Huh, didn't know I had a butchered version of the game. Suppose I should go look up what I'm missing out on.wulf3n said:
Edit: Never mind, that's the only change. Phew.
Do you think The Witcher series is "mature?"
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Edit: Never mind, that's the only change. Phew.
@
You're WAY off saying EVERY female NPC looks or "acts" like a streetwalker... that's not reality, but everydody here seems to be comfortable in creating THEIR own image of the game, so I wont bother prooving AGAIN why that's not the case. If you actually PLAYED through the game, you actually know the truth.
There IS a Backlash for Geralt... If he delivers Abigail the witch to the mob, her spirit fights against him in the final fight, that takes place in the world of dreams...Gethsemani said:
You're WAY off saying EVERY female NPC looks or "acts" like a streetwalker... that's not reality, but everydody here seems to be comfortable in creating THEIR own image of the game, so I wont bother prooving AGAIN why that's not the case. If you actually PLAYED through the game, you actually know the truth.
"Mature" dialogue is believable dialogue, that's it for me. In TW, the dialogue often makes sense as spoken by human beings. In other games, like Mass Effect 3 for example, every second line of dialogue that comes out of Shepard mouth is a variant of "We shall overcome this, all together, and I am your leader". This is no dialogue, that's how politicians talk IRL. Or robots, I guess, would talk like that, if they were capable of speech.
Sure did, once in the regular version on release and then again in the enhanced edition, I'll admit that it was like 3 years since last time though. The problem is that while the male NPCs get fairly realistic clothing for a medieval world, the female NPCs do [http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Abigail] not [http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Adda_the_White] and, in fact, seem to be taken out of a LARPers sexual fantasies (more examples: here [http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Triss_Merigold], here [http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Lady_of_the_Lake_(NPC)], here [http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Vesna_Hood] and here [http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Shani]. This is without taking the obvious courtesans [http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Courtesans] and prostitutes [http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Prostitutes] as examples). The sheer amount of underbust corsets, bare legs under short skirts and shown skin in general are quite obviously meant to be fanservice. Especially when you compare to just how few of the male NPCs that show any skin below the neck at all (use the character page on that wiki and look it up, I am done hotlinking).Jack_in_the_green said:
As for the backlash I and BrotherRool were talking about, we are referring to the social backlash of having sex with someone who only does so when their life is at stake if they don't. Even more so if Geralt has sex with Abigail and then hands her over to the townsfolk anyway.
Look I don't think the Witcher is a bad game, but it was obviously created by developers who had absolutely no sense for tact and equality when it came to matters of gender and sex. It is a game that several times skirts the line (whatever it crosses it is subjective) of sexism. Whatever it is by accident or not is kind of beside the point.
If it ever bothers you there's a patch to reinsert the dialogue options that allow the sexy times as a reward... just look for 'The Witcher 2 UnAustralian patch'. I run that patch but I've never taken the sexytimes as a reward, I run it because fuck the Australian Classifications Board.Sexy Devil said:
I believe that the people that did not like The Witchers' language is because they expected it to have some form of PC in it. When there is no reason for a country to give a flying **** about most forms of PC than people are going to say what they want and to who.
So for an NPC who hates elves or has no love for them to try to keep themselves from saying something racist or sexist, especially when the most NPC's you run in to are poor peons, than to see a form of PC dialogue would be completely out of place. "Civilized" individuals tend to forget that there were times when the "N" word, **tch, **ore, and other seasoning words was the norm. So yeah, I expected such language topped with political intrigue in a game that is a dark fantasy.
So for an NPC who hates elves or has no love for them to try to keep themselves from saying something racist or sexist, especially when the most NPC's you run in to are poor peons, than to see a form of PC dialogue would be completely out of place. "Civilized" individuals tend to forget that there were times when the "N" word, **tch, **ore, and other seasoning words was the norm. So yeah, I expected such language topped with political intrigue in a game that is a dark fantasy.
What makes that portrayal better? She's still dressed scantily except now she's also boasting some gauzy harem style thing around her waist for... some reason? It obviously doesn't serve a practical purpose. She'd still be in danger of indecent exposure arrest in real life. Or do you like that portrayal because she's got some muscles by the look of it?Moonlight Butterfly said:-SNIP-
As you point out yes I do love comics. But it doesn't mean I love everything about them.
As for the witch comment and sexual wiles, I'm guessing you're talking about that witch woman in the first games opening chapter (Google reveals her name was Abigail, which I had forgotten) because surprise, I agree with you there. It was corny as hell the way the devs set it up to make her a 'romance' if that word even applies, and honestly it shouldn't have even been an option as it made no sense within either the context of the story or her established character up to that point. And there are a couple more scenario like that in the first game which left me scratching my head and saying to my monitor 'really? REALLY?'.
Still someone once said something along the lines of 'Yes, I do love The Witcher. But it doesn't mean I love everything about it.' although it might have been referring to something else, I forget. I do agree that the scenario was contrived and silly, but I don't see it being a symbol of misogyny or evil intent on the developers part either nor do I really see what makes the Witcher stand out as so terrible in a genre where I tend to scratch my head and talk to my monitor on a fairly regular basis.
Hell, I remember the first time playing Mass Effect there's a point where you can ask someone for a reward and they don't give you much, one of the dialogue options then is to basically say 'what, is that it', which naturally I went for because I'm a greedy bastard and BAM, surprise sex scene out of nowhere, I didn't even have the choice in the matter and I certainly wasn't looking for it. Also what the hell is with Morrigan's outfit in Dragon Age? There's another game that was full of head scratching and 'really?''s.
Why is that acceptable but the Witcher is not? Because of the cards in the first game? Because again, that's long gone in the second and even with, much like I quite like Mass Effect and Dragon Age: Origins despite many flaws, I still enjoyed The Witcher as a whole. Witcher 2 especially, which I honestly see as an improvement in near every way though it does still have its corny moments.
Because she looks fucking badass instead of a bikini model...(and yeah I'd prefer it if she wore more clothes but I think the artist was making a point that it's not about the clothes it's about how she's depicted.)The Madman said:
I think The Witcher just went over the top from cheesy into offensive for me. Maybe I'm unique in that I don't know but Mass Effect certainly didn't offend me/ make me uncomfortable in the same way. It's hard to define or put your finger on a feeling that way I guess.
Mixed bag really.
On one hand it's treatment of women is basically "ERMAHBERD BOOBIES!" and its use of language is mostly "ERMAHGERD CUSSWORDS!"
On the other hand it delves into politics, racism, nationalism, and motivation pretty well.
On the other hand it basically is just a Grim Dark version of Europe with Dwarves(Jews) and Elves (Gypsies).
So while yes it does some things well, it also is not that deep of a setting, and has a bland lead.
Not my kind of game, but it has decent points.
On one hand it's treatment of women is basically "ERMAHBERD BOOBIES!" and its use of language is mostly "ERMAHGERD CUSSWORDS!"
On the other hand it delves into politics, racism, nationalism, and motivation pretty well.
On the other hand it basically is just a Grim Dark version of Europe with Dwarves(Jews) and Elves (Gypsies).
So while yes it does some things well, it also is not that deep of a setting, and has a bland lead.
Not my kind of game, but it has decent points.
I realize you're tired of this thread, but I just wanna clarify a few things that I may not have gotten across properly.
When you cut out that last bit, it makes it sound like I'm saying that the women are ONLY sluts. When in fact, that's just not the case. To be honest, I can't think of a seriously evil woman from the The Witcher 1 off the top of my head (make of that what you will), but I can think of a male slut: Dandelion. I don't even particularly like the word "Slut," but it is what it is. The alternative "Person who sleeps with numerous other persons" is a bit of a mouthful.
Anyway, hopefully this will be my last reply to this thread as well. Apologies if I ever came across as a dick.
I guess it's just different interpretations here. "Personally, I think it's less The Witcher's obvious hatred of women and more the same misguided pretension to maturity that causes the characters to cuss with every other word." I took the "Less" to mean "Still very real, but not the main cause." That's generally what I mean when I say things... like that.. with those words... you know what I mean? Either way, I'm probably wrong. Forget it.Gethsemani said:
I feel you may've cut off my quote a little prematurely there. The next line of my post reads as such:Gethsemani said:
I'm very aware that women get called "Sluts" left & right. Men that sleep with numerous women are praised, but women are shamed. It's an awful double standard, and I know this. Which is really the whole reason I felt compelled to write this. I don't want people thinking I'm one of those assholes who thinks that way.BarbaricGoose said:
When you cut out that last bit, it makes it sound like I'm saying that the women are ONLY sluts. When in fact, that's just not the case. To be honest, I can't think of a seriously evil woman from the The Witcher 1 off the top of my head (make of that what you will), but I can think of a male slut: Dandelion. I don't even particularly like the word "Slut," but it is what it is. The alternative "Person who sleeps with numerous other persons" is a bit of a mouthful.
Well shit, I guess my interpretation was wrong. Dog balls.Gethsemani said:
Anyway, hopefully this will be my last reply to this thread as well. Apologies if I ever came across as a dick.
Not really what he said, and I have trouble finding anything in the writing even remotely up to snuff on that. I even went over some vids on Youtube just to refresh my memory.bastardofmelbourne said:
Even buying into what you said as possible, his argument comes down to "you can't be right because my subjective opinion of the quality of the writing is positive!"
I, for one, find bra and panties matches in pro wrestling to be empowering, so you cannot think that they are sexist!
Thankfully, that's a non-issue. So...Glad you brought up something nobody is denying, arguing against, or says can or cannot happen.Azahul said:
Also, since you are asking me to back up your claims, perhaps you should do so first. You know, since you were the one singing the praises, and I simply pointed out the logical fallacy by which you were operating, while you gave out vague platitudes on how the writing contained these characters with no specifics.
Well, if I went by the standards you have offered for yourself, I would have already fulfilled my burden in the way you have so...Mission accomplished or what?
You're asking me to provide evidence that there isn't misogynistic writing in the game? So, in essence, you want me to give examples of random events in the game in which migosogyny doesn't happen? This seems like a slightly odd request. Kinda like assuming guilt first, rather than innocence, and demanding that the defence provide examples of times when the defendant was not actively committing a crime.Zachary Amaranth said:
Still, I'll bite. First off, big spoiler warning (particularly for Iorveth's path).
If you follow the Iorveth path, you meet Saskia. Depending on your choices in the game, she can end up thrashing Henselt in battle, utterly humiliating him because in the world of the Witcher being beaten by a woman is a pretty big sign of weakness. Of course, this is aside from the fact that Saskia has already been established as a good warrior and a successful general, it really should not have been surprising that she was able to pull out a victory. Basically, if the world had not been as misogynistic as it was, then Henselt's defeat would not have been as humiliating as it was. In essence, his loss was made worse by his misogyny, and he was essentially punished for these views.
If the game were truly misogynistic, then this would have been followed up by Saskia being punished for daring to step outside the boundaries of accepted female behaviour. But no, this isn't what happens. While a spell is cast on her by Eilhart (another woman, it should be noted), nothing is done to actually punish her for her actions. Instead, as long as you make the right choices, Saskia goes on to proclaim herself Queen, be recognised by Radovid and Henselt as a legitimate ruler, and to establish her own kingdom in the Pontar Valley. These are hardly events a misogynistic game would allow. This shows a female character acting against what you would call acceptable female behaviour (within the game world), beating men at what is supposed to be their own game, and being rewarded for these activities.
Let's compare this then to one of the examples of misogyny within the game. Eilhart, one of the game's female antagonists, is not being punished in the third act because her actions were inappropriate for a woman, but because they constituted an attempt to seize power that destablised the north and would have been unacceptable for anyone to do. However, while in jail, she has her eyes put out by Radovid who still resents the way in which she used to effectively rule his father's court. Now, while it's not really clear whether Radovid resented her power because she was a woman, or whether he just hated the idea of anyone being considered more important than himself, it's not hard to make the argument that the act of putting out her eyes was fuelled by a hatred that a woman would see to put herself above Radovid. By comparing the two, it's pretty easy to see the difference. Saskia triumphs over misogyny, which just flat out would not happen to a woman in a truly misogynistic game with misogynistic writing. Eilhart is subjected to the misogyny of an individual, because that is how that individual behaves, not because that is her punishment for not acting in the customary role of a woman.
So, yes, the Witcher 2 has misogyny in it. However, if the game was actually written by misogynistic people, there is no way you'd have female characters able to get away with some of the behaviour they get away with. The fact that the world seeks to punish them for it makes it pretty clear that the world is misogynistic, but the fact that the world fails makes it equally clear that the writers are not.
There you have it. One example of the Witcher 2 not being misogynistic. One example out of two entire games where this kind of activity can be observed. Please, don't make me do an entire quest-by-quest breakdown to point out every example. There's a reason why we have the idea of innocent until proven guilty.
This sums up my feelings about the series rather well. I do feel it's important to point out, however, that while it's far from being the only series that objectifies women, the manner in which it does so (the sexcards) appalled me more than most. It literally turned women into collectible items.Vegosiux said:
Huh. See, I found it pretty bad, yeah, but not any worse than Dragon Age (the xbox version, dunno if this applies to the others) where you score achievements for sleeping with characters. Not for maxing out the relationship, but just for achieving sex (which doesn't require much effort with some of the characters). All equally bad, in my view.minarri said:
I don't think it's fair to say that. "Yes, it's bad, but others do it too!" As though that makes it excusable, or makes it OK to ignore that entire facet of the game and still call The Witcher (or other series) mature. It stinks of excuses.Azahul said:
Also, is it impossible to discuss this game series without someone bringing up Dragon Age? It's as though that's become the Godwin's Law of fantasy games.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I thought the sex cards were ridiculous and they made me pretty uncomfortable, and I don't think the fact that other games do something similar make it better. I'm just saying that games turning women into collectible items isn't really anything new, so I wasn't sure why it appalled you more than most.minarri said:
As for the reason Dragon Age keeps getting brought up, this topic exists because a Dragon Age fan called the Witcher series immature. That, I imagine, would be why it keeps getting brought up.
For what it's worth I felt The Witcher was as mature as fart gags (nothing wrong with fart gags btw, I personally like them but wouldn't call them mature).
It's rare to non-existant that I'd play a detailed RPG and just give it up half way through but I did with The Witcher.
I stopped playing as it was clear the theme wasn't 'Geralt saves the world' or 'Geralt saves the village and now everyone can get along despite their differences' etc, I more got the impression it was all about'collectibles for boning'.
Apologies for the rant, feel better now!
It's rare to non-existant that I'd play a detailed RPG and just give it up half way through but I did with The Witcher.
I stopped playing as it was clear the theme wasn't 'Geralt saves the world' or 'Geralt saves the village and now everyone can get along despite their differences' etc, I more got the impression it was all about'collectibles for boning'.
Apologies for the rant, feel better now!
I don't get this opinion.RingaFiar said:
I mean...did you even pay attention to the story? It was about Geralt finding the mutagens and finding out who was behind the attack at Kaer Morhen, and less so...getting his memory back. This, amongst fostering an extraordinary child, and the backdrop of a civil war between elves/dwarves and humans, with political intrigue, murder plots, and civil unrest. And the amazing twist at the end!!
If you play it like a "collectibles for boning" game, fair enough, but I didn't, I was intrigued by the story so sorry if you seemed to just look out for the sex stuff.
