Do you know ANYONE who has actually gone from gay to straight post-puberty?

[AndyFromMonday]

If anything, science leaves out the personal interpretation & emotions as a whole.

No it doesn't. It analyses them as well. Of course it leaves out personal interpretation though, that's just stupid. Science isn't about YOUR opinion or YOUR belief, that goes against everything science is about. It's a world where unless you can prove your claims you'll be out the door faster than you can say asshole. This isn't philosophy or art where almost everything is subjective. Science operates by strict objective values and what you're saying comes dangerously close to what creationists are saying when they try to make their belief sound scientific.

Which is a shame, as the emotional side of something is also a part of science. Not saying science is evil (even though glow in the dark cats are quite evil at night.) but it only lights on -one- aspect of the situation. The cold part of it. Basically only that what we see is considered true when dealing with science. But somewhere you have to agree that beeing gay is also choosing to be gay (as well for bisexuality and lesbianism).

Well psychologists proved you otherwise. You are entitled to your claim but it's bullshit. You can address the data those researches found but unless you have the proper training your chances of debunking it are slim at best.

And I missed a sidenote of you a while ago, I was not fighting, merely not understanding. Can't fight that what you don't know about right?

So let me get this straight. You were sexually attracted to the opposite gender but you didn't "understand" what that meant so you choose to ignore that side of you? At least to me, this looks like you knew quite well you were bisexual.

 

[Ruwrak]

No it doesn't. It analyses them as well. Of course it leaves out personal interpretation though, that's just stupid. Science isn't about YOUR opinion or YOUR belief, that goes against everything science is about. It's a world where unless you can prove your claims you'll be out the door faster than you can say asshole. This isn't philosophy or art where almost everything is subjective. Science operates by strict objective values and what you're saying comes dangerously close to what creationists are saying when they try to make their belief sound scientific.

-----

Well psychologists proved you otherwise. You are entitled to your claim but it's bullshit. You can address the data those researches found but unless you have the proper training your chances of debunking it are slim at best.

-----

So let me get this straight. You were sexually attracted to the opposite gender but you didn't "understand" what that meant so you choose to ignore that side of you? At least to me, this looks like you knew quite well you were bisexual.

Never said Science was not about MY opinion or MY believe. I try to show you a different side of the whole, but you fail to see where I am trying to take this to. You say everything is in cold hard facts presented by science, I say it's more then just that. Right now you're acting as if someone put a blindfold over your head and earplugs in your ears. Instead of actually sitting down calmly and read the things I try to show you, you seem to be immediatly going for the quickest conclusion there is.

Yes, I am entitled to my own believes and truths (yet you are very much agressive towards those and rather have me shut up about it so you can do your internet victory dance probably.) . Once again, who says I am trying to debunk anything? I refer to the paragraph above here, I am merely trying to show you that there might be more to what you constantly keep claiming. For every study that backs you up, there will probably be one that says otherwise. So unless you can show me 1 gene of sexuality, I'm still not buying the genetically transferred part.

Mind you, I'm 22 years now and lived quite the sexuality sheltered live where men liked women and men worked out in the gym barechested with other men. Without you knowing my circustances and situations you cannot say what I did know and did not know. Unless you're a mind reader, but I hardly doubt you are. Because if you were you probably would be more calm and subdued and actually trying to see my point.

Because I do see your points. Really I do and they sound all very acceptable, yet they do not stroke with my experiences on the subject. (then again, it's about people going from gay to straight post-puberty so this whole discussion is off-topic slightly as it is.) And that is what I'm trying to show you. Now, I don't expect to put any more words here so I'll just be the bigger man and throw my hands up in the air, as a sign of acknowledgement:

"Have it your way, you were right, the rest of the world is wrong, now go do your victory dance and feel good about yourself."

And that's without any stingy, agressive, sour or bitter intention.
Take it as you will or not.



Back to topic:
I actually know quite a few same sex people, I should ask if they know someone who went from gay to straight by sexual preference and not religious conviction. Because of -those- people I know a few yeah.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

Never said Science was not about MY opinion or MY believe. I try to show you a different side of the whole, but you fail to see where I am trying to take this to. You say everything is in cold hard facts presented by science, I say it's more then just that. Right now you're acting as if someone put a blindfold over your head and earplugs in your ears. Instead of actually sitting down calmly and read the things I try to show you, you seem to be immediatly going for the quickest conclusion there is.

You're trying to say personal interpretation should be a big part of "science". How will that fit in an objective based system of evaluation?

Also, you totally said it was about your opinion or rather other people's opinion. What you're claiming is that if someone had "hands on" experience with a certain subject it should be taken into account when deciding something ignoring the fact that personal experience is based on certain factors that vary from experience to experience which makes "personal experiences" a wholly unreliable way to reach a conclusion.

Yes, I am entitled to my own believes and truths (yet you are very much agressive towards those and rather have me shut up about it so you can do your internet victory dance probably.)

I fail to see how disproving your claims is the same as shutting you up.

. Once again, who says I am trying to debunk anything? I refer to the paragraph above here, I am merely trying to show you that there might be more to what you constantly keep claiming. For every study that backs you up, there will probably be one that says otherwise. So unless you can show me 1 gene of sexuality, I'm still not buying the genetically transferred part.

And I already admitted that it might not be genetic and I've already said countless times that even if it's not genetic it's still unchangeable.

Mind you, I'm 22 years now and lived quite the sexuality sheltered live where men liked women and men worked out in the gym barechested with other men. Without you knowing my circustances and situations you cannot say what I did know and did not know. Unless you're a mind reader, but I hardly doubt you are. Because if you were you probably would be more calm and subdued and actually trying to see my point.

But you admitted you experienced "confusing feelings" that you did not understand. At the same time you claimed you became bisexual two years ago. Your claims are confusing and I admit, I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you saying those confusing emotions were something other than bisexuality or maybe even homosexuality? Because remember, bisexuality is sexual and emotional attraction to the same sex. That's not something you can suddenly have just because you've made a decision.

Because I do see your points. Really I do and they sound all very acceptable, yet they do not stroke with my experiences on the subject.

What about my experience on the subject? Or is that not important? Personal experience counts for jack shit. One time I saw a flickering light. Does that mean ghosts exist? "Personal experience" is wholly unreliable and is one of the worst ways to prove a point in existence because "personal experiences" are often skewed by a number of factors.

"Have it your way, you were right, the rest of the world is wrong, now go do your victory dance and feel good about yourself."

 

[Ruwrak]

cudo's for the clip

 

[ace_of_something]

I am not asking if you know a bisexual! Okay, now that I've cleared that up, I was wondering if you or someone you know has at one time been a self-accepting homosexual, and then become heterosexual.

I can't think of a single male where this is the case. I can think of oodles an oodles of females who thought they were gay around the ages of 16-23 and then suddenly 'stopped being gay/bisexual' when they got out of college. If stand up comedians and family guy has taught me anything this is fairly common for generation Y. I believe the term is 'college lesbian' 'semester lesbian' or something like that.
It's basically a girl who experiments identifies herself as gay/bi then realizes when she gets outta college she's straight.

 

[Jovlo]

But, like I said, homosexuality has been determined to be partially genetic, there's just a lot of environmental influence upon it. Again, I don't know what you think you're refuting/adding to what I said. It's like you've looked at those three points you quoted and completely ignored everything else I said in that post.

Calm down, calm down.
All I wanted to do is help that silly misconception out of the world that 'homosexuality can't be genetic because gays don't have kids'.
You'd be surprised how many times I've seen that on the Escapist, and it tires me.
I also wanted to give a simplified example, for those who clearly don't know the basics. We both know it's way more complicated than that.
Don't see it as a personal attack.

 

[StrixMaxima]

The causes of homosexuality might be relatively unknown but what is known for sure, 100%, is that your sexual orientation is not a choice, it never has been a choice and trying to pass it off as a choice is just a way to further stigmatize the gay community. Your sexual orientation is NOT a choice, it's NOT a mental disorder and it can never, ever, EVER be changed.

I never said it was a choice. And if you think I'm treating homosexuality as some kind of disease, you are wrong. However, no matter how many bold words you use, we must accept that we don't know exactly what is the homosexual behavior, where does it stem from, and just how deeply the environment plays a role in it.

But I do believe that your sexual orientation can change, during the course of your life, environment and experiences. To and from homosexuality.

Don't be so defensive. No one is talking about social stigmas, here.

I may be late to the argument here, but I think the main issue people are having here is the gay/straight/bisexual dichotomy(?)(is it a dichotomy when there are three things?). Hardly anyone is pure gay straight or bisexual. There is a whole scale(the Kinsey Scale) and everyone fits in somewhere.

My feelings about your gay-turned-straight man is that he very likely does have an attraction to women in some way or he would feel just as unhappy and in the closet now. No, I don't think you can change your sexuality. I do believe it is set, but just not in the boxes people want to place each other in.

I for instance am a gay woman. I am very gay. I haven't slept with a man in well over a decade at this point and I really don't anticipate it in the future, but I know a hot guy when I see one. That doesn't make me any less gay. Rare are the few who are purely on one side or the other. Most fit somewhere in the middle closer to one side or the other.

"Males do not represent two discrete populations, heterosexual and homosexual. The world is not to be divided into sheep and goats. It is a fundamental of taxonomy that nature rarely deals with discrete categories... The living world is a continuum in each and every one of its aspects."

- Kinsey

I did not refer to Kinsey because I am not entirely satisfied with the explanations most scholars of human sexuality provide. But I do agree with you that the subject has several layers of subtleties and nuances, and probably no one is 100% one side or the other.

However, I feel I have no reason to distrust the testimonial I was given, and thus I related it as neutrally as possible. It is the old question on how a report relates to the truth, and the nature of truth and what's real.

 

[serata]

Edit- Jovlo beat me to my argument, no need to make it again.

Calm down, calm down.

QFT, people should learn to accept wiggle room in reality. To paraphrase Einstein, if physical laws are perfect, then they don't describe reality.

 

[Azuaron]

Edit- Jovlo beat me to my argument, no need to make it again.

Calm down, calm down.

QFT, people should learn to accept wiggle room in reality. To paraphrase Einstein, if physical laws are perfect, then they don't describe reality.

You're original response (which was sent directly to my inbox), says a bunch of (condescending hat on) irrelevant, incorrect, and/or redundant nonsense, then (laughably) ends with:

While you are right to say that human behavior is complicated, you are incorrect to blindly assert that the "gay gene" is impossible.

...is exactly why I tend to condescend to people who say things without knowing what they're talking about. I don't have patience for people who yell things out as facts that are patently--and provably--false.

I think you'll find that if you reread what I said, you'll notice I never "blindly asserted" that the "gay gene" was impossible. I instead showed that a single gene completely determining sexuality was (provably!) preposterous, instead being a factor of (probably; it's not completely known, I say that a bunch too!) multiple genes, environmental conditions, social, and familial experiences. My statements were backed by twin studies, cognitive neuroscience, and a comparison to another somewhat rare, highly complex brain condition that manifests long after birth (schizophrenia).

If that's "blindly asserting" something, I think I'll keep it up. Further, given the number of comments and messages I've received supporting my statements, I think they are generally appreciated (despite the condescension, which actually wasn't that present in my original post, but whatever).

However, if you're referring to condescension in my response to Jovlo's response to my original post, I wasn't, generally, being condescending so much as confused. I felt like I was being argued against with most of my own points, which is fairly baffling, and tried to address those points. However,

I also wanted to give a simplified example, for those who clearly don't know the basics. We both know it's way more complicated than that.
Don't see it as a personal attack.

So I think we can all learn a lesson about reading tone of voice, body language, and intent into text on the internet.

 

[intheweeds]

The causes of homosexuality might be relatively unknown but what is known for sure, 100%, is that your sexual orientation is not a choice, it never has been a choice and trying to pass it off as a choice is just a way to further stigmatize the gay community. Your sexual orientation is NOT a choice, it's NOT a mental disorder and it can never, ever, EVER be changed.

I never said it was a choice. And if you think I'm treating homosexuality as some kind of disease, you are wrong. However, no matter how many bold words you use, we must accept that we don't know exactly what is the homosexual behavior, where does it stem from, and just how deeply the environment plays a role in it.

But I do believe that your sexual orientation can change, during the course of your life, environment and experiences. To and from homosexuality.

Don't be so defensive. No one is talking about social stigmas, here.

I may be late to the argument here, but I think the main issue people are having here is the gay/straight/bisexual dichotomy(?)(is it a dichotomy when there are three things?). Hardly anyone is pure gay straight or bisexual. There is a whole scale(the Kinsey Scale) and everyone fits in somewhere.

My feelings about your gay-turned-straight man is that he very likely does have an attraction to women in some way or he would feel just as unhappy and in the closet now. No, I don't think you can change your sexuality. I do believe it is set, but just not in the boxes people want to place each other in.

I for instance am a gay woman. I am very gay. I haven't slept with a man in well over a decade at this point and I really don't anticipate it in the future, but I know a hot guy when I see one. That doesn't make me any less gay. Rare are the few who are purely on one side or the other. Most fit somewhere in the middle closer to one side or the other.

"Males do not represent two discrete populations, heterosexual and homosexual. The world is not to be divided into sheep and goats. It is a fundamental of taxonomy that nature rarely deals with discrete categories... The living world is a continuum in each and every one of its aspects."

- Kinsey

I did not refer to Kinsey because I am not entirely satisfied with the explanations most scholars of human sexuality provide. But I do agree with you that the subject has several layers of subtleties and nuances, and probably no one is 100% one side or the other.

However, I feel I have no reason to distrust the testimonial I was given, and thus I related it as neutrally as possible. It is the old question on how a report relates to the truth, and the nature of truth and what's real.

If I made it seem as though I distrust your testimonial I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I am trying to agree that this is entirely possible and doesn't surprise me in the least.


I would agree that most scholars do not provide an accurate assessment, but I believe the Kinsey Scale has some value to this particular conversation. If only to point out that these categories we want to put each other in are not helpful.

If I may give my own personal testimonial, after I had come out as gay, a few years later, I slept with a man. Holy crap! Did i ever get shit from the straight people in my life! I seriously lost a few friends who I had never had any romantic involvement with. I was told by one angry male friend that he felt 'betrayed' because I had told him I was gay. I am gay. There is no lie being told there(and I don't understand how who I have sex with effects someone I have absolutely no romantic involvement with anyway). My point is that regardless of why or who, people are determined to put people in a box and in my experience they generally become angry or frustrated they can't easily do that or their views are challenged.

Think about the social climate for a young male who is just discovering his sexuality. I use a male in this example just because our culture is much more forgiving on gay females(for entirely unique sexist reasons). Think of all the gay slurs, etc. thrown around by the common teenage male. Any small feelings of gay sexuality may signify to a young guy that he is completely gay. He may not be, he may be bisexual, he may be mostly straight with a few gay tendencies, but to his peer group 'a little gay' means all gay. His choices in sexuality as he perceives them are gay, straight or bi and nothing in between. So the young male thinks he is gay because he got a boner looking at a men's health magazine. He knows if he told anyone in his peer group, they would immediately put him in the gay category. So he wrestles with his thoughts and finally comes to grips with his gayness and comes out. It may not be until he is far more mature that he realizes he doesn't have to choose one or the other, or that he was perhaps hasty in labeling himself anything in the first place.

In terms of the relationship between your report and the truth, another interesting aspect is that the truth as your report relays, is speaking about a human being. A creature who's 'personal truth' is malleable and in constant flux. Whether your report rings true to it's subject could vary from minute to minute.

Ah a quick re-read has lead me to the conclusion that I have rambled thoughts that may or may not be of any interest to you. I was going somewhere with this, but several phone call interruptions have derailed me. But now that I have written it. It stays. My apologies.

 

[StrixMaxima]

If I made it seem as though I distrust your testimonial I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I am trying to agree that this is entirely possible and doesn't surprise me in the least.


I would agree that most scholars do not provide an accurate assessment, but I believe the Kinsey Scale has some value to this particular conversation. If only to point out that these categories we want to put each other in are not helpful.

If I may give my own personal testimonial, after I had come out as gay, a few years later, I slept with a man. Holy crap! Did i ever get shit from the straight people in my life! I seriously lost a few friends who I had never had any romantic involvement with. I was told by one angry male friend that he felt 'betrayed' because I had told him I was gay. I am gay. There is no lie being told there(and I don't understand how who I have sex with effects someone I have absolutely no romantic involvement with anyway). My point is that regardless of why or who, people are determined to put people in a box and in my experience they generally become angry or frustrated they can't easily do that or their views are challenged.

Think about the social climate for a young male who is just discovering his sexuality. I use a male in this example just because our culture is much more forgiving on gay females(for entirely unique sexist reasons). Think of all the gay slurs, etc. thrown around by the common teenage male. Any small feelings of gay sexuality may signify to a young guy that he is completely gay. He may not be, he may be bisexual, he may be mostly straight with a few gay tendencies, but to his peer group 'a little gay' means all gay. His choices in sexuality as he perceives them are gay, straight or bi and nothing in between. So the young male thinks he is gay because he got a boner looking at a men's health magazine. He knows if he told anyone in his peer group, they would immediately put him in the gay category. So he wrestles with his thoughts and finally comes to grips with his gayness and comes out. It may not be until he is far more mature that he realizes he doesn't have to choose one or the other, or that he was perhaps hasty in labeling himself anything in the first place.

In terms of the relationship between your report and the truth, another interesting aspect is that the truth as your report relays, is speaking about a human being. A creature who's 'personal truth' is malleable and in constant flux. Whether your report rings true to it's subject could vary from minute to minute.

Ah a quick re-read has lead me to the conclusion that I have rambled thoughts that may or may not be of any interest to you. I was going somewhere with this, but several phone call interruptions have derailed me. But now that I have written it. It stays. My apologies.

Oh, no offense at all. It is a touchy subject, and there's an old saying in my country that goes like this: "When the subject is sex, everyone gets easily offended, curses, whines and immediately are very interested."

I will forward this whole thread to this friend, and I'll ask if he's got anything to add. It should be interesting.

Finally, I think there are two very important and distinct issues, here:

1 - Blooming sexuality

2 - Mature sexuality

The case I was referring to relates to the second, while most of what was discussed in here relates to the first. I think the difference in experience, maturity and approach can produce some very interesting effects on how homo/bi men perceive themselves and their options.

 

[intheweeds]

Oh, no offense at all. It is a touchy subject, and there's an old saying in my country that goes like this: "When the subject is sex, everyone gets easily offended, curses, whines and immediately are very interested."

I will forward this whole thread to this friend, and I'll ask if he's got anything to add. It should be interesting.

Finally, I think there are two very important and distinct issues, here:

1 - Blooming sexuality

2 - Mature sexuality

The case I was referring to relates to the second, while most of what was discussed in here relates to the first. I think the difference in experience, maturity and approach can produce some very interesting effects on how homo/bi men perceive themselves and their options.

I agree completely. The sexual maturity of the person is a very important distinction that I hadn't considered completely. That certainly does add a very interesting point. I would point out that I feel how a person handles their 'blooming sexuality' and the choices they make then can place them in a box for far longer than they expected, very possibly affecting their 'mature sexuality' choices.

As I have experienced, once you make a outward choice, it can be difficult for your peer group to accept a change. Regardless of which direction you are changing to, there is a coming out process that can be painful and difficult. I would imagine this could keep people in either 'closet' so to speak. In gay female culture, they have this thing they call a 'lesbian card'. Its a joke, but not really. Sleeping with a guy can and probably will get you excommunicated from certain gay communities. Any activity seen as 'less gay' means someone will inevitably joke about ripping up your lesbian card. I can see how this might keep even mature adults from speaking freely. My g/f and I have talked about men sexually, but we had to remind each other that we can't talk about this outside of our apartment - the other gays would lynch us. I have no doubt in my mind that just as i was coming out gay, I lost a few friends. I would lose just as many if I chose to change in the opposite direction. Gays don't like to talk about the negative aspects of the community much because, of course, no one wants to give fodder to the Jerry Falwells of the world, but the truth is gays can be just as close minded and catty as straight people. I would say sometimes more so.

My hypothetical scenario about the male youth is purely sympathetic understanding. I cannot empathize fully, of course, because I am female. There are overlaps to male and females questioning their sexuality, but the differences are ones I cannot speak to. I would be very interested in what your friend has to say on this issue as well. Please pass it along if you so desire.

 

[Rin Little]

The only person I've known to get somewhat close to that example is my friend who went from being lesbian to bi, but she still has a preference for women. But other than that nope.

 

[serata]

I think you'll find that if you reread what I said, you'll notice I never "blindly asserted" that the "gay gene" was impossible.

Which is why I entirely removed my post. I thought it might be a bit flamey and underresearched. I merely meant to say #1 and most importantly, any argument that claims "gay people don't reproduce" has in its foundation a flawed axiom, and #2, that the gay gene has a psychological component is not certain (Read: not /certain/) and allows for a counter argument. Not that it is /wrong/, but that Absolute Truth in this situation is debatable. Maybe your original post wasn't so condescending as I originally read it, I apologize. So I take back that post that I already took back /again,/ and want to know what you think of these two points.

If you have some sources, they would certainly be appreciated.