Do you think The Witcher series is "mature?"

[rbstewart7263]

It's the only game I've played in recent years where I've actually felt rejected as a female gamer

I think the problem is you're talking about "The Witcher" and everyone else is talking pretty much about "The Witcher 2"

The Witcher was sexist few would disagree with that, whereas Witcher 2 merely had sexism in it, but wasn't sexist.

It seems as though a lot of the time you're saying because the game has sexism in it, it must be endorsing sexism.

Well I'd love to have a guarantee that the second game won't give me that uncomfotable feeling the first one did. Maybe that's what I looking for from people. But for every person that assures me its fine there is another who says that it's very male centric.

sigh. well for something to be male centric or "for males" please note the quotations there can we at least agree that a male targeted game tackling racism and misogyny is NOT racist or misogynistic? can we at least agree that anything targeted at a particular gender is not inherently bad? I dont get mad because every scented lotion commercial has a woman advertising for women when "dudez likez lotion too!"

sorry that was a bit rude but My points and questions still stand?

 

[rbstewart7263]

As far as gameplay mechanics go, I really dont see any significant difference between trading flowers for sex, or choosing 3 "correct" dialog lines in order to be "rewarded" by the game with a cinematic sex scene (and then the "love" relationship does not continue further) as in the Bioware games. I can see why some people that are "attached" to some Bioware well written characters may view it defferently, but personal gaming experience aside, the mechanics are almost identical...

Furthemore, not all Bioware characters are written top notch, and I could name several ones off the top of my head (Jack and Miranda in Mass Effect; Isabella in DA2) whose revealing clothes and general demeanor are ALL about sexist male service, but nobody seem to be calling bloddy murder about it.

@BrotherRool, I DO agree with you that the sex encounters in The Withcer (first game) are juvenile... That is (I think) precisely the developers point. They werent thought out very well (in that I agree with you), but the rationale behind them is to be more humorous and tongue in cheek than serious. THat seems to leave some people with a bad taste in their mouths, as in some cases the whole situation is really weird.

But I think this is an extremely subjective issue, that speaks more of the player than the game itself, in some cases... I think that in most cases players NEED some sort of "moral validation" for the sexual encounter, or they feel put off by it, and then blame the game cause they feel ashamed... You COULD've saved Abigail (the witch) without having sex with her, but it seems what is troubling or disturbing you is YOUR preconceptions of what is a "morally correct" sexual encounter... In REAL LIFE, sex happens, more often tahn not without love or commitment, it's called "casual sex". It is politically correct to frown upon it, though it happens. IT IS NOT RAPE. The Witcher is just being honest to its source material (although in a far more juvenile and poorly thought out way, I admit it )-

They do its wrong for me to get a chubby with my media these days but if a girl oogles over a six pack its considered cute.:/

 

[wulf3n]

Well I'd love to have a guarantee that the second game won't give me that uncomfotable feeling the first one did.

If it was the world and the atmosphere that gave you that uncomfortable feeling, other than just the cards, then I wouldn't recommend it because it's pretty much the same.

Maybe that's what I looking for from people. But for every person that assures me its fine there is another who says that it's very male centric.

I guess it depends on how you define "male centric". I do believe that it's targeted at a male audience, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a testosterone fuelled male power trip.

Do the female characters change their personalities just so the player can bonk them lol?

They don't change their personalities, though there are some that are that seem too willing to have sex with the player.

e.g. "You saved my life, I have nothing of value to compensate you. Let's have sex."

Literally no one in the game does that. you get laid when you pay coin and once by your fwb and once I think from a soldier lady who thanks you for respecting her prowess in battle.

What about Mottle? The elven woman you save in Flotsam, who offers to have sex with you in Vergen as a "reward". Then there's the Succubus who offers to have sex with you for killing Ele'yas her "jealous lover".

Did you not play Iorveths path by any chance? or did you get the butchered Australian release of the game?

Edit: And Ves doesn't have sex with you as thanks for "respecting her prowess in battle". She likes/respects Geralt as he treats her like an equal, so they had sex.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Well I'd love to have a guarantee that the second game won't give me that uncomfotable feeling the first one did.

If it was the world and the atmosphere that gave you that uncomfortable feeling, other than just the cards, then I wouldn't recommend it because it's pretty much the same.

Maybe that's what I looking for from people. But for every person that assures me its fine there is another who says that it's very male centric.

I guess it depends on how you define "male centric". I do believe that it's targeted at a male audience, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a testosterone fuelled male power trip.

Do the female characters change their personalities just so the player can bonk them lol?

They don't change their personalities, though there are some that are that seem too willing to have sex with the player.

e.g. "You saved my life, I have nothing of value to compensate you. Let's have sex."

Literally no one in the game does that. you get laid when you pay coin and once by your fwb and once I think from a soldier lady who thanks you for respecting her prowess in battle.

What about Mottle? The elven woman you save in Flotsam, who offers to have sex with you in Vergen as a "reward". Then there's the Succubus who offers to have sex with you for killing Ele'yas her "jealous lover".

Did you not play Iorveths path by any chance? or did you get the butchered Australian release of the game?

Edit: And Ves doesn't have sex with you as thanks for "respecting her prowess in battle". She likes/respects Geralt as he treats her like an equal, so they had sex.

Damn! knew I forgot something yeah I went roche though sometimes I think I might like the ku klux elves a little better than the ku klux humans but whatever.lmao I stand corrected. I would say then that mottle counts. If I were geralt Id turn her down and take money instead as I can spend that cash on poon or whatever if I choose!

 

[The Madman]

Heh, I think it is because it actually had quite an effect on me. It's the only game I've played in recent years where I've actually felt rejected as a female gamer, someone else here said 'it was very male'. Like I said I know enough about it to have an opinion. I'm certainly not clueless about it.

Sorry if stating my opinion annoys you somehow but I have a right to say what I think.

Alright, but why? To use the comic book example again, here are a few female comic protagonist:

Spoiler

What makes those acceptable but not The Witcher? Is it an empowerment thing, because there are a number of powerful female characters in the Witcher setting and games. Is it because it's designed for a male audience? Because I can guarantee you those comic book outfits were as well. Is it an equality thing 'the guys are just as stupidly dressed'? Because Geralt spends more time shirtless than any women in the Witcher games. Or is it just because there's sex between consenting adults involved?

Incidentally this example could work just as well with near any HBO series like Game of Thrones as well as a whole slew of books and movies, not just comics.

I just don't see what makes The Witcher of all things so indefensible. I'll agree that it can be immature, the first game especially. And the card thing? Cheesy as hell, I don't know what the devs were even thinking there. But all things considered worst it got from me was a shake of my head and a wry chuckle, I just don't see what's 'that' bad. Especially not in the second, which had a few eye-roll moments like the 'lesbomancy' pun that pops up at one point, but by and large I quite enjoyed it.

Similarly no one ever has explained to me why The Witcher is so bad but something like Dragon Age is acceptable when it does nearly the exact same thing.

And apologies for the late reply. Life called!

 

[wulf3n]

I think I might like the ku klux elves a little better than the ku klux humans but whatever.lmao I stand corrected.

That's an aspect of the first game that was done better, you were able to actually remain neutral like a Witcher should.

 

[rbstewart7263]

I think I might like the ku klux elves a little better than the ku klux humans but whatever.lmao I stand corrected.

That's an aspect of the first game that was done better, you were able to actually remain neutral like a Witcher should.

technically they are a means to an end for him so it fits.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Heh, I think it is because it actually had quite an effect on me. It's the only game I've played in recent years where I've actually felt rejected as a female gamer, someone else here said 'it was very male'. Like I said I know enough about it to have an opinion. I'm certainly not clueless about it.

Sorry if stating my opinion annoys you somehow but I have a right to say what I think.

Alright, but why? To use the comic book example again, here are a few female comic protagonist:

Spoiler

What makes those acceptable but not The Witcher? Is it an empowerment thing, because there are a number of powerful female characters in the Witcher setting and games. Is it because it's designed for a male audience? Because I can guarantee you those comic book outfits were as well. Is it an equality thing 'the guys are just as stupidly dressed'? Because Geralt spends more time shirtless than any women in the Witcher games. Or is it just because there's sex between consenting adults involved?

Incidentally this example could work just as well with near any HBO series like Game of Thrones as well as a whole slew of books and movies, not just comics.

I just don't see what makes The Witcher of all things so indefensible. I'll agree that it can be immature, the first game especially. And the card thing? Cheesy as hell, I don't know what the devs were even thinking there. But all things considered worst it got from me was a shake of my head and a wry chuckle, I just don't see what's 'that' bad. Especially not in the second, which had a few eye-roll moments like the 'lesbomancy' pun that pops up at one point, but by and large I quite enjoyed it.

Similarly no one ever has explained to me why The Witcher is so bad but something like Dragon Age is acceptable when it does nearly the exact same thing.

And apologies for the late reply. Life called!

I actually prefer powergirls new costume its badass. given I like starfires too.

 

[jollybarracuda]

In it's subject matter, i would say it's borderline mature. It has adult subject matter like nudity and gore, but where The Witcher series really seems to be "mature" is in the intricate stories it tells. If you aren't paying absolute attention, you'll get overloaded with story information, intrigue, lies, and double-crossing, and i would say that it's this kind of sophisticated story telling that makes it mature. It expects you to pay attention, to read your character bios, to think about the lesser of two evils, and to, generally, be a mature player with the attention span of an adult.

 

[The Madman]

I actually prefer powergirls new costume its badass. given I like starfires too.

I'm not sure the word 'badass' applies here. Anyone caught wearing an outfit like that in real life would either be laughed at or arrested for public indecency. Just because it shows less skin doesn't make it much more, ahem, socially acceptable.

But I want to stress I don't actually know much if anything about comics so maybe she's got a stunning personality and there's a practical reason for all these women to be wearing these outfits. I don't know. Just curious why this is perfectly acceptable but The Witchers female cast seem to be much hated in this topic.

I mean I liked Ves from Witcher 2, I thought she was awesome. And Saskia is probably the more moral and trustworthy person in the entire series so far, the only person I'd say 'yes, they're a good person. I'd follow them!'.

 

[endtherapture]

[quote="rbstewart7263" post="9.401339.16545705The elven woman you save in Flotsam, who offers to have sex with you in Vergen as a "reward".[/quote]

She offers to have sex with you, and then she lures you out into the forest, ambushes you and tries to kill you. I think it nicely subverts the whole "sex-as-a-reward" thing.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

She offers to have sex with you, and then she lures you out into the forest, ambushes you and tries to kill you. I think it nicely subverts the whole "sex-as-a-reward" thing.

That's another elven woman. The one Wulf3n refers to is found if you go with Iorveth at the end of Chapter 1. She's basically a woman who needs a mission done and once it is finished she asks if you like payment in coin or sex. In comparison the optional sexual encounter with Ves if you follow Vernon is much better done in that it actually feels like more than just "lets throw some sex in there". The whole encounter with the Succubus can also be considered a subversion, as it is basically presented as Geralt prostituting himself to the Succubus.

To answer the OP, I think that parts of the Witcher series are mature anyway. The storytelling and narrative is definitely mature in that it is both multi-layered and deals with some serious themes while remaining in a firm grey and grey morality. Some parts of the actual gameplay... not so much. The sex cards from The Witcher is a good case in point. The Witcher 2 cleaned up its' act considerably though.

 

[wulf3n]

She offers to have sex with you, and then she lures you out into the forest, ambushes you and tries to kill you. I think it nicely subverts the whole "sex-as-a-reward" thing.

That's a Different elf, specifically Malena [http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Malena_(quest)], Mottle [http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Mottle] you encounter after siding with Iorveth, when you meet up again in Vergen she offers you sex as a reward.

edit: Like Gethsemani said.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

However, in the place where I start to disagree with you, frankly the game would have been maturer if it had a hot-coffee mechanic instead of the moronic conversation mechanic it had instead. In one case in particular, when the Witch proffered sex in exchange for you trying to help her not be burned alive, if you accepted in a similar situation in real life, I believe you could go to court for statutory rape. It really repulses me that the developers didn't notice that taken sexual favours off a women because she's scared you'll leave her to die otherwise is an incredibly wrong thing to do. And the dialogue for that instance is absolutely sickening 'I've wanted you from the moment I first laid eyes on you,', then why the fuck is he taking advantage of her then. And you get a collectible for doing it. I absolutely cannot abide men taking sexual advantage over women from a position of power and we have a semi-reward mechanic for it? When the dialogue started and I began to catch a glimpse of where it was going, I couldn't believe what was going on, that someone would write this and not know what they were doing.

I won't deny that what you said entails lots of unfortunate implications and that your way of interpreting the events surrounding the witch is entirely valid. But let me offer an alternative explanation, one that makes the witch less of a victim and grants her more agency:
By the point Geralt finds her in that cave he knows that she has helped all the people in the village with their envious squabbles by using her magic to aid them in hurting their loved ones. She's pretty much the agent who brought the monsters to the village. She knows that Geralt knows and fears that he is coming to either kill her or bring her to the villagers, but she also hopes that Geralt can be swayed to see her point of view: That the villagers brought it all on themselves by acting like they did. If reason fails and Geralt still wants her dead or "brought to justice" (not really what I'd call it) she hopes to be able to trick Geralt into taking her side anyway by sleeping with him. She is basically counting on Geralt to be too much of a horndog if all else fails, in essence tricking him into taking her side.
If you interpret it like this you are suddenly left with Geralt looking like a horny teenage fool while the witch comes off as a scheming trickste.

I am not saying the explanation I offered is any more valid and I can only admit that I was just as disturbed by the scene the first time I played it as you were. I think that has more to do with shoddy dialogue writing and a failure to understand just how ambiguous the scene is though.

 

[Defeated Detective]

Yes, I think it is.

The common misconception among people is that The Witcher game franchise is mature because of the sex aspect and how expletives are thrown out a lot here and there(based off Yahtzee's review of TW2) which is honestly the wrong and most immature way of seeing it, The sex aspect is certainly a form of adult entertainment, but it's not what makes the Witcher franchise mature as how Angry Joe and some of the staff of CDPR paint it out to be(for advertisement purposes, sex sells).

What makes The Witcher franchise mature, more mature than any other western RPG is the fact that you can feel how heavy the consequences of your actions are, there are no good endings where it's all sparkles and rainbows, people have to die and countries have to fall based on the decisions you make, it's not like your generic Bioware RPG where the choices you choose will only usually affect what lines are going to be said, how things are gonna go for the pairings you go for and ultimately whether you're going to get the good ending or the bad ending. With TW2, there's one choice where you have to not only betray one good and likable guy once but TWO times throughout the entire game, leaving him to rot in his quest in which you promised to help, another involved saving people from a burning building or to go after one baddie who has been an oppressive enforcer for a village he's supposed to serve. The moral dilemma you have to face from the choices you make in this game is heavy, something only the few of the best RPGs have been able to offer(Deus Ex and VtmB, I would've added Bioshock if only it offered more than just a Very good/normal/insidious ending)

Again people, it's not the sex, or how this game feels misogynistic(It's meant to mirror the middle ages, after all), it's how you will have to deal with the choices you make as you go through the entire game.

 

[BrotherRool]

-snip-

That is a pretty fair interpretation, but even that I really heavily dislike, because it's back to a way of thinking where the women is evil for using her corrupting sexual powers (which is exactly how Gerard describes it to people if you choose) and the guy is not seen as responsible for abusing his decision.

The statutory rape thing... as I recall, you're able to turn down the witch's sex offer and still save her. So it's up to the player whether or not they want to possibly commit statutory rape. You can save her, kill her, or have sex with her AND THEN save her or kill her. So you're free to be a raging asshole, a saint, or something in between. I think that's what the series is all about. Geralt is not made out to be a real good guy or a bad guy. In fact, you're actually encouraged to be neutral and, more or less, selfish.

Okay I said this was a personal thing to me, so basically that idea as presented really disgusts me. Rape is something that can damage people so badly that decades later something can trigger a flashback and suddenly they're there experiencing the feeling of being raped again. It can destroy your ability to trust people and make you spend your whole life watching your back. People have been driven to suicide or become unable to defend themselves from further attempts at rape.

I just personally don't want to touch a game that even borderline contains it because 'you're free to be a raging asshole'. Being evil is only fun when it's not serious and I can't take rape as anything but serious (somewhere in this thread I've already gone into why massacring people in a game isn't as bad fictionally).

For comparison, Katawa Shoujo has a scene where a character offers another character sex, even though she doesn't really want it because she's afraid he'll withdraw his friendship, and unrealising he accepts. And then afterwards the game portrays it as an incredibly negative act which has damaged their relationship and caused both of them huge amounts of regret. It's got a very strong story purpose, it's deliberately designed to give the player a large negative shock and the event is very realistic and character appropriate.

And I still mentioned in a review of the game that I wasn't completely convinced the story was worth including an act as negative as that.

Then I played the Witcher. Where they give you a collectible for it. I'm not going to say other people should feel the same way I do, there are reasons why I might be more sensitive in matters like this. But it's going to give me personal disgust for the game, and in matters of maturity, that the writers couldn't see the unfortunate implications is not a great sign (as far as sex goes). I doubt there could be anyone who could compare Katawa Shoujo to the Witcher and claim the Witcher was maturer for all that KS says 'whore' less often.

As for the misogyny thing, I don't think there is an "Obvious hatred of women" (LOL) in The Witcher. Yahtzee says that showing off cleavage makes the game misogynistic? I'm sorry, but that's stupid. I tend not to read Yahtzee's articles, because of stupid shit like that, so excuse me if I'm ignorant to other points he makes. If showing off cleavage is misogynistic, most women are misogynistic. Misogynistic is a word that gets thrown around a lot today, but I don't think most people use it properly. The Witcher does not hate women, but I might agree that it was a tad misguided in including its.. uh... collectibles. As for the cleavage? PERHAPS it was overdone, but The Witcher certainly wouldn't be the first. It was also toned down significantly in the sequel. And the cussing like sailors thing? I really don't see the problem there. Frankly, I found it refreshing. Although, if I have one critique for the series, it's that they go from saying "Whore" in The Witcher 1 to saying "Plow" in The Witcher 2. As in, "Plow yourself, whore." I thought it was nice for fleshing out the language and slang of the setting, but it was kind of a jarring change.

The point of the quote was that Yahtzee didn't consider the game misogynistic. That he didn't think there was an 'obvious hatred of women', just that other people had come to that conclusion and he believes that rather than all women desiring to get down and beg for a touch of Geralt after a flower or him asking for payment on services delivered, didn't come from an inability to recognise women having independent thought and not willing to lay down in a second for the first guy to throw a daisy at them but that the writers were caught up in a silly fantasy of a guy walking round having all the sex they can desire and just forgot to look at it from the other perspective. I don't believe they were misoginistic ever (although the collectibles are coming really close), just the designers were not putting any thought into the system at all.

The maturity thing: I think everyone has a different definition of this word. Some people define it as dark, depressing games, others violent games, and others still have a more... loose definition. But I think that discounting The Witcher as immature because of its "Collectibles" is an overreaction. I don't think it treats women unfairly. I mean, if you really look at it, Geralt is the biggest whore of them all. (Or, he can be.) And when it comes to the really despicable people in The Witcher, most of them are men. So, pick your poison. Horrible men or slutty women.

Thats really not a good point. Thats what women complain about now, that they get called whores and sluts when its fine for a guy to lay as many people as he likes (admirable), which you have to admit, the game kinda conveys.

But I'm not going to push that further because I don't think the game is too misogynistic (ish), but that doesn#t change whether it#s depiction of women is mature and I still think it isn't. It's depiction of women is dark, they have lots of negative types, bad words and rapists, but it's not mature because it doesn't handle those things in a complex way. When it talks about racism there's a lot of subtle interaction going on with some very real parallels to the world at large, and it doesn't pull any punches. With women, it's still pretty much 'lol boobs' but with the dark stuff colouring it. I'm only talking about Witcher 1, people say Witcher 2 is better at it and I'll believe that

In light of being able to avoid the witch ordeal, does that change your perception of the game at all? I think you'd like it if you gave it a fair chance. And The Witcher 2 is a huge improvement in every way. I feel like a lot of people on this forum who hate on The Witcher series do so only because Yahtzee said so. And it's a shame, because it's an excellent series, even if the original was a little rough around the edges. TW2 was significantly more refined. Cleavage is a little more sparing, and as I mentioned earlier the language is a little more colorful, the characters are more interesting. I could go on. It does deal with some dark issues, but I thought they handled them well. If you do decide to give it another shot, let me know how it turns out. I'm genuinely curious if you'll like the series.

Also: I think Yahtzee is a twit, if that wasn't obvious. Though I don't expect to win many favors with that sentiment.

For me avoiding the witch ordeal doesn't change anything, I knew you could avoid it, I explored it pretty thoroughly because I was finding it hard to believe that no-one was going to point at that Geralt was a dick if you went through it. But I think I've explained why in my particular case, just including it in a game is fairly mindblowing for me.

Interestingly, that Yahtzee quote I first heard when I was attacking the Witcher in another thread and someone said 'no the game isn't misogynistic, check this quote out'. So I can safely say that it wasn't Yahtzee who coloured my opinion of the game. (and actually he's slightly wrong in the quote, because whether the developers were women-hating or not doesn't actually affect whether the game is misogynistic. I could be an idiot and make 'sandwich maker extreme' where you play as a women who has to serve up sandwiches in the kitchen as quickly as possible for her husband, with no bad intentions, and the game concept (unless it was a joke) would be pretty bad still).

Incidentally, can I thank you on being so fair? It sounded like you were really interested in helping inform me and with that information maybe help me change my views, rather than being defensive and trying to score a point. It was pretty cool (I'm getting a bit tired of this thread now, I guess my first post must have been on the first page or something and some people have taken a lot of personal offense to my attacks on the game )

 

[Seneschal]

snip.

Yeah but I wasn't even comparing them that way...

The fact is Skyrim present women as more equal to men than the Witcher 1. Depth or no you can't really dispute that. It has absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about.

That's because in Skyrim they differ by having a slightly different 3D model. That doesn't make them "depicted as equally capable," that just makes every character interchangeable. Which makes sense; it's a light-hearted high-fantasy playground with lots to show and little to say.

On the other hand, The Witcher 2 had wild plot gyrations driven almost in equal parts by both genders (there are slightly more key female characters than male ones, but mostly because the Lodge of Sorceresses plays an important part). The in-universe attitude towards women is just as essential as racism and xenophobia in establishing the feel of the setting; none of those things can just be amputated because they feel icky for some people. Both genders drive the plot with equally matched skill and equally strong convictions, which makes the fact that one gender is discriminated against all the more visible.

I don't get the outrage about the Witcher, really. It's a series that has more to say about minorities and unequal rights than most others in gaming, yet it gets all the scorn. I especially hate the "it has naughty words"-complaint; that's the most childish attitude one can have towards swear-words. Any linguist worth his salt will tell you how incredibly important and expressive they are.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

-snip-

That is a pretty fair interpretation, but even that I really heavily dislike, because it's back to a way of thinking where the women is evil for using her corrupting sexual powers (which is exactly how Gerard describes it to people if you choose) and the guy is not seen as responsible for abusing his decision.

Sure, that's why I said I wasn't comfortable with the scene to begin with, even if I interpreted it differently from you. There should definitely have been some form of backlash against Geralt for sleeping with her and then selling her out anyway and the whole "evil witch bribing with sex"-theme is just a little bit too overt and damning of female sexuality. On the other hand if you save her and meet her later (in Chapter 4?) it turns out she was never that much of an evil witch, but just a woman desperate not to die and ready to do anything to survive, and that she had settled down in another village where she has found some form of peace.

In the end, I'd never argue that the Witcher wasn't shock full of unintended (or thinly veiled) sexism. It was the game where just about every female NPC of any importance looked like a streetwalker, no matter what their job and seemed just a little too obsessed with naked women. The Witcher 2 seems to have remedied that problem for the most part however.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

SNIP

You won't find me defending certain portrayals of women in comic books any time soon. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Like video games I love comic books and their characters but I don't like the gravity defying clothing and mangled bodies men sometimes draw.

Something that bothered me in The Witcher was something that other people have also mentioned in this thread. The way it portrayed Geralt as being a stud for sleeping with all these women but the women themselves were somehow portrayed as evil for using their sexual wiles.

I also didn't like the way the witch character (and seems like I'm not the only one in this thread) seemed to completely change her personality in a second so they could set her up with Geralt. Like one minute she was a capable women defending herself against lecherous men and in the next second she was like a swooning damsel 'Oh my hero how can I reward you'...whut. For me that's as bad as comic boobs and butt poses and a warrior princess like Starfire looking like a pole dancer...

Spoiler: If you ask me this is what Starfire should look like

As you point out yes I do love comics. But it doesn't mean I love everything about them.