Do you torrent? (pun most definitely intended)

[Zephirius]

I wouldn't mind a bit of product placement, as long as it doesn't get all up in my face. Passive ones like ingame billboards for real stuff seems acceptable as long as they're not in the middle of the road. Of course, they should be careful because for example some horror games would have the atmosphere completely destroyed by such things.

Anyway jim_doki, the incentive thing does not really apply to the bigger companies because there will be sheeple to buy it. Don't give me the bullshit 'if everyone thought that way' thing because that's not the case. I know they get money from the people who actually believe in GameSpot, for example.

I don't believe that I can't steal it if it ain't tangible. That is too vague. Plagiarism is a form of stealing, not always of something tangible. Having said that I do think there is a problem with your burger comparison. Not so much the tangibility but like Mariena pointed out the consumability. When you say stealing, I imagine that what I get is a legal version of a product in an illegal fashion. Unless you were to download a game and physically go to the store to tear a cd-key off a manual somewhere, it isn't stealing to my mind. Sure it's illegal, but it ain't stealing. More like it's a crime that has yet to receive a name. Copyright infringement is not right, because of the very words that make that up. Copy Right Infrigement. Infringing their (exclusive) right to copy. I'm not doing that. You could call me a customer of the copyright infringer, who is readily making copies available, I suppose.

The incentive to produce better games will be there if they make a profit on their games? Bull. You want an example? Take your pick. EA most easily comes to mind, with their sports serieses and the Sims, but there are others.

Just like to close with that I agree with Mariena that if companies develop a reputation for making good games, piracy becomes a bit of a non-issue. I've pirated games for years, but recently I've decided to buy Ascaron games that sound good regardless of whether I get to try it out, simply because of the joy their previous games have given me. I bought Sacred 2, and even though it doesn't work right on my system, after the next system upgrade, I know I won't regret it.

 

[perfectimo]

Copy Right Infrigement. Infringing their (exclusive) right to copy. I'm not doing that. You could call me a customer of the copyright infringer, who is readily making copies available, I suppose.

So, just to clarify things. Your not bad, you just willing take a copy of something that has already broken copyright laws, which by some logic means that the copy you have is not in violation of those same copyright laws?

 

[thedo12]

And when you take a game you are taking a physical copy too, a hard drive isn't imaginary.

So because one industry let's people test their product and another doesn't you must steal a copy and justify it by saying that "if they had demos blah blah blah", that's ridiculous.

no your not taking a pyshical copy, your making a duplicate made out of information at negliable cost.

your not stealing a copy, your creating a copy and then taking the copy you created.

its like saying making a mercades is stealing, becuase you would have bought a mercades if you didnt make one.

So you are certain that copying data isn't the same because it's information? That "information" you speak of is actually physical, not to the human eye though, and a hard drive or CD burner is making another physical version of this without permission, please understand stealing is taking something without the owner consent, and by doing so you are stealing in the same way that counterfeiting is stealing.

If someone started talking the same as you, dressing like you and acting exactly like you would you say that they are stealing your image? Or would you say, just so you can be right about piracy, that they are copying your image which is not stealing because they didn't take anything physical from you?

Making a copy of a Mercedes is stealing, do you actually know what stealing is in all it's senses?

I dont think you know the difernece between copying and stealing, stealing is taking something away from someone meaning they dont have it anymore .

copying is creating a duplicate, simple as that.

if I draw a picture of link is that stealing from nintendo?


should nintendo be able to sue me because im stealing their intelectual property by drawing link? what if I printed out a picture of fable concept art is that stealing from the artist who created it ?

 

[Zephirius]

So, just to clarify things. Your not bad, you just willing take a copy of something that has already broken copyright laws, which by some logic means that the copy you have is not in violation of those same copyright laws?

I've already stated I don't think it's right. I simply don't really care. Of course, I also don't think that the way most companies massively overprice their software is right. I am aware that games are expensive to produce, but some of these prices are just ridiculous, especially when compared to foreign countries. You can't deny that some companies are treating people as walking wallets, with some regions (Europe) having fatter walking wallets than others (the U.S.). If you ask me, it just seems like consumer and manufacturer (not all, but most) are constantly trying to scam eachother. And jim_doki, I read that you said something along the lines of "That's what being a consumer is". Well then, I feel free to say, "That's what being a software company is".

To put it the way you would: "I'm not as bad as the folks who crack the game.", I guess. Although I have uploaded ISO's not elsewhere available before, so I guess I am anyways.

 

[perfectimo]

I dont think you know the difernece between copying and stealing, stealing is taking something away from someone meaning they dont have it anymore .

copying is creating a duplicate, simple as that.

if I draw a picture of link is that stealing from nintendo?


should nintendo be able to sue me because im stealing their intelectual property by drawing link? what if I printed out a picture of fable concept art is that stealing from the artist who created it ?

Theft: The crime of taking someone else's property without consent.

Drawing a picture no, trying to publish it as your own yes. Not really the same as copying something exactly. If you were to print out some concept art from a website I think you'll find that there would be disclaimer saying that copying it is not allowed.

Yeah, I am certain now you don't know what stealing is. You didn't respond to my case scenario about someone taking your image, how come?

 

[Saitken]

I don't torrent any games beyond the SNES & GBA era of games.

 

[perfectimo]

So, just to clarify things. Your not bad, you just willing take a copy of something that has already broken copyright laws, which by some logic means that the copy you have is not in violation of those same copyright laws?

I've already stated I don't think it's right. I simply don't really care. Of course, I also don't think that the way most companies massively overprice their software is right. I am aware that games are expensive to produce, but some of these prices are just ridiculous, especially when compared to foreign countries. You can't deny that some companies are treating people as walking wallets, with some regions (Europe) having fatter walking wallets than others (the U.S.). If you ask me, it just seems like consumer and manufacturer (not all, but most) are constantly trying to scam eachother. And jim_doki, I read that you said something along the lines of "That's what being a consumer is". Well then, I feel free to say, "That's what being a software company is".

To put it the way you would: "I'm not as bad as the folks who crack the game.", I guess. Although I have uploaded ISO's not elsewhere available before, so I guess I am anyways.

Just because someone is charging a high price for something I want doesn't mean I should steal it. It's there product they can decide on what price they charge and at what locations they want those prices to be. There is something very important to remember and think about this for a little while, YOU DON"T HAVE TO PLAY GAMES.

So in your opinion being a software company requires you to have property stolen from you?

 

[Zephirius]

Theft: The crime of taking someone else's property without consent.

You have to keep in mind that the software industry is relatively new, and the whole stealing/theft is not that black-and-white and easily applied. Theft has been around for millenia, while software clearly has not. I suppose books are the easiest comparable medium that are also pretty old (music being recorded is obviously also new when compared to writing and theft). I haven't gone very in-depth with the whole subject but copying books is not illegal, at least for personal use, as far as I know. The software industry does not seem to think the same way about their product, what with the CD-keys and CD-checks and installation limits and who knows what else. And while you could very well steal a book just as you can steal a disc, not many people are liable to get sued or a cease-and-desist or whatever for copying a book (like anyone would though) for friends as they would copying a game for friends. Obviously copying a book and trying to publish it as your own is blatant theft, and also pretty stupid. The same goes for games. Copying a friend's copy or having it copied for you seems like a bit of gray area, until the advent of the copyright laws.

Just to give you a nice example of industry bullshit: I read a month or two back that a single mother of two who didn't even have a job was getting sued for 15.000 pounds in England for downloading a 3D pinball game or something. When they pull shit like this all I can think is "You deserve to be pirated." Sorry, but it's true. 3D pinball games are hard to compare to multi-million dollar games which I presume is what you are all going on about, but a lawsuit like this is just moronic. I also read that they were expecting this to set a precedent and draw more software companies into the courthouse. I guess that's fine, but they should at least try to be reasonable with their demands.

 

[Zephirius]

So in your opinion being a software company requires you to have property stolen from you?

In the same way jim_doki seems to think being a consumer requires you to accept getting shit for your money now and then, yes. Now and then may seem relatively unfair compared to the amount of people possibly pirating a game, but think about it when a few hundred get scammed every now and then, at differing intervals, or even a few thousand. Now take into account that there are 6 billion people on the planet. It's not about whether they play games, but about whether they should all accept being scammed because "That's what being a consumer is."

 

[perfectimo]

Theft: The crime of taking someone else's property without consent.

You have to keep in mind that the software industry is relatively new, and the whole stealing/theft is not that black-and-white and easily applied. Theft has been around for millenia, while software clearly has not. I suppose books are the easiest comparable medium that are also pretty old (music being recorded is obviously also new when compared to writing and theft). I haven't gone very in-depth with the whole subject but copying books is not illegal, at least for personal use, as far as I know. The software industry does not seem to think the same way about their product, what with the CD-keys and CD-checks and installation limits and who knows what else. And while you could very well steal a book just as you can steal a disc, not many people are liable to get sued or a cease-and-desist or whatever for copying a book (like anyone would though) for friends as they would copying a game for friends. Obviously copying a book and trying to publish it as your own is blatant theft, and also pretty stupid. The same goes for games. Copying a friend's copy or having it copied for you seems like a bit of gray area, until the advent of the copyright laws.

Just to give you a nice example of industry bullshit: I read a month or two back that a single mother of two who didn't even have a job was getting sued for 15.000 pounds in England for downloading a 3D pinball game or something. When they pull shit like this all I can think is "You deserve to be pirated." Sorry, but it's true. 3D pinball games are hard to compare to multi-million dollar games which I presume is what you are all going on about, but a lawsuit like this is just moronic. I also read that they were expecting this to set a precedent and draw more software companies into the courthouse. I guess that's fine, but they should at least try to be reasonable with their demands.

The whole theft issue is pretty clear about software, "Don't pirate it", that's a pretty clear law. Copying a book for personal use is illegal.

You think that a company deserves to be pirated the instant they wanted justice for someone stealing their property. It doesn't matter if a company is rich and the person taking the property isn't.

 

[perfectimo]

So in your opinion being a software company requires you to have property stolen from you?

In the same way jim_doki seems to think being a consumer requires you to accept getting shit for your money now and then, yes. Now and then may seem relatively unfair compared to the amount of people possibly pirating a game, but think about it when a few hundred get scammed every now and then, at differing intervals, or even a few thousand. Now take into account that there are 6 billion people on the planet. It's not about whether they play games, but about whether they should all accept being scammed because "That's what being a consumer is."

You're really starting to loose me with how you can come up with this. Being a consumer doesn't require you to accept crap it requires you to get what you purchased and that is all. Just because you don't think highly of a product doesn't mean it's right to steal it.

 

[Ubuntus]

I use torrent quite a lot. When im out of money (happens a lot) and theres a game i just have to have, I download them (Happend with spore, I was coing to get it anyway). But i also buy it when I get money. I check out game im unsure if I want (would most likley not bought them be cause of my sortage of money.).

Take for example The Galactic Civilization series, I was checking it out on Gamespot but it didn't look that cool. Then i decided to Torrent it too check if it was okey. Found out that it was one of the best games i tried and bought it and preorderd the next one. Same apply for space rangers, Wharhammer Dawn of war, democracy 2 etc.. But it can also turn me away from games I don't see fit like call of juarez, Star wars empire at war etc.

 

[Zephirius]

Just because you don't think highly of a product doesn't mean it's right to steal it.

For the fifth time, I don't think it's right. I'm just expressing my opinion. I'm beginning to wonder whether you actually read more than half of what I say. And yes, I may not think it's right, but I do it anyway.

Are you kidding me? How is suing a single unemployed mother of two for 15.000 pounds for a game that probably didn't even cost that much to produce justice? A large fine, few hundred pounds, possibly a thousand, I could accept that as justice, considering that the game itself is probably not very expensive to buy.

It "hurts" them because you *expect* me to put up with shitty products.

thats called being a consumer. sometimes you win, sometimes you dont. this is why you do research, like I mentioned several posts ago. the trick is to stop buying once they let you down

That's the post I was talking about. It seems fair enough to apply that to software companies as well, or do they get some sort of special privilege because they're oh so vulnerable?

Anyway, since clearly neither of us is going to concede, I'm off to do something more fun, because this is slowly starting to approach a "Nuh-uh" - "Yuh-huh" kind of conversation.

 

[WlknCntrdiction]

At this point in the conversation I would just say to the people "defending" torrenting to just leave the argument and continue doing what you're doing cause you're basically just screaming at a brick wall right now. I torrent btw, people will probably respond to this post but I don't care tbh.

*loads CS4 Master Collection into uTorrent*

 

[jim_doki]

I wouldn't mind a bit of product placement, as long as it doesn't get all up in my face. Passive ones like ingame billboards for real stuff seems acceptable as long as they're not in the middle of the road. Of course, they should be careful because for example some horror games would have the atmosphere completely destroyed by such things.

Anyway jim_doki, the incentive thing does not really apply to the bigger companies because there will be sheeple to buy it. Don't give me the bullshit 'if everyone thought that way' thing because that's not the case. I know they get money from the people who actually believe in GameSpot, for example.

SNIP

The incentive to produce better games will be there if they make a profit on their games? Bull. You want an example? Take your pick. EA most easily comes to mind, with their sports serieses and the Sims, but there are others.

One, when i say product placement, we'll eventually be bending to things like 30 second commercials, like on TV. Like i've said, all I care about is people getting paid for work. This is the first time someone in this thread has (sort of) suggested an alternative to paying for a game, and I take my hat off to you

See, what I mean by the second part is that there's a formula at work here. They'll look at the game that sells well and try to repeat what that game did. If you don't buy a game you like, how can you show the developers you a) want them to stay in business and b)you enjoyed their game?

A donation system perhaps? pay what you want for it?

I use torrent quite a lot. When im out of money (happens a lot) and theres a game i just have to have, I download them (Happend with spore, I was coing to get it anyway). But i also buy it when I get money. I check out game im unsure if I want (would most likley not bought them be cause of my sortage of money.).

Translation:
"I deserve this stuff because I can't afford it"

im sorry, this is a joke. you save up or you do without

 

[perfectimo]

At this point in the conversation I would just say to the people "defending" torrenting to just leave the argument and continue doing what you're doing cause you're basically just screaming at a brick wall right now. I torrent btw, people will probably respond to this post but I don't care tbh.

*loads CS4 Master Collection into uTorrent*

You took the words right out of my mouth except that you are on the torrenting side. It's not actually like screaming at a brick wall because a brick wall wouldn't accept a valid argument, I would accept a valid argument if one was put forward but their hasn't been one.

 

[Zephirius]

One, when i say product placement, we'll eventually be bending to things like 30 second commercials, like on TV. Like i've said, all I care about is people getting paid for work. This is the first time someone in this thread has (sort of) suggested an alternative to paying for a game, and I take my hat off to you.

I wouldn't mind watching a commercial while loading a game, for example. I think that could be a great idea to lower prices, so long as it isn't the exact same commercial every time. That would just drive people mad. Of course, commercials for other games or computer hardware would be best I suppose since that is more likely to interest those playing games.
Again, though, the degree to which this could work differs per genre.

 

[Avida]

I torrent, i know its morally wrong and i should get mildly singed in the upper levels of hell for it but i try to make amends - if i like what i torrent i buy it (if possible) and if not then its either useless or crap, and stealing from a crap artist or developer wont harm my consience too much.

 

[Hookman]

Yeah I use utorrent loads. To those people that say 'piracy is wrong!' if you are say downloading a album, the band youre ripping off are probably already incredibly rich! Oh noes Justin Timberlake wont be able to buy a new solid gold mercedes!

 

[reaper_2k9]

I used to but not so much any more.