Despite how dark it sometimes is and how funny the writing can be, I usually find myself thinking of Yahtzee's Dragon Age: Origins review. It definitely tries too hard and ends up seeming more juvenile than mature rather.
Do you think The Witcher series is "mature?"
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I've never met a woman yet who treated sleeping with men like fucking card captors (or a man, happily)...rbstewart7263 said:
Its the same way that django unchained was actually making you feel how brutal slavery really was by escalating everything. Its the first movie that made me feel bad and educated me on things. Other films just looked at it reverently which is fine but it does nothing for me to not know how brutal and terrible something is. Knowing it sure I know slavery was bad hell those three words sound like a tshirt. But "feeling" that slavery was bad now that was an accomplishment. The witcher made me feel just how subjugated the elves were. I certainly didnt smile a wicked patriarchial smile when that poor elf was kept as a sex slave for months on end by the most elfist racist mug in the game. BUT! I did have an appreciation for how that mentality is harmful. These days racism tends to just lead to words and hurt feelings or not getting a job. Seeing the extreme I was able to revile such a thing.bastardofmelbourne said:
Its the same way that django unchained was actually making you feel how brutal slavery really was by escalating everything. Its the first movie that made me feel bad and educated me on things. Other films just looked at it reverently which is fine but it does nothing for me to not know how brutal and terrible something is. Knowing it sure I know slavery was bad hell those three words sound like a tshirt. But "feeling" that slavery was bad now that was an accomplishment. The witcher made me feel just how subjugated the elves were. I certainly didnt smile a wicked patriarchial smile when that poor elf was kept as a sex slave for months on end by the most elfist racist mug in the game. BUT! I did have an appreciation for how that mentality is harmful. These days racism tends to just lead to words and hurt feelings or not getting a job. Seeing the extreme I was able to revile such a thing.bastardofmelbourne said:
please delete
Its the same way that django unchained was actually making you feel how brutal slavery really was by escalating everything. Its the first movie that made me feel bad and educated me on things. Other films just looked at it reverently which is fine but it does nothing for me to not know how brutal and terrible something is. Knowing it sure I know slavery was bad hell those three words sound like a tshirt. But "feeling" that slavery was bad now that was an accomplishment. The witcher made me feel just how subjugated the elves were. I certainly didnt smile a wicked patriarchial smile when that poor elf was kept as a sex slave for months on end by the most elfist racist mug in the game. BUT! I did have an appreciation for how that mentality is harmful. These days racism tends to just lead to words and hurt feelings or not getting a job. Seeing the extreme I was able to revile such a thing.bastardofmelbourne said:
please delete
Such a naive view to think games are merely for enjoyment, rather than the exploration of all emotions.Moonlight Butterfly said:
The sexist acts [ignoring the card fiasco] are there to make you feel uncomfortable, everything in that world is there to make you uncomfortable, the atmosphere their building is that of a shit place to live full of shit people.
I have ive been treated like that. She didnt take a picture and collect it but I was merely a conquest plain and simple which was the implication of the cards and thus the point. Women do it all the time to guys. Go into bar or a dating site, pretend to be so interested in you and so into you and then never call you again the next day.Moonlight Butterfly said:
also I dont know why that triple posted please delete
You missed the point, it makes everyone uncomfortable, that's the idea.Moonlight Butterfly said:
When I said "you" I didn't mean you you, I meant the player.
You asked why "men" get enjoyment from the oppression of women, but it's not about enjoyment, it's about experience. Specifically experiencing the things we wouldn't normally want to experience, in a controlled environment.
You certainly missed Geralt's speech against a mob of zealots that are trying to burn Abigail, a witch, based on their prejudices and the fact that she sleeps around (and he CAN do this and STILL NOT HAVE sex whit her, thats a PLAYER CHOICE, fact that many people have reminded you thouout the thread but YOU choose to ignore in your comments).Moonlight Butterfly said:
You also apparently "missed" Geralt's quest to help Carmen, Vizima's prostitute, who is in love with the Captain of the guards. That¡s 2 disctintive female characters, with backstory, both underdog and very simpathetic ones, that he steps up to help, NOT because they have big boobs, but because he has a kind heart. (You CAN do the opposite, but that is because of the PLAYER CHOICE: it's an RPG).
If you're gonna "read" any social commentary in the game, is that the protagonist sides in principle and action with the underdog, in a socially injust world. THAT I find plenty more interesting than raising an army against orcs, but that's just me...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOFZ9vNFByA
You keep judging a game of 70 hours content for the (bad) impression a minigame made on you, an OPTIONAL minigame that last (counting all sexual encounters) not more than 10 minutes. That's what I call BIAS.
What I find puzzling about your statements, is that The Witcher apparently is "the only" game that has "excluded" you as a gamer(being a female) with its "sexist" portrayals... But you dont say anything about, for example, Assassins Creed, where a male protagonist can "hire" prostitutes for a certain quest, or the Dragon Age series, where the prostitutes are paper thin NPCs with a couple of lines and NOTHING MORE... THEY'RE ONLY THERE AS A SEXIST MINIGAME, but thats OK I guess, because in Dragon Age you can play as a girl...
The gameplay would be a lot more tedious if Geralt collapsed from potion use as he does in the books. Being a witcher he is faster and stronger than normal, he can see in the dark, ... so we could say he is overpowered in game, because there are no downsides.Moonlight Butterfly said:
People tolerate witchers only when they need their services. People in cities say things like : 'Look out, a witcher is in town. Hide your kids.' The game portrayal is a bit more standard RPG, but you can see it everywhere.
I should hope I am not the first to point out the hypocrisy of those supporting the dragon age series calling anyone immature. Honestly while it might be rated M and all.... Outside of the sex, Dragon age is about as mature as most narrative fiction developed for teens and tweens. Its about as complex as most anime. Remove all the sex from Dragon age and you have something that could likely pass for Teen rated game. Swears and "sex" do not a mature game make. Dealing with more adult issues and concepts does, which is what the Witcher does, In spades compared to Dragon Age.
Edit: Dont get me wrong, I loved the original DA, and honestly tolerated DA2 for its story and will play 3 without hesitation, but come on, its really not all that complex on the maturity scale and such an accusation is the pot calling the kettle black.
Edit: Dont get me wrong, I loved the original DA, and honestly tolerated DA2 for its story and will play 3 without hesitation, but come on, its really not all that complex on the maturity scale and such an accusation is the pot calling the kettle black.
When it comes to the friendships, themes and politics? Yes
When it comes to romance? [HEADING=3]NO![/HEADING]
The Witcher series seems just a bit to happy to shove tits in my face at times...aren't we supposed to be loyal to Triss? I mean, I get that the rules of hoity toity weren't quite the same but still, you can bone half the god damn female cast through the game.
When it comes to romance? [HEADING=3]NO![/HEADING]
The Witcher series seems just a bit to happy to shove tits in my face at times...aren't we supposed to be loyal to Triss? I mean, I get that the rules of hoity toity weren't quite the same but still, you can bone half the god damn female cast through the game.
It was worse than just a casual acceptance of domestic violence, as well as beating his wife a man could appeal to what passed as the authorities and have his wife classed as a scold. [http://www.medieval-life-and-times.info/medieval-torture-and-punishment/scolds-bridal.htm] She would then have a metal mask with a built in gag strapped onto her head and dragged through the streets to be mocked and have things thrown at her.The-Traveling-Bard said:
Even back talking by sticking up for herself was enough to warrant treatment like that. The casual description of domestic violence in the Witcher doesn't even have a patch on real Medieval life.
Not "gamers." Male gamers specifically get very defensive when it's implied that a game they like is "sexist." If you're male, under 30 and grew up in the first world, you were probably raised to think that all prejudice is unjustifiable, men and women are equal, and that "sexist" is an awful thing to be. So when someone else says they think a game is sexist, regardless of whether they're right or not, male fans of the game get defensive, because they've been conditioned to think of sexism as abhorrent.Moonlight Butterfly said:
I was putting that forward as an alternative explanation for why people react so defensively when you ask stuff like "Why does the Witcher's medieval fantasy setting have to include institutionalised discrimination against women?" Because your chosen explanation was "Because they enjoy seeing women oppressed," and I thought that was perhaps...not totally accurate.
I'm really confused now because I don't remember saying that. Or anyone saying that, for that matter.
If you mean "enjoy" in a cathartic sense - the same way I might enjoy watching Schindler's List even though it's literally about genocide - then you shouldn't be puzzled. That's how virtually all tragedy and most drama works.
Geralt is discriminated against in-universe. The fact that he's an ideal power fantasy for a contemporary, real-life male is distinct from the fact that in the context of the story, he's considered an abhorrent mutant and has to live on the fringes of society.
It's like how the X-Men are a useful metaphor for - depending on the writer - victims of racial or homophobic discrimination, despite the fact that the attributes they're discriminated against for having are literally superpowers. Poor Wolverine, with his invulnerable adamantium claws and ability to regenerate any injury - such a pariah!
The idea is that the in-universe discrimination against the character serves as a metaphor for real-world discrimination, and whether or not the character's attributes are desirable in the real world isn't relevant. The fact that Geralt is every nerd's wet dream actually highlights the point - racism is stupid, and has stupid motivations. It's so stupid that people will discriminate against a superhero who wanders around the world killing deadly monsters for low pay because he has corpse-pale skin and creepy eyes.
Technically, Geralt has been cheating on his one-true-love Yennefer with Triss for the past two games. I don't think he can cheat on Triss if he's already cheating on Yennefer with Triss. That's like...double adultery.Saviordd1 said:
Say what you want about Geralt - he is not a faithful boyfriend. That's something I'm interesting in seeing in the third game, actually, is Yennefer's reaction to his philandering when they are eventually reunited.
This is actually something really interesting about the game - a lot of the ambient dialogue is people gossiping about you behind your back. Stuff like telling their children to go inside when you walk past, asking "what do witchers really eat?", "Is that a witcher? I thought they had horns!" and stuff like that. It's a really good oppression simulator. That's to say that it creates an atmosphere where you get the feeling that nobody in the town likes you, and that you stand out like a sore thumb.neur0mans3r said:
It would be like if you were playing Mass Effect, and instead of everyone going "There's Shepard, off to save the universe!" they go "goddamn humans...neighbourhood's gone to shit since they got on the Council." Or if they whispered "dyke" behind Femshep's back as she was walking around the Presidium with Liara.
Right. Please explain how Geralt, Triss and Dandelion are shallow stock archetypes and I'll take you seriously. Or maybe Iorveth, Roche and Ves? It shouldn't be a problem for you since all the characters are shallow stock archetypes right?Dark wolverine said:
Also, nobody has claimed that the swearing and tits are what makes The Witcher mature. What people have been saying makes The Witcher mature is the plot that focuses on politics, terrorism, racism, and one mans struggle to survive in a world that treats him as an outcast because he is different.
I think The Witcher is an excellent if flawed game and I often find myself defending it.Moonlight Butterfly said:
But I won't defend the cards exactly because of this kind of thing. If Moonlight feels marginalised because of her gender in relation to gameplay content, then I think it's safe to assume that she may not be the only one uncomfortable with the current state of affairs. And it's a shame because The Witcher is otherwise such an interesting and creative game, with a complex grasp of morality and discussion thereof. The sex cards might seem like a "little thing", but even I remember thinking about how absolutely male The Witcher was. For what it's worth, though, I played The Witcher 2 first and didn't get the same impression.
We all have our hang ups and I think the gender discrimination one is one of the more legitimate out there. But here's my (comparatively minor) example: I'm not a medieval person, but I am a medieval swordsman, if you get my meaning. I don't do reenactments -- I study the martial arts of medieval Europe as part of an ongoing reconstruction effort so we can understand how fighting was actually done back then. In most RPGs, if I want to play a warrior character, then the only way to be mechanically efficient is to be an unskilled lughead with only basic access to the gameplay mechanics of the game. That's not how medieval close combat was at all, and it's really grating to see such a lack of understanding and grasp of the factors that go into swordsmanship across this industry. Video games would be the perfect outlet for implementing the more cerebral aspects of skilled swordsmanship, too.
Of course, that example isn't on the level of things like gender, race and sexuality discrimination, but it helps me understand where others are coming from when they bring things up. Because in all these cases, even my own minor example, they're based on assumptions and presumptions without taking into account a wider array of perspectives and information. And so often, games are dragged down because of it rather than opening up to broader concepts -- be those concepts social, mechanical, narrative or what-have-you.