Do you know ANYONE who has actually gone from gay to straight post-puberty?

[ReservoirAngel]

Sexual orientation IS a choice. Homosexuality IS a choice. I have never seen any evidence to the contrary but I've seen tons of evidence that supports "choice".

Evidence for choice? Ooh boy, sorry to break this to you but those people claiming it's a choice? Yeah, more often than not they are fucking crazy, just anti-gay, devoutly Christian trying desperately to justify how God could make gay people by denying he does, or just in massive amounts of denial.

I want you to try something: ask an actual, real life gay person. You'd be amazed the insight you get. Turns out gay people know more about their own sexuality than random straight people do. Who'd have thought?

I say it's completely psychological. Growing up in a homosexual family with homosexual friends you would probably be homosexual yourself I believe. Same goes for straight but with more emphasis considering straight seems to be more accepted in our current society.

So that explains how I ended up gay as a rainbow without meeting another gay person or even really knowing about homosexuality until after I had already figured I really liked dick! Of course, it makes perfect sense!

Wait, what?

 

[ShindoL Shill]

well i realised i was bi during puberty...
and maybe a bisexual might just stop dating homosexually forever.

 

[Hoplon]

I don't believe sexuality is a choice, but nor do I believe that it can never ever be changed. Sexuality is a fluid thing (pun not intended) and can change based on certain experiences or realizations within the self. People who say that sexuality can never ever be changed are as closed-minded as the people who say that sexuality is always a choice. Usually, it seems as if it is not a choice but sexuality can change.

OT: I've never known anyone to go from gay to straight (or vice versa) after puberty. I myself knew my sexual preference since I was very young.

The problem with that point of view is that it doesn't account for the fact that brain structure is not exactly the same for any two people, so thinking that means it's fluid is not really paying attention to the fact it could just be that this analogue construction isn't quite where anyone else happens to be.

It's not that it can't change, but that change on that scale is not something that is gentle or "just happened"

 

[AndyFromMonday]

Question. Are you gay?
Not to be hatefull or anything, but are you speaking from experience or are you just putting forward your opinion?

I'm bisexual actually.

snip

Are major disorders like schizophrenia treated by psychologists or psychiatrists?

 

[whycantibelinus]

I know 3 people who went from gay to straight. My step sister was a lesbian from the time she was 14 until the day she turned 22. My best friend in high school his sister was a lesbian from when she was 16 until she was 28, turned straight met a guy, got married, had a daughter, got divorced, still straight after that. My former employers daughter, she was a lesbian from when she was 13 until she was 35, then for no real reason just stopped hooking up with females and started hooking up with guys.

None of them are religious, in fact they are the absolute opposite of religious it was just what they decided to do. Interestingly enough my step sister when she was gay was an absolute proponent of the argument "you are born gay, it's not a choice" but then she decided arbitrarily to start being with guys, fun stuff.

 

[Azuaron]

Are major disorders like schizophrenia treated by psychologists or psychiatrists?

Yes.

Some states (in the US) prohibit people without an M.D. from distributing drugs, so a psychologist may "contract out" certain treatments to psychiatrists to get patients drugs. But both professions as a whole treat all psychopathologies. However, abnormal psychology is, primarily, the study of disorders, while psychiatry is, primarily, the treatment of disorders.

But that's actually irrelevant. Whether a profession "studies" or "treats" a disorder doesn't mean a disorder isn't a disorder of that profession.

For instance, even if schizophrenia was never treated by psychologists, it's heavily studied by psychologists, thus making it a "psychological disorder" (or, pulling the roots apart, "of or pertaining to the study of a disorder of the mind"). This doesn't make it not a psychiatric disorder, but it's still a psychological disorder. This is why I said it was more precisely labeled a "psychopathology," but if I just say "psychopathology" in casual conversation people give me strange looks, so I tend to say "psychological disorder" instead. Psychiatrists probably say "psychiatric disorder" instead.

One profession does not monopolize a particular disorder.

 

[whycantibelinus]

I want you to try something: ask an actual, real life gay person. You'd be amazed the insight you get. Turns out gay people know more about their own sexuality than random straight people do. Who'd have thought?

I'm not trying to fight you or fuck up your argument or anything, just going to point something out in my experience.

I used to have a lot of gay friends and we on many occasions had good conversations on this subject and in this circle of friends it was about half and half, opinions of the homosexuals not mine, that some knew they'd always been gay and others made a conscious decision based on their own willy nilly preferences to be exclusively homosexual.

While it may be true that many homosexuals are born being attracted to their own sex you can't discredit the power of free will within a human being that affords them the choice to decide which sex they prefer having intimacy with. That's all I wanted to say.

 

[Jovlo]

Your sexuality cannot be changed.

Okay... way too much misunderstanding about genetics' relationship to brain processes... As a psychologist, I will try to explain.

First, if homosexuality was purely genetic, gay people would need a "gay gene" somewhere up their family tree (or an unlikely random mutation), and, as far as anyone can tell, straight people are the ones who keep having children who turn out to be gay.

Thirdly, babies are never homosexual. Nor are they heterosexual. They are asexual. Children "discover" their sexuality during puberty. Anyone who claims sexual memories before puberty is reinterpreting nonsexual memories to have a sexual meaning later, lying, or was horribly abused as a child.

OK, just coming back on that first point...

If there is indeed a 'gay gene', that doesn't mean only gay parents can have gay children.
The gene can be passed on through the gay persons straight siblings. Let me explain some basic genetics:

Everyone has two versions of each gene. One you get from your mother, the other comes from your father.
For example, there are several versions of the gene for eye colour, like a version that gives you blue eyes, and a one that gives you brown eyes.
Of the two versions of a gene you have, one will be dominant and be expressed. The brown eye version of the eye colour gene is the dominant one, so a person who has both the genetic material for blue and brown eyes will still have brown eyes.
When this person passes on his/her genes, the egg/sperm will have either a blue or a brown version to pass on.
This also explains why blue eyes are rarer than brown eyes, and why parents who both have brown eyes can have a blue eyed child.

Now, say that homosexuality works the same way (I'm not saying that it does, I just think it's very likely), the straight version of the 'sexual orientation gene' would be the dominant one, also explaining why homosexuality is much rarer than heterosexuality.
If both parents have a gay and a straight version of the gene, they can both be straight and have a 25% chance to have a gay child.

Now this was a simple example. Lots of traits are defined by more than one gene (for instance how tall you are). It is possible that you need 2 or more rare versions of genes that define your orientation, making homosexuality even rarer, or explaining bisexuality.

And yes, it runs in families.
I know a lot of gay people who's siblings are gay as well.
I myself am proudly bisexual, and my family is filled with priests, several obviously gay but to afraid to come out.

I think it's only a matter of time before a gene will be found.


And on that third point:
Things like chest hair are geneticaly determined.
Yet have you ever seen a baby with chest hair?
Some genes are only expressed at a certain time.

 

[Ruwrak]

Question. Are you gay?
Not to be hatefull or anything, but are you speaking from experience or are you just putting forward your opinion?

I'm bisexual actually.

Ah right, welcome to the club then. Then I am suprised you're so feverishly convinced that it's genetically dictated.

I made the choice to accept that I like both sides of our species. But I -know- it's not genetically linked to me. Why you ask? Because I experience it like that. Maybe for you it's all in your genes (meaning it would have been passed on generation to generation), but for the rest of the people it might be different.

Let's just accept there are things noone can be sure about, and only able to identify it with how he or she experiences it. That way everyone is happy.

Unless you really want to force people to believe you just because you yell the loudest? (just like anyone else that is screaming something about some topic, not specifically aimed at you per sé)

 

[Azuaron]

snip

I really don't know what you're arguing about.

Your sexuality cannot be changed.

Okay... way too much misunderstanding about genetics' relationship to brain processes... As a psychologist, I will try to explain.

First, if homosexuality was purely genetic, gay people would need a "gay gene" somewhere up their family tree (or an unlikely random mutation), and, as far as anyone can tell, straight people are the ones who keep having children who turn out to be gay.

Thirdly, babies are never homosexual. Nor are they heterosexual. They are asexual. Children "discover" their sexuality during puberty. Anyone who claims sexual memories before puberty is reinterpreting nonsexual memories to have a sexual meaning later, lying, or was horribly abused as a child.

OK, just coming back on that first point...

If there is indeed a 'gay gene', that doesn't mean only gay parents can have gay children.

You'll notice I said: "First, if homosexuality was purely genetic, gay people would need a "gay gene" somewhere up their family tree (or an unlikely random mutation)." I did not say "gay people need gay parents." Pay attention.

The gene can be passed on through the gay persons straight siblings. Let me explain some basic genetics:

Everyone has two versions of each gene. One you get from your mother, the other comes from your father.
For example, there are several versions of the gene for eye colour, like a version that gives you blue eyes, and a one that gives you brown eyes.
Of the two versions of a gene you have, one will be dominant and be expressed. The brown eye version of the eye colour gene is the dominant one, so a person who has both the genetic material for blue and brown eyes will still have brown eyes.
When this person passes on his/her genes, the egg/sperm will have either a blue or a brown version to pass on.
This also explains why blue eyes are rarer than brown eyes, and why parents who both have brown eyes can have a blue eyed child.

Now, say that homosexuality works the same way (I'm not saying that it does, I just think it's very likely), the straight version of the 'sexual orientation gene' would be the dominant one, also explaining why homosexuality is much rarer than heterosexuality.
If both parents have a gay and a straight version of the gene, they can both be straight and have a 25% chance to have a gay child.

Now this was a simple example. Lots of traits are defined by more than one gene (for instance how tall you are). It is possible that you need 2 or more rare versions of genes that define your orientation, making homosexuality even rarer, or explaining bisexuality.

That's called simplified Mendelian genetics. It's actually much more complicated, especially when you get to how certain genes are expressed (or not expressed).

For example, sex is hard-coded, right? Very simple, no way around. XX, you're a girl. XY, you're a guy. Like, there's no way to be female without two X chromosomes, right?

Wrong. They're called XY females (or, technically, they have XY gonadal dysgenesis).

(I really couldn't tell you how it works [too complicated--which is my point], but I know it exists, and I know it's one of many examples that show why any argument of complex, behavioral Mendelian genetics falls flat on its face.)

And yes, it runs in families.
I know a lot of gay people who's siblings are gay as well.
I myself am proudly bisexual, and my family is filled with priests, several obviously gay but to afraid to come out.

Woah, pulling out that personal stories instead of hard data. Definitely the way to go.

The problem with siblings is that they grew up in a similar environment, so it's hard to pull apart what's genetic and what's environmental. You'll notice I talked about twin studies. In a twin study, they'll typically try to find members of several specific groups: identical twins that were separated at birth, identical twins that grew up in the same home, fraternal twins that were separated at birth, and fraternal twins that grew up in the same home. In this way, they can determine how much of a certain thing (e.g., homosexuality) is determined by: genetics, environment in utero, and environment/upbringing after birth.

The benefit of these studies is you can determine approximately how much a given factor will influence a certain thing (e.g., development of homosexuality). For instance, you mentioned height. Height is not strictly genetic; nutrition strongly influences how tall someone will become. Using twin studies, it's possible to determine how much genetics influences height.

So... like I said in my previous post, twin studies have shown that homosexuality has a genetic component, but genetics is not the only component. (Seriously, for most of your points, I can just refer you to my previous post. I don't know what you think you're refuting/adding.)

I think it's only a matter of time before a gene will be found.

I don't think it is. It's probably only a matter of time until a bunch of genes are found, along with a number of environmental and social influences, but that's not, "Ma'am, we've sequenced your baby's DNA, and he will be homosexual." (Interesting side-topic: if this were possible and you approached an anti-gay, pro-lifer with this information, would they be in favor of aborting the future-gay fetus?)

And on that third point:
Things like chest hair are geneticaly determined.
Yet have you ever seen a baby with chest hair?
Some genes are only expressed at a certain time.

First, yes, it's called congenital hypertrichosis (or "werewolf syndrome").

More seriously, the "chest hair" gene is a lot simpler than "gene to determine brain structure that must survive the complete rewiring of the brain--twice!--by the environment before it can be expressed."

But, like I said, homosexuality has been determined to be partially genetic, there's just a lot of environmental influence upon it. Again, I don't know what you think you're refuting/adding to what I said. It's like you've looked at those three points you quoted and completely ignored everything else I said in that post.

 

[ReservoirAngel]

I want you to try something: ask an actual, real life gay person. You'd be amazed the insight you get. Turns out gay people know more about their own sexuality than random straight people do. Who'd have thought?

I'm not trying to fight you or fuck up your argument or anything, just going to point something out in my experience.

I used to have a lot of gay friends and we on many occasions had good conversations on this subject and in this circle of friends it was about half and half, opinions of the homosexuals not mine, that some knew they'd always been gay and others made a conscious decision based on their own willy nilly preferences to be exclusively homosexual.

While it may be true that many homosexuals are born being attracted to their own sex you can't discredit the power of free will within a human being that affords them the choice to decide which sex they prefer having intimacy with. That's all I wanted to say.

I would offer the counter-argument that if one is in a position where they are able to "choose" in some way then they are not gay or straight, but rather they are bisexual and merely decided to only pursue the gender they preferred over the other.

But this is one of those issues where there are many ways of looking at it. Like, what I just said is my personal belief when it comes to sexuality.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

Yes.

Some states (in the US) prohibit people without an M.D. from distributing drugs, so a psychologist may "contract out" certain treatments to psychiatrists to get patients drugs. But both professions as a whole treat all psychopathologies. However, abnormal psychology is, primarily, the study of disorders, while psychiatry is, primarily, the treatment of disorders.

But that's actually irrelevant. Whether a profession "studies" or "treats" a disorder doesn't mean a disorder isn't a disorder of that profession.

For instance, even if schizophrenia was never treated by psychologists, it's heavily studied by psychologists, thus making it a "psychological disorder" (or, pulling the roots apart, "of or pertaining to the study of a disorder of the mind"). This doesn't make it not a psychiatric disorder, but it's still a psychological disorder. This is why I said it was more precisely labeled a "psychopathology," but if I just say "psychopathology" in casual conversation people give me strange looks, so I tend to say "psychological disorder" instead. Psychiatrists probably say "psychiatric disorder" instead.

One profession does not monopolize a particular disorder.

I understand. I always thought psychology and psychiatry were two distinct entities rarely interacting with each other. I guess I'm wrong.

Ah right, welcome to the club then. Then I am suprised you're so feverishly convinced that it's genetically dictated.

I made the choice to accept that I like both sides of our species. But I -know- it's not genetically linked to me. Why you ask? Because I experience it like that. Maybe for you it's all in your genes (meaning it would have been passed on generation to generation), but for the rest of the people it might be different.

Whether it's genetic, hormonal or whatever everyone theorizes it to be at this point it doesn't matter. I can't claim I know all the facts surrounding homosexuality but I do know one thing. Every single psychological association in the world says your sexuality cannot be changed.

Let's just accept there are things noone can be sure about, and only able to identify it with how he or she experiences it.

EXACTLY! Because you're bisexual it just seems natural to like both men and women and since you can so freely "switch" between both sexes it just doesn't make sense to you that other people simply can't.

Unless you really want to force people to believe you just because you yell the loudest? (just like anyone else that is screaming something about some topic, not specifically aimed at you per sé)

I'm not forcing anyone to believe anything. I've only showed how a lot of psychological associations agree with me.

 

[Ruwrak]

Whether it's genetic, hormonal or whatever everyone theorizes it to be at this point it doesn't matter. I can't claim I know all the facts surrounding homosexuality but I do know one thing. Every single psychological association in the world says your sexuality cannot be changed.


EXACTLY! Because you're bisexual it just seems natural to like both men and women and since you can so freely "switch" between both sexes it just doesn't make sense to you that other people simply can't.

I'm not forcing anyone to believe anything. I've only showed how a lot of psychological associations agree with me.

quote sponsored by le snip(c) quote techniques.


Yes, and every church says their god excists, but I still experience it different. Just because group A says something and B,C and D back it up, does not mean it's correct 100% at all times.

I would like to know how you can read my mind. Oh.. you can't right? Then don't put words in my mouth. I cannot "switch" freely as you suggest, nor is it natural for me to like both genders. Just because I am bi, does not mean I did not choose for it and was 'born'that way. Since I sure as hell did not choose to embrace the thought of bisexuality somewhere 2 years ago. I did not got involved with other men before that age. Heck it even scared me to be near them. It went better when I chose to open my mind and see other possibilities. That right there? That's a choice to be something. On that note it makes a whopping lot of sense to me that some people cannot accept / want their situation. It's a scary world you know.

And like I said, just because you have studies backing you up does not mean you're right. If that was true then games would be bad for our health, particles could not move faster then the speed of light and the universe would be crowded by aliens by now.


So in short, you say studies agree with you, but you seem to lack personal experience to put up arguments up from

 

[AndyFromMonday]

Yes, and every church says their god excists, but I still experience it different. Just because group A says something and B,C and D back it up, does not mean it's correct 100% at all times.

That depends. Are groups B, C and D filled with psychologists?

I cannot "switch" freely as you suggest, nor is it natural for me to like both genders. Just because I am bi, does not mean I did not choose for it and was 'born'that way. Since I sure as hell did not choose to embrace the thought of bisexuality somewhere 2 years ago

You were probably fighting against it. It's quite common even for bisexual people. Hell, it was with me. Anyways this is a fruitless discussion. I cannot talk about you because I don't know but I can talk about me and I know what I went through.

I did not got involved with other men before that age. Heck it even scared me to be near them.

Look, I'm not a psychologist nor do I know you but from reading this it just seems as if you were fighting against your sexuality.

. It went better when I chose to open my mind and see other possibilities. That right there? That's a choice to be something. On that note it makes a whopping lot of sense to me that some people cannot accept / want their situation. It's a scary world you know.

Being open minded and bisexual are two different things. If you're just open minded then it's much more likely you're just that, open minded and if you're currently sexually attracted to men/women then it's much more likely you were always bisexual. In fact, in both cases it's much more likely you were bisexual.

And like I said, just because you have studies backing you up does not mean you're right.

Yes it does.

games would be bad for our health

They are bad for our health. Well not games themselves, it's all the sitting. I'm assuming you're referring to the "video games cause violence" thing but whilst there have been a lot of claims being made about this specific subject what the studies found were inconclusive results. The reason everyone claims the whole "video games cause violence" side of the issue is bullshit is because the studies done by that side were highly biased.

particles could not move faster then the speed of light

There have been no studies done that show neutrinos are capable of traveling faster than the speed of light. There has been one incidence where the reported speed was faster but that proves nothing.

the universe would be crowded by aliens by now.

What study claims that?

So in short, you say studies agree with you, but you seem to lack personal experience to put up arguments up from

Even if I did it doesn't matter. Experts agree with me and to be honest, I'm much more inclined to trust them.

 

[Ruwrak]

cut

once again sponsored by le snip(c).

You rather trust studies then personal feelings?
odd person =/

Edit:
I'm actually gonna edit this and wonder out loud if you only believe things studies tell you?
By the way, experts do not agree with you, you agree with experts.
World of difference there

 

[intheweeds]

The causes of homosexuality might be relatively unknown but what is known for sure, 100%, is that your sexual orientation is not a choice, it never has been a choice and trying to pass it off as a choice is just a way to further stigmatize the gay community. Your sexual orientation is NOT a choice, it's NOT a mental disorder and it can never, ever, EVER be changed.

I never said it was a choice. And if you think I'm treating homosexuality as some kind of disease, you are wrong. However, no matter how many bold words you use, we must accept that we don't know exactly what is the homosexual behavior, where does it stem from, and just how deeply the environment plays a role in it.

But I do believe that your sexual orientation can change, during the course of your life, environment and experiences. To and from homosexuality.

Don't be so defensive. No one is talking about social stigmas, here.

I may be late to the argument here, but I think the main issue people are having here is the gay/straight/bisexual dichotomy(?)(is it a dichotomy when there are three things?). Hardly anyone is pure gay straight or bisexual. There is a whole scale(the Kinsey Scale) and everyone fits in somewhere.

My feelings about your gay-turned-straight man is that he very likely does have an attraction to women in some way or he would feel just as unhappy and in the closet now. No, I don't think you can change your sexuality. I do believe it is set, but just not in the boxes people want to place each other in.

I for instance am a gay woman. I am very gay. I haven't slept with a man in well over a decade at this point and I really don't anticipate it in the future, but I know a hot guy when I see one. That doesn't make me any less gay. Rare are the few who are purely on one side or the other. Most fit somewhere in the middle closer to one side or the other.

"Males do not represent two discrete populations, heterosexual and homosexual. The world is not to be divided into sheep and goats. It is a fundamental of taxonomy that nature rarely deals with discrete categories... The living world is a continuum in each and every one of its aspects."

- Kinsey

 

[AndyFromMonday]

cut

once again sponsored by le snip(c).

You rather trust studies then personal feelings?
odd person =/

Edit:
I'm actually gonna edit this and wonder out loud if you only believe things studies tell you?
By the way, experts do not agree with you, you agree with experts.
World of difference there

Sorry, English is not my first language. Doesn't change the fact that studies provide more coherent, conclusive and evidence based results. Science isn't based on personal feelings.

 

[Ruwrak]

Sorry, English is not my first language. Doesn't change the fact that studies provide more coherent, conclusive and evidence based results. Science isn't based on personal feelings.

Nor is it mine Just a little nagging on my side, everyone seems to be doing it. If experts agree with you, means you wrote something that they agree with. Now, without intended offense, you don't seem like you written the book on born / choice issues.

If anything, science leaves out the personal interpretation & emotions as a whole. Which is a shame, as the emotional side of something is also a part of science. Not saying science is evil (even though glow in the dark cats are quite evil at night.) but it only lights on -one- aspect of the situation. The cold part of it. Basically only that what we see is considered true when dealing with science. But somewhere you have to agree that beeing gay is also choosing to be gay (as well for bisexuality and lesbianism).

If only a choice to accept that which you are. If it was as simple as beeing born gay by genetic transcession (however that would work within a gay marriage, as you label it a gene thingamajig is beyond me.)it would not be hard to accept it yourself. 'T quite takes a while to accept and also choose to accept the situation.

And I missed a sidenote of you a while ago, I was not fighting, merely not understanding. Can't fight that what you don't know about right?