Do you think The Witcher series is "mature?"

[BloatedGuppy]

Is that enough to earn you a suspension now? I haven't been to active over the last few months. I don't remember the mods being that tight about the level of aggression in peoples posts back when I was.

As always it depends on the mods, but I've seen calmer posts earn infractions.

Yeah because medieval worlds totally had elves and monsters. The thing you can't possibly miss is sexism?

What is wrong with people.

Alright, as long as I'm chastising that majestic specimen of all that is good and right in the world, Smash, I might as well chastise you as well for this needlessly confrontational post.

Modeling medieval European society has become something of a commonplace trope amongst fantasy authors, most particularly low fantasy authors. You can argue that this is lazy writing for a variety of reasons...the existence of magic and fantastical elements in these worlds suggests that power might have developed in very different ways than it did in our own society. Would we still have a feudal society if the peasantry could run around throwing fireballs? Would we still have warring kingdoms if humanity faced an ever-present outside threat in the form of slavering monsters? Would women still be an oppressed underclass if some of the most powerful and fearsome individuals in the world were women? All questions that seldom get explored.

I don't know that it's directly SEXIST, though, any more than Mad Men is a sexist show for exploring 60's society, or The Sopranos is sexist for its portrayal of the role of women inside the Mafia. Women are not portrayed as innately less capable than men in The Witcher, nor are the primary female characters utterly bereft of agency or purpose outside of fawning over the male lead.

The biggest flaw in the series was that loathsome card collecting mini-game, and it has thankfully been abandoned. I can't say for sure whether or not you'd like The Witcher 2, and you do seem to have developed quite a confirmation bias against it so perhaps it is likely that you would not. But it's not an expensive game, often on sale these days for roughly $10, and it is one of the few RPG series going these days with a heavy focus on plot and character now that Bioware had gone full retard. As a fan of the genre, you probably owe it to yourself to give it a fair chance.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

The thing is though that those things you are comparing it too are based on history and are not fantasy. I don't know why guys are so defensive of this trope? Does it make you feel good or powerful to see women being downtrodden or something? There is a reason why games like Skyrim, Mass Effect and Fallout are popular with female gamers. It's because we aren't portrayed as second class citizens.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

I haven't played Witcher even though I like the type of game it is... I think I have actually gotten spoiled by being able to choose a female version of the protagonist. That's really the barrier for me - I'm not making some feminist statement saying it, it's just why I haven't picked up the series. Playing as a grizzled old guy just... hell, playing as any guy these days just doesn't seem to be something I'm willing to put up with unless the game is spectacular (or a platformer where toon means nothing, because for some games you could be a lamppost and it'd be fine if all you're doing is bopping around smacking things and grabbing up health dots or whatever).

 

[BloatedGuppy]

The thing is though that those things you are comparing it too are based on history and are not fantasy. I don't know why guys are so defensive of this trope? Does it make you feel good or powerful to see women being downtrodden or something? There is a reason why games like Skyrim and Fallout are popular with female gamers. It's because we aren't portrayed as second class citizens.

No, again...I'm explaining to you that modeling medieval Europe is just something fantasy DOES. It's a well worn trope. I've acknowledged the fact that it gets a little tiresome and is perhaps indicative of lazy writing, so I'm really not certain why you think I'm defending it. But it is a common trope, and we are ALL of us guilty of allowing fantasy its common tropes. That's practically all the genre is, at this point...just a series of extremely timeworn story and world building elements that get assembled in slightly different ways. To cherry pick one out of context and suggest it's a fucking outrage seems a little bit disingenuous.

Fallout 2 allowed you to pimp your wife out to porn studio as a fluffer. I recall my character earning the nickname "honey tits". Fallout has never exactly been a bastion of maturity when it came to human sexuality, so it's odd you'd hold it up here. Skyrim has certainly not evaded charges of sexism either [http://www.destructoid.com/studying-sexism-with-skyrim-fus-ro-va-gina--219799.phtml]. But this is not a rabbit hole I'm particularly interested in going down. If you want to have a discussion about lazy writing in fantasy, we can do that, and we can talk about how Witcher falls into the same trap so many other games/books do when it comes to an adequate portrayal of how fantastic elements might impact the medieval society they are so endlessly keen on displaying. If you want to talk about how all these games are Crazy Sexist...well...I guess we can have that conversation too, but you know as well as I do how well that's going to go.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

I just don't know why you are defensive of it. That's what I don't understand.

It's like you are saying oh it's been done before so it's okay. Women are always portrayed as second class citizens in medieval fantasy so it's fine it shouldn't offend you.

As for fallout and skyrim, sure, they aren't perfect but at least the female character is a way to rectify things or have some recourse. In The Witcher you are expected to be complicit in it.

I'm not arguing that anything is 'crazy sexist' but it would be nice to not be reminded of sexism when we just want to chill out and play a game.

LOL this gameplay is fun 'but guess what women you are shit' yeah great fun.

 

[Bostur]

I think TW2 handles immaturity in a mature way. It has its giggle-worthy moments in a style that men and boys often appreciate. In that respect it reminds me of action and adventure movies and also has similarities with the Western genre.

It allows itself to be dirty and naughty at times but it also has substance.

I love immaturity done right and TW2 is a solid attempt. I'd say it's a game mostly meant for boys of all ages.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I just don't know why you are defensive of it. That's what I don't understand.

It's like you are saying oh it's been done before so it's okay. Women are always portrayed as second class citizens in medieval fantasy so it's fine it shouldn't offend you.

Sigh.

No, Butterfly, I am not saying that. Stupidly, I was attempting to tone down your needlessly confrontational "what is wrong with you people" stance in hopes of fending off the inevitable flame war that was likely to ensue, and instead have ended up with you shifting your attack to me specifically. My bad.

I would carry on attempting to refine my point in order to clear up this miscommunication, but you seem married to the misapprehension that I am somehow "being defensive", so it's probably best we just stop here.

As for fallout and skyrim, sure, they aren't perfect but at least the female character is a way to rectify things or have some recourse. In The Witcher you are expected to be complicit in it.

You're...really not. That's an inaccurate characterization of the games. You are no more "complicit" in sexism in The Witcher than you are in Fallout or Skyrim. The Witcher 1's major crime was specifically OBJECTIFICATION, and we've already discussed how distasteful that was (and yes, I'm aware that some people like to lump sexual objectification into sexism, but I am not one of them. We have a language with different words for different things, and I like to employ it as such. Sexism has a definition, it is not a catch-all category for every gender related misdeed.)

I'm not arguing that anything is 'crazy sexist' but it would be nice to not be reminded of sexism when we just want to chill out and play a game.

LOL this gameplay is fun 'but guess what women you are shit' yeah great fun.

I'm not certain why you would have taken that message from either game. Again, the female characters in The Witcher have an unusually high level of capability and agency for the genre. Witcher 1's transgression was not "Women are shit", it was "Lol titties". And no one is defending that, at least not in this thread. Even Smash didn't defend it. How could you defend it? It was ridiculous.

If you're going to warn me about breaking rules you may want to follow them yourself.

Insults are insults no matter how nicely you phrase them.

And screw you too, by the way.

OMG SMASH THAT WAS A JOKE SINCE WHEN ARE YOU THIS SENSITIVE?

I will change it if you're going to get rump-rustled about it. Good grief.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Why are gamers so against admitting anything is sexist. Will you all turn into pumpkins or something? If I was saying gamers themselves were sexist I'd be included in that too.

I guess that's a discussion for another day.

I think I'll continue to avoid the Witcher and stick to more gender neutral stuff since I really don't think CDProjekt want female gamers to play it. Shame they are losing money but whatever.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Why are gamers so against admitting anything is sexist. Will you all turn into pumpkins or something? If I was saying gamers themselves were sexist I'd be included in that too.

I guess that's a discussion for another day.

I think I'll continue to avoid the Witcher and stick to more gender neutral stuff since I really don't think CDProjekt want female gamers to play it. Shame they are losing money but whatever.

I don't think "gamers" are united in any opinion, least of all that one.

You can avoid the game if you wish, that is your prerogative. You are laboring under a massive confirmation bias, however, and I think it's unfortunate.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Why are gamers so against admitting anything is sexist. Will you all turn into pumpkins or something? If I was saying gamers themselves were sexist I'd be included in that too.

I guess that's a discussion for another day.

I think I'll continue to avoid the Witcher and stick to more gender neutral stuff since I really don't think CDProjekt want female gamers to play it. Shame they are losing money but whatever.

I don't think "gamers" are united in any opinion, least of all that one.

You can avoid the game if you wish, that is your prerogative. You are laboring under a massive confirmation bias, however, and I think it's unfortunate.

Maybe if they made some sort of gesture saying otherwise like making a playable female character that would be cool. But I don't think I can get over the attitude to women in the first game.

The fact that they made another one seems to say to me that they don't think they did anything wrong.

 

[Nokturos]

It's no more mature than a 6-year-old dressing up like an adult. I love the game, but despite its tries, it's still a silly fantasy story.

 

[spartandude]

Id say its very mature, sure it does get a bit immature with the sex at times (especially the cards in TW1) but i actually thought for most... well 50% of the sex was well handled if a bit (very) sexist and it could tone down on the swearing a little

however pretty much everything else is handled brilliantly the racism (which even has alot to say on terrorism) and polotics are only matched but Game Of Thrones

id say that while Dragon age (1) is a (for the most part) mature game aswell it doesnt beat TW2

 

[xorinite]

I've always found it amusing to consider that when I was a child and swore, I was told that children aren't allowed to swear, when I became an adult and swore, people told me that it was childish.

You get the same dualism when it comes to the terms mature and immature.

Is kirbys epic yarn immature?
I mean its not intended for mature audiences, nor is its considered to have mature content. Yet people will not call that immature, it seems to me people mean its socially inappropriate when they use these terms in both cases presented.

 

[A Weakgeek]

Why are gamers so against admitting anything is sexist. Will you all turn into pumpkins or something? If I was saying gamers themselves were sexist I'd be included in that too.

I guess that's a discussion for another day.

I think I'll continue to avoid the Witcher and stick to more gender neutral stuff since I really don't think CDProjekt want female gamers to play it. Shame they are losing money but whatever.

I don't think "gamers" are united in any opinion, least of all that one.

You can avoid the game if you wish, that is your prerogative. You are laboring under a massive confirmation bias, however, and I think it's unfortunate.

Maybe if they made some sort of gesture saying otherwise like making a playable female character that would be cool. But I don't think I can get over the attitude to women in the first game.

The fact that they made another one seems to say to me that they don't think they did anything wrong.

How exactly do you make a female protagonist for a game based on a story with 7 books as backstory for the character? Some deus ex machina shit like in Masseffect where your character gets rebuilt after each game? Thats like making a sequel to lord of the rings and having frodo be a woman.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Maybe if they made some sort of gesture saying otherwise like making a playable female character that would be cool. But I don't think I can get over the attitude to women in the first game.

I would have preferred a female protagonist myself, as that is usually my preference, but that really isn't an option in this circumstance, as the games are based off a popular series of novels with a male protagonist. You may as well castigate a Harry Potter game for not offering a female protagonist in place of Harry. It is what it is. If it makes you feel better, I had some misgivings about Geralt as well. He looks like a Polish Death Metal singer, and his voice acting ranges from cringe-worthy to atrocious throughout the first game and is barely adequate in the second. He definitely takes some getting used to.

The fact that they made another one seems to say to me that they don't think they did anything wrong.

And here's the rub. I've mentioned two or three times now that I think you're suffering from a confirmation bias, and you're just utterly hand waving it. I know I'm not the only one in this thread who has told you you're a little off the mark in your criticism of the 2nd game...which you have not played...and yet you continue to valued your unsupported opinion over theirs and make statements like this.

Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias or myside bias) is a tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs.

It's literally like the people saying "No it's not really like that" are going in one ear and out the other, because you keep parroting this party line about how the second game is just more of the first.

Why is that? I mean, I get that you utterly disrespect my opinion on the subject, we've established that, but why are you so completely unwilling to accept there is even a POSSIBILITY that Witcher 2 is not the paean to sexism you have convinced yourself it is? You could easily stop at "I was just too put off the first game to even take a flier on the second" without taking the extra steps of attacking CD Projekt, attacking people who enjoyed the second game, and attacking me for being stupid enough to ask you to stop attacking.

I was actually one of the most vocal detractors of the first game for it's puerile card trading game, amongst other problems (crappy game play being chief amongst them). I couldn't finish it, I got fed up. I've argued a pro-feminist stance on these forums for as long as I can remember, often getting the butt end from a lot of angry guys as a result. Yet, when I tell you the second game is worth playing and not particularly sexist, I'm immediately suspect and have to spend multiple posts tiredly refuting your insistence that I am "defending sexism".

It's fucking exhausting, seriously.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Actually I've never said that the second game is sexist...I have no idea where you got that from. I also never attacked people who played the second game. And funnily enough I DID say that I don't want to play the second because of the blatant sexism in the first. The cards alongside the fact that female characters changed their personality just so Geralt could have sexy time with them...)

And they could let us play as Triss couldn't they? The backstory seems to be used just an overarching excuse to exclude female gamers.

The only reason I thought you were defending it is that you say I'm wrong about the sexism in medieval settings being unnecessary. That seems like defending it to me.

Seems like you aren't listening to anything I'm saying.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Actually I've never said that the second game is sexist.

The fact that they made another one seems to say to me that they don't think they did anything wrong.

I think I'll continue to avoid the Witcher and stick to more gender neutral stuff since I really don't think CDProjekt want female gamers to play it.

LOL this gameplay is fun 'but guess what women you are shit' yeah great fun.

All charges issued in discussion directly related to the content of the 2nd game.

I also never attacked people who played the second game.

You've suggested, repeatedly, that anyone who doesn't share your outrage at the mimicry of Medieval European social mores in The Witcher 2 is defending a sexist trope. Specifically, "why do guys always defend this". You've also issued the "WHAT IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE" card, again aimed at anyone defending the series or that particular timeworn convention.

And you've spent most of this page dancing around an indirect accusation that I'm a champion of sexism, when I've ONLY supported the 2nd game.

And funnily enough I DID say that I don't want to play the second because of the blatant sexism in the first.

That's not "funny". I referenced that specifically because you did say it, and that's the point that I entered the conversation specifically SYMPATHIZING with your point of view, and trying to explain to you why the portrayal of women in the Witcher games was more lazy than sexist. Which lead to you more or less calling me a sexist.

And they could let us play as Triss couldn't they? The backstory seems to be used just an overarching excuse to exclude female gamers.

No, they really couldn't. Any more so than people would want a Buffy game where you played as Xander. Triss is great, but The Witcher books and IP were popular because of, you know...The Witcher. It would be ABUNDANTLY strange and deeply stupid of them to acquire an IP and then structure entire games around a supporting character.

The only reason I thought you were defending it is that you say I'm wrong about the sexism in medieval settings being unnecessary. That seems like defending it to me.

I didn't say that at all. I said it WAS LAZY AND UNFORTUNATE.

Seems like you aren't listening to anything I'm saying.

Well, perhaps we are both guilty of that, then. I apologize if I am misunderstanding you, or reading too much into what you are saying.

 

[Frostbite3789]

snip

I'm not 'trying' to see it. And to be honest if you think monsters and elves are perfectly acceptable but physically capable or otherwise dominant females will break your suspense of disbelief then I don't really know what to say to you.

Skyrim has this and it does no damage to the game whatsoever. I find it kind of disturbing that society being dismissive towards women is part of the male power fantasy.

Skyrim also was light on story, characterization and atmosphere. It was a giant playground filled with dungeons that were filled with draugr. I can't recall a single character's name in that game. Whereas I can recite the cast of many of the Witcher and Witcher 2's tertiary characters. And yet I played Skyrim far more than I played either of the Witcher games.

If a series isn't for you, that's fine. But to compare it to something that isn't even comparable on a basic level looks pretty foolish. (Edit: This was in response to comparing it to Lesure Suit Larry)