy of Kain series to the walking chiche that its the Uncharted series, who you cant really call a series because every game its just exactly the same but that its what people like and where the money flows. In fact, that a drink from a beer or something for every game that happens to be the best ever just because the protagonist is silent and therefore a blank slate that the players can make their own epic by protecting themselves (Gordon Freeman, the guy from Skyrim, Indiana Jones, Bella Swaan....oh wait, those 2 arent from games but take a guess how successfull they are for being blank slate)

Have you seen the Indiana Jones movies?

We cant argue anymore (well at least not you but i mean the other guy that is so obviously reading this now) that movies are better than games because movies had a 100+ years start and plus more people decided to give a try to something new and films already surpassed the era where the people only expected silent comedies in the same way that people expected games to be violent simulators and have shitty writing. Instead we should argue of making people realize the potencial of video games and hope they decide to use the best talents available to make the best epic poem in video game form.

This I actually agree with you on. Just don't hold your breath.

 

[DioWallachia]

The point is that you don't have centuries of refinement in games. You have, at most, 10-20 years of refinement. So we're not going to wind up with a gaming Iliad in our lifetime, if at all.

Here is why i dissagre on the "there is no refinement on games":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6vhiPzOhG4

Have you seen the Indiana Jones movies?

Just ask Mr. Plinket in his Indiana Jones review. Indy its just a hat, not a actual character. He is there for the men in the audience to be proyected into because he is not realistic.

 

[Kahunaburger]

The point is that you don't have centuries of refinement in games. You have, at most, 10-20 years of refinement. So we're not going to wind up with a gaming Iliad in our lifetime, if at all.

Here is why i dissagre on the "there is no refinement on games":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6vhiPzOhG4

There is refinement in games, absolutely. Case in point, the roguelike genre. I'm seriously enjoying what is basically a Rogue variant. There just hasn't been centuries of refinement in games, yet.

There's also the issue that unlike oral tradition, film, and literature, we haven't quite worked out how to tell compelling stories in games (once again, yet.)