Do you think The Witcher series is "mature?"

[Gearhead mk2]

Let me guess. You have not played it right? It is so much more then just a "porno" as you describe it.

I have not played it, but the porno stands out from what I've seen about it because it's the only thing in the game worth remebering. Everything else I've seen or heard about the series makes it seem like boring, generic, grimdark fantasy. I admit trying to splice together some stuff was cool (like the main character being genetically altered by alchemy) but if I wanted a dark fantasy setting with a mixture of tech and magic and without a single likeble character, I'd just go play Warhammer 40K or something. The fact that The Witcher gets so much hype from PC elitest snobs is just icing on the cake.

 

[voltair27]

Well, if I were to compare the Dragon Age Series to the Witcher series, I'd say that The Witcher series is a hell of a lot more "mature" in that it deals with darker themes and such in a very straightforward manner. The gray morality it enforces makes it a lot darker than Dragon Age but Dragon Age was much more "fantastical" on the whole. However, DA2 tried to really enforce their themes in a pretty ineffective manner, so nothing really seemed to matter to me. The Witcher makes you look at the world as it relates to Geralt and that results in you seriously considering your choices rather than choosing the default "good" choice.

While neither series is entirely "mature," The Witcher is on the whole more "mature."

EDIT: In a sense, The Witcher is a more realistic portrayal of the fantasy genre. Swearing, sex, and such are seen in real life and your average person either takes it with a grain of salt or makes jokes. Dragon Age is serious and very clean cut. It has themes it wants to push but it doesn't do it in a very realistic fashion. Dragon Age feels like High Fantasy while The Witcher feels like Dark Fantasy.

 

[voltair27]

Let me guess. You have not played it right? It is so much more then just a "porno" as you describe it.

I have not played it, but the porno stands out from what I've seen about it because it's the only thing in the game worth remebering. Everything else I've seen or heard about the series makes it seem like boring, generic, grimdark fantasy. I admit trying to splice together some stuff was cool (like the main character being genetically altered by alchemy) but if I wanted a dark fantasy setting with a mixture of tech and magic and without a single likeble character, I'd just go play Warhammer 40K or something. The fact that The Witcher gets so much hype from PC elitest snobs is just icing on the cake.

If you haven't played it then your opinion has no weight whatsoever.

And The Witcher is NOTHING like 40K. If you had played it, you would know that.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

FINALLY someone else that's familiar with Scott Lynch. It's been getting damned frustrating how little known he is despite being such an amazing author. He deserves more attention.

Lynch is probably my least favorite of my most favorite branch of fantasy...that being aggressively grey-scale low fantasy. I prefer Martin's obsessive world building (although he's starting to get lost in his own details) and Abercrombie's verve and wit to Lynch's floral prose. Still...good books. Better than most.

Many people who dislike fantastic elements in stories prefer Low Fantasy because it doesn't require as much suspension of disbelief. Because it is less fantastic and often more bloody and gritty, many people consider it more "mature".

However, like with all things, maturity and quality have nothing to do with genre. Some people pretend that they do because they want to seem mature while enjoying the things that they enjoy, and they want to make fun of people who enjoy what they don't enjoy, but that is just people being pretentious jerks and has nothing to do with the quality of the actual work being looked at.

I'll generally agree with this, with the caveat that it is my experience with low fantasy that it tends to (not universally, but tends to) tackle more "adult" themes and plot elements than high fantasy, which seems to routinely fall into the honey trap of plucky heroes vs ultimate evil. It's very rare to find high fantasy that doesn't aggressively ape Tolkien, as well, making it a highly incestuous sub genre.

The problem with "mature" is that it's something of a value judgment, and thus highly subjective. While I don't think the politics and dark worlds of games like The Witcher or books like GoT would appeal to the very young (hence the "adult" tag), magic and flights of fantasy have an ageless appeal. When I dismiss a game like Dragon Age as being for young adults, it's not the spells and orcs doing it, it's the binary morality, Boy's Own Adventure plotting and PG-13 presentation. In fairness to Dragon Age, it does take some wild stabs at (extremely broad) racism and prejudice metaphors, but it has difficulty weaving them into the subtext, and unlike the Witcher it's pretty clear about whom it considers to be on the side of the angels.

I have not played it, but the porno stands out from what I've seen about it because it's the only thing in the game worth remebering. Everything else I've seen or heard about the series makes it seem like boring, generic, grimdark fantasy. I admit trying to splice together some stuff was cool (like the main character being genetically altered by alchemy) but if I wanted a dark fantasy setting with a mixture of tech and magic and without a single likeble character, I'd just go play Warhammer 40K or something. The fact that The Witcher gets so much hype from PC elitest snobs is just icing on the cake.

Having elaborate opinions on games you've never played, shows you've never watched, books you've never read, etc, is probably something you want to keep to yourself. It doesn't reflect well on you, is what I'm saying.

Neither does the axe you are grinding about PC gamers, while we're on the topic.

 

[oRevanchisto]

The Witcher isn't mature in terms of sex, women and NPC dialogue. In fact, it's incredibly immature and half the dialogue has been written by a 13 year old. There's a whole gameplay mechanic that would give people who know what a female is migraine's just thinking about the design of it.

'I couldn't sleep last night over the sound of my neighbour beating his wife' as NPC dialoge is something that belongs in Saints Row, it is the purple dildo of maturity and is only fitting in a game which doesn't understand the words it's using.


However I think once you get over the fact the writers have giggling fits whenever they hear the word 'whore', I think the politics and grey morality is fairly mature. Overall there was too much juvenile crud for me, but fantasy is often famously airy fairy and bringing in some grit is a gesture I can understand a lot of people getting behind. And the racism stuff was done pretty well.


So not Planescape: Torment, and pretty darn juvenile in some aspects, but a decent job in others

Pretty much this. There is this tendency for people to believe that "Mature" means dark and a lot of sex, Game of Thrones for example has this same idea. But that is not something that makes a game or story "Mature", it's all about the subject matter. Dealing with the various political factions and the subject of racism towards non-humans is what makes the game mature, someone shouting out "whore" or showing their titties is not.

Dragon Age: Origins for example is a mature story and the way BioWare deals with relationships is also very mature, and yet they dont have to have constant cursing or nudity to show that they are a "big boy" game. Now, I'm not saying a game can't have cursing and nudity and still be considered good and serious but it has to be within context. Showing off nudity or having lots of cursing just for the sake of having it doesnt make the game any more mature, it just comes off as some little kids idea of "mature".

 

[Gearhead mk2]

If you haven't played it then your opinion has no weight whatsoever.

No. If I hadn't studied it, then my opinion would have no weight whatsoever. I don't just blindly hate on stuff. If I hear something that piques my interest, for better or worse, I investigate it. Even for stuff tht evryone and their mother knows is bad, like Twilight, I always look it up before I start praising/raging. Like I said, there are some aspects of it The Witcher I like, but from what I've seen of it the series as a whole comes off as fairly pretentious when it's main claims to maturity seem to be constant swearing, generic dark fantasy and a sex card collecting minigame as opposed to anything actually deep.

 

[Legion]

*snip*

Hmmm, that's very well put, and I can see your point. I can see where you are coming from, and I more or less agree on all the points you made.

That's not to say that I think censorship is a good idea, but I can certainly agree that people should think deeply before including things such as rape in their fiction, and I am completely against the idea of including it purely for the case of trying to be dark and edgy.

I do feel that sometimes, when it comes to sexual matters people tend to see what they want to see though. For example I was flicking through an Xbox magazine today and came across their article on the new Tomb Raider game. They showed a picture of Lara Croft climbing a tower and the caption underneath sarcastically said "Nope. There's nothing phallic about this at all..." which I personally felt was ridiculous. Nobody thinks it's sexual when it's Ezio in Assassins Creed, or Jason Brody in Farcry 3, but as it's a female, it's "got" to be a sexual innuendo.

As for how this relates to rape or sexual violence, I think some people see it to be used as a tool to be "dark" in games even when it isn't. Nobody seems to think The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo has rape for the sake of it, but games seem to have this almost unique criticism where serious issues are automatically assumed to be controversial for shock value rather than adding to the story itself.

 

[Gearhead mk2]

Having elaborate opinions on games you've never played, shows you've never watched, books you've never read, etc, is probably something you want to keep to yourself. It doesn't reflect well on you, is what I'm saying. Neither does the axe you are grinding about PC gamers, while we're on the topic.

I know I do look a kinda bad here, but I just wanted to state what I thought of the series after I looked at it. You don't always need to see something firsthand to judge it: you can research it, analyse it, pick it apart. I haven't researched The Witcher amazingly deeply I admit, but I'm not stating my opinion to be the be-all-end-all correct answer. I'm just saying what I think of the series after I've given it a look. And I'm not hating on PC gamers. I play 360 and PC in equal measure. I'm hating on the people that honestly belive that "glorious PC gaming master race" stuff.

 

[voltair27]

If you haven't played it then your opinion has no weight whatsoever.

No. If I hadn't studied it, then my opinion would have no weight whatsoever. I don't just blindly hate on stuff. If I hear something that piques my interest, for better or worse, I investigate it. Even for stuff tht evryone and their mother knows is bad, like Twilight, I always look it up before I start praising/raging. Like I said, there are some aspects of it The Witcher I like, but from what I've seen of it the series as a whole comes off as fairly pretentious when it's main claims to maturity seem to be constant swearing, generic dark fantasy and a sex card collecting minigame as opposed to anything actually deep.

Constant swearing seems to be an overhype. There's about as much swearing in the game as in your average everyday life. It's pretty present, but not as noticeable as you think.

And The Witcher is FAR from generic. It's one of the only settings I've seen that has magic users exploring science with their talents. They know about genetics and other modern day subjects because some wizards took the time to explore the natural world. Even Eberron doesn't do that.

And the sexcard collecting is a minigame. It's ignorable. I had no problem with it and found it an amusing aside more than anything. If you take it as a major feature of the game, then you're clearly biased.

Some parts of the game, such as stilted dialogue and odd parts of the plot, are definitely detractors but overall it's a good game.

 

[BrotherRool]

*snip*

Hmmm, that's very well put, and I can see your point. I can see where you are coming from, and I more or less agree on all the points you made.

That's not to say that I think censorship is a good idea, but I can certainly agree that people should think deeply before including things such as rape in their fiction, and I am completely against the idea of including it purely for the case of trying to be dark and edgy.

I do feel that sometimes, when it comes to sexual matters people tend to see what they want to see though. For example I was flicking through an Xbox magazine today and came across their article on the new Tomb Raider game. They showed a picture of Lara Croft climbing a tower and the caption underneath sarcastically said "Nope. There's nothing phallic about this at all..." which I personally felt was ridiculous. Nobody thinks it's sexual when it's Ezio in Assassins Creed, or Jason Brody in Farcry 3, but as it's a female, it's "got" to be a sexual innuendo.

As for how this relates to rape or sexual violence, I think some people see it to be used as a tool to be "dark" in games even when it isn't. Nobody seems to think The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo has rape for the sake of it, but games seem to have this almost unique criticism where serious issues are automatically assumed to be controversial for shock value rather than adding to the story itself.

That's fair enough, the way the media, and particularly the non-gaming media, handles sex in games is ridiculously sensationalist. Like that Mass Effect scandal, over a tame, plot relevant sex scene that wouldn't even make someone bat an eyelid in any other medium. And there are a lot of instances where the gaming community can get all over-wrought with this stuff, you're Lara Croft example sounds absolutely mad.

I think games are still finding their feet though, and their are lots of cases where the serious issues aren't there to have serious issues, and the Witcher as far as sex (but not racism) is one of those (although probably not exactly to seek controversy) but we're getting a lot of games now, particularly recently that are taking serious issues and doing things with them that no other medium could (Katawa Shoujo, Catherine, Spec:Ops, even Far Cry 3) and I think it's beginning to be recognised.

 

[Gearhead mk2]

Constant swearing seems to be an overhype. There's about as much swearing in the game as in your average everyday life. It's pretty present, but not as noticeable as you think. And The Witcher is FAR from generic. It's one of the only settings I've seen that has magic users exploring science with their talents. They know about genetics and other modern day subjects because some wizards took the time to explore the natural world. Even Eberron doesn't do that. And the sexcard collecting is a minigame. It's ignorable. I had no problem with it and found it an amusing aside more than anything. If you take it as a major feature of the game, then you're clearly biased. Some parts of the game, such as stilted dialogue and odd parts of the plot, are definitely detractors but overall it's a good game.

I admit, I did not know about the whole "studying magic as a science" bit. That is a really cool, interesting idea. And a lot of RPGs do have some odd plot twists and some bad speech. Just thank god it's not at FFX levels. But the sex card thing? I wasn't saying it was an integral part of the game, I know it's a optional minigame. I was saying it seemed to me that it was the game's main claim to maturity, and frankly if a slightly objectifying card game is the best you've got...

As a huge Wh40k nerd; i will take issue with that statement about wh40k. First things first: It is a dark SC-FI fantasy. HUGE diffrence between those two worlds. Second, it seems that you haven't read any of the gaunts ghost novels or any other of the black library books. There are a lot of likable characters in the setting. I bet that you haven't played any of the games either then. Neither the boardgame or any of the video games, based on your track record.

I'm an associate with a guy who's a huge 40K fan on this site. He's tried explaning the verse and all it's twists and turns, but from what I've heard of it, it's just trying to be dark for the sake of being dark, and even with that it's going so overboard I can't really take it seriously. Da Orkz are the only thing I've heard of in that verse that I like because they seem to realise just how stupid and over-the-top everything is and just go crazy with it, but even with them I think they're massivley OP.

 

[voltair27]

I'm an associate with a guy who's a huge 40K fan on this site. He's tried explaning the verse and all it's twists and turns, but from what I've heard of it, it's just trying to be dark for the sake of being dark, and even with that it's going so overboard I can't really take it seriously. Da Orkz are the only thing I've heard of in that verse that I like because they seem to realise just how stupid and over-the-top everything is and just go crazy with it, but even with them I think they're massivley OP.

Yeah, 40K works like that but if you actually zoom into some of the small things, it's a worthwhile setting. The Macro is really horribly put together and the canon contradicts itself a great deal. But the Micro is pretty interesting. Play Dark Crusade, it's really fun.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I played the first one and the cards made me feel physically ill. I didn't buy Witcher 2 because of that. A lot of people defend it by saying 'Oh it's the books setting everything is sexist'. Well that's nice and everything but it doesn't stop it from making me feel uncomfortable.

So yeah it's probably mature in the way Leisure suit Larry is mature...

It would be nice to enjoy the gameplay without that stuff being rubbed in your face but what can you do. Hoping cdprojeckt bring an RPG out one day with a different setting so maybe I can play it.

It's the only AAA game series I really feel excluded from as a female.

 

[Gearhead mk2]

40K works like that but if you actually zoom into some of the small things, it's a worthwhile setting. The Macro is really horribly put together and the canon contradicts itself a great deal. But the Micro is pretty interesting. Play Dark Crusade, it's really fun.

RTS' aren't really my thing, but I'll give it a look. If all else fails, I could just get Soulstorm for the lols.

 

[voltair27]

40K works like that but if you actually zoom into some of the small things, it's a worthwhile setting. The Macro is really horribly put together and the canon contradicts itself a great deal. But the Micro is pretty interesting. Play Dark Crusade, it's really fun.

RTS' aren't really my thing, but I'll give it a look. If all else fails, I could just get Soulstorm for the lols.

Eh, Soulstorm was plagued with absurdly long loading screens and a cheating AI. Necrons and Eldar would absolutely destroy everything in their path.

Besides, you need the main Dawn of War game and each of the previous expansions in order to use all the races.

 

[unindexedsearchengine]

Well, if throwing tits, cussing and politicking into a game makes it mature, then yes. Personally, I didn't see any big difference compared to most other games regarding maturity. Don't get me wrong, I love the Witcher series, but it ain't the shining beacon of intellectual superiority most of the fans and marketing make it out to be.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

It's not mature, it's just got a high age rating. Spec Ops: The Line is mature. The Dark Knight is mature. Avatar: The Last Airbender is mature. Why? Because they dive into serious isusses with good writing and intelligence. The Witcher is just a porno with a thin layer of extreme bloodshed, generic dark fantasy, awful gameplay and glorious PC master race propoganda thrown over it.

Saying that the Witcher is "a porno with a thin layer of dark fantasy" is less justified than saying that The Dark Knight is "a superhero film," or that Spec Ops: The Line is "a jingoistic military shooter."

That's like calling Van Gogh's Sunflowers an illustration for an agricultural textbook.

Edit: Oh, look. You haven't actually played it. What a surprise.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I know I do look a kinda bad here, but I just wanted to state what I thought of the series after I looked at it. You don't always need to see something firsthand to judge it: you can research it, analyse it, pick it apart.

Until you have experienced it in its completion, you will always have an incomplete understanding of it. You referenced Avatar: The Last Airbender earlier. My only exposure to that series has been through the notoriously poor M. Night Shyamalan film, and an art style that I find reminiscent (in still shots) of bad Saturday Morning Cartoons. Would it be appropriate for me to form an opinion based around these impressions? Or would it be unfair to the material?

I played the first one and the cards made me feel physically ill. I didn't buy Witcher 2 because of that. A lot of people defend it by saying 'Oh it's the books setting everything is sexist'. Well that's nice and everything but it doesn't stop it from making me feel uncomfortable.

So yeah it's probably mature in the way Leisure suit Larry is mature...

I didn't care for the cards either. I won't say they made me physically ill, but there was a definite squick factor to them, and I was embarrassed both to be playing the game, and embarrassed for CD Projekt having something like that in there. The second game, thankfully, abandoned them, and did not treat sexual congress as a "gotta catch em all" mini-game, Geralt's fabled promiscuity notwithstanding.

Not sure LSL is a fair analogue for either game, although I can see where you might have gotten that impression from Witcher 1.