DoA Dev Says Jiggle Physics Are Part of Japanese Culture

[Nurb]

I have a point, and you don't, so you resort to the usualy cry of perpetual victimhood.

And for the record, I find some of the tightly dressed men in the DoA series as attractive as some of the women characters... So what do you make of that?

Heh and you resort to telling me I'm 'crying victimhood' when I'm actually telling it like it is.

I noticed you completely ignored my post where I pointed out to you that women can be attractive without being heavily oversexualised. I guess the fact that you find the guys attractive proves that point.

Are you suggesting there's something wrong with finding both genders attractive?

Nope I'm saying you find them attractive even though they aren't oversexualised. Proving my point that it isn't necessary.

Not entirely sure where you got that from.

tight clothing, or being barely clothed at all isn't sexualized? I don't think your use of "oversexualization" is correct.

 

[Polite Sage]

The game doesn't say or try to convey that women should be treated differently.

The thing is it does.

Men = powerful heroes.

Women = sex objects according to these games. To me that's done deliberately to exclude women in favour of men.

It's demeaning and doesn't belong in modern society along with racism.

If I masturbate to straight porn right now, will that make me a sexist?
Or if I shoot a black man in GTA4, that will make me racist?

I wouldn't like to draw Twilight into this discussion again, but it's the same exact thing. It's a Mary Sue fantasy for teenage girls that portrays men as "flawless Prince the Braves that work out and do everything they can for their loved ones."
Males are usually less objectified sexually and more like "they can't hold back their urges", "boys are boys" etc. on a mental level that's not very good either. Or in Twilight's case as "perfect, emotional, hunks" which is totally unrealistic.

Are you saying we should start a crusade against "female channels" and "Twilight" since they don't portray men in equal fashion?

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

tight clothing, or being barely clothed at all isn't sexualized? I don't think your use of "oversexualization" is correct.

No it isn't it's how the character is portrayed and the male character are always portrayed heroically or in a way that reveals more about their character.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/4719-Gender-Games

Watch this it will explain further.

 

[neoontime]

You know, I can bold you saying "I don't think a lot of people see it that way" and say prove it but I'm not other people and that would be pointless. It's pointless because my argument was to simply defend others arguments. You see, the way theheroofaction said his argument was if it doesn't hurt you physically, you shouldn't argue with something like this. That point annoyed me a little so I went to argue him about. Yes, I understand people overlook the boobs and enjoy them but some see them as a flaw for realism or feminism. I honestly don't really care about this topic because that's what team ninja does, boobs. But some people care and if there is players of the game series who may see this as a thing we can get over, let them have a chance to argue it with Team ninja. Both have opinions and no one gets to just say, "You have no arguement, SHUT UP" Glad I cleared up myself.

You could, and I would point you to the over 1.3 Million copies they sold of their last game on the Xbox alone and tell the rest to "deal with it".
I wonder what amount of the people bitching about this would even be remotely interested in buying the game anyway, I kind of assume that a large part of them aren't even the target audience they are going for.

This entire thing annoys me to no end, because it's basically what FOX News and other right-wing/religious media did back in 2008 with Mass Effect (and several other games before that), and gamers all around fought against the accusations and stupidity:
Or this: http://nation.foxnews.com/culture/2011/02/28/parents-freaked-over-raunchy-wii-sex-video-game
Or this: http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2011/02/08/bulletstorm-worst-game-kids/ (Yes, Bulletstorm causes rape!)

And the comments etc. also looked entirely different: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.53656-EA-Responds-to-Mass-Effect-Report-on-Fox-News
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.263481-Fox-News-Says-Bulletstorm-Could-Make-You-a-Rapist (this one has almost 800)

But now because another group of different radical extremists (feminists) have taken up the issue of games appealing to certain audiences, all of gaming needs to rally behind them to ban all the evul nudity and sexism in teh games! Screw that.

And trying to judge and push gaming into a certain niche in regards to "realism" or "moral values" is frankly kind of stupid, because a lot of players are commiting a lot worse than stare at a pair of virtual breasts e.g. murder, mayhem, mass genocide, blowing stuff up, even killing minors, it's apparently okay to spike someone to death or shoot him in the balls/head with gruesome animations, but this is not?
It's got to have something to do with this Angloamerican prudishness and seems like the "in" thing to do right now for seemingly no particular reason...

Umm, first why would you post a fox news link, and second why are you still quoting me. Did you know posting such an extremist link in the eyes of comparing them to me is what Fox News journalist would do. Now you're me sound like such an extremist. Look, I have a stable opinion about this. I already spoke about this in my last post. Team Ninja makes games like this and that makes them most comfortable. That's good. People get to argue about something they feel is unnecessary, not having to be there. I just have to say. You don't get to be more right by lumping people that don't agree with you, with people long established to bad. Sorry but it's just bad arguing. It's hypocritical and a thing I hate to see on escapist. Just understand that at least

Also, the "post evidence to prove it" was meant as a jab at Mortesaid or what ever their name is. Bottom line, you got good points, but the other side has points to. Act Civil!. Also, sorry if I sound like I'm talking down to you. I may not of written clearly enough and my post may of sounded like bait.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

I wouldn't have a problem with it. I don't find that shit attractive anyway.

It's funny you talk about porn because I don't understand why men need this stuff in games, can't they just go look at porn instead.

 

[wulf3n]

The game doesn't say or try to convey that women should be treated differently.

The thing is it does.

Men = powerful heroes.

Women = sex objects according to these games. To me that's done deliberately to exclude women in favour of men.

It's demeaning and doesn't belong in modern society along with racism.

This isn't giving the average male much credit. It's as though you're saying as soon as sex is involved all rational thinking goes out the window, that we can no longer distinguish between reality and games, that our minds are now play dough in the hands of the developer.
... I like to think most of us are better than that.

 

[AwkwardTurtle]

*Mindlessly adds to the already huge thread*

Well, I don't really think this is such a big deal in a heavily stylized fighting game like Dead or Alive. I feel that not every game required to forced to meet some kind of realism. I mean looking at the male characters in DoA they appear to be wearing either skin-tight clothing (Ryu Hayabusa), Shirtless (Jahn Lee), or just silly looking (Zack). Also if it's like most fighting games there will probably be alternate clothing that allows a person to have as much or as little skin showing at any one time.

The game just feels heavily stylized to the point where I thought it would be obvious that none of it should be taken in a seriously. I mean it's a fighting game where you can kick a person high into the air and then "juggle" in the air them using a series of punches. That strikes me as a pretty stylized.

I mean if this was a game where the men were all in armor, and the fighting was heavily realistic, yet the women were still scantily clad, then yeah go get in an uproar about it. However, this is far from being the case.

Now I do agree that the justification that the Developer, Yosuke Hayashi, used is pretty weak. It's our culture, so deal with it. Just to take it to a drastic extreme of how ridiculous that reasoning is, Hitler could have basically used the same argument to justify his treatment of the Jewish people.

I'm just going to wrap things up here by saying that overall while I feel based on the past that Team Ninja doesn't have the greatest attitude towards the portrayal of women in video games, that Dead or Alive shouldn't be attack for having overtly sexual women in the game because that ridiculous stylized character design fits in with the ridiculous stylized world and game mechanics that the game is known for.

 

[Polite Sage]

It's funny you talk about porn because I don't understand why men need this stuff in games, can't they just go look at porn instead.

That's the same for all media. Video game industry just noticed it can sell porn too.

There are porn comics. There are porn movies. There are erotic novels. There are pornographic pictures. And now there are pornoghraphic games too.

It doesn't mean "men need porn to play games". I don't think anyone actually buys this game for it's "superior fighting mechanics" or "story", but solely for it's fan service. It's a "semi-porn" game. It's masturbation material like all the other porn, but with gameplay thrown in as "extra".

I would be more worried about portrayal of women in actual "non-sex" games. Like the Lara Croft rape victim trailer fiasco. Or Agent 47 fighting scandidly clad nuns. Jesus Christ, that's both sexist AND thematically incorrect for the series.

 

[Therumancer]

My basic thought on the subject is that Team Ninja has it right. Truthfully though I would have gone on more of an attack, rather than defending it as Japanese, I would have just flat out said that the issues are a bunch of small minded liberals trying to make an issue where there isn't one for the sake of attention.... which is pretty much the case. The vast majority of people on both sides of the gender coin have no issue with this.

Now yes, I know people are going to jump on this since I'm blaming liberals and everything else, and honestly I'm not going to bother to get into circular arguements. The thing is that the basic liberal attitude tends to imply that women want to see normal, or ugly, women doing things, or oppose sexualization simply because it appeals to men. In reality women tend to want to see themselves portrayed attractively, and this comes through in the artwork and literary creations of women, as well as what they demand from the characters they play or control. A recent example would be how with "The Secret World" you couldn't get moviestar quality looks for the female character models, a complaint brought largely by the female gamers who had very specific ideas of what they wanted to create, but could not do so. This leading into discussions of how annoyed some girls were that you couldn't say tuck your skinny jeans into your cowboy boots and instead had to wear them over the top like a retard, and other assorted things. In the end everyone was vocal about the character generation (at least in beta) which is one of the reasons why they rushed out the adjustments we're going to be seeing come the 28th, because the majority of the game community wanted characters that represented something close to a physical ideal... it's part of the escapist fantasy.

A lot of the criticisms come from liberals wanting to have some battle to fight, without any REAL issues to justify their attitudes, they need to create them. The idea here being that women need to be protected from artistic exploitation by the evil male majority, reinforced by pop psychology garbage about esteem issues that could have been written by erotic advice columnists from a magazine like Cosmopolitan. In reality women don't need to be protected, and if they did, this wouldn't be one of the places where they would be asking for help, given that they create and demand this kind of stuff themselves.

The funny part of this article is the bit about "Japanese Culture" which is admittedly a dodge, intended to maintain the status quo of the game series, without actually addressing the central issues.

Complaining about women matching a fantasy ideal of feminimity is like me complaining about the male version of the same thing. I mean I can't possibly build up my arms like Marcus Fenix without abusing some serious 'roids (and accept it or not, beefcake is popular with women so it's also a form of sex appeal, granted not all women find that attractive, but a big enough majority where if your pumped your not going to have much of a problem finding a GF, if some dude walked around with Arms like an action hero at the beach, he'd have no trouble landing girls). People DO complain about the hugely muscled look of male characters I suppose, but it doesn't get as much attention, and it's just as silly. People need to grow up and accept a fantasy ideal as part of fantasy. Anyone who messes themselves up over works of fantasy obviously has issues to begin with that probably would have been triggered by something else. If you can't find something to fight against without grasping at garbage like this as an issue, you should relax, and enjoy the peace until a real issue arrives.

 

[SomeBrianDude]

If I ever meet Yosuke Hayashi, I might headbutt him, then when he gets annoyed just explain how that's part of Glaswegian culture. I don't like DOA, he's partly responsible for DOA, and that's simply how we show our displeasure with something here. He'll obviously see my point and apologise.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

*snip*

If you hold 'anti-pornography' views Moonlight Butterfly, just come out and say it plainly.

Using people's justifiable distaste of pedophilia as a stepping stone to attack the 'objectification' of fictional depictions of young women with unrealistic proportions playing beach sports comes across as more than just a little wrong minded and a bit of a stretch at best. It also demonstrates far more about the absolutely tragic way in which you view gender relations, your view of male heterosexuality and just how your view on 'objectification' has been informed.

What it does not do is inform the discussion at hand in any meaningful way.

I see your source, and raise you this [http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1999-effects-of-pornography.html]. An exhaustive collection of epidemiological evidence collected over a 38 year period, from multiple authors, from across the world that demonstrates that pornography is not the boogie-man you make it out to be.

The conclusion I will cite below..

The concern that countries allowing pornography and liberal anti-obscenity laws would show increased sex crime rates due to modeling or that children or adolescents in particular would be negatively vulnerable to and receptive to such models or that society would be otherwise adversely effected is not supported by evidence. It is certainly clear from the data reviewed, and the new data and analysis presented, that a massive increase in available pornography in Japan, the United States and elsewhere has been correlated with a dramatic decrease in sexual crimes and most so among youngsters as perpetrators or victims. Even in this area of concern no "clear and present danger" exists for the suppression of SEM. There is no evidence that pornography is intended or likely to produce "imminent lawless action" (see Brandenberg v. Ohio, 1969). It is reasonable that the U.S. Supreme Court has consistently rejected the principal that speech or expression can be punished because it offends some people's sensibilities or beliefs. Compared with "hate speech" or "commercial speech" there seems even less justification for banning "sex speech."

Sex abuse of any kind is deplorable and should be eliminated. Rape and sex crimes, like any criminal activities are blights on society which should be expunged. The question remains "How best to do this?" Most assuredly, focusing energy in the wrong direction, or taking actions just to placate victims, politicians or irate citizens will not solve the problem nor help. Nor will spreading myths or misinformation. Removing pornography from our midst will, according to the evidence, only hurt rather than help society.

I think it is better to expend our energies in two directions. 1) Make better pornography so that preferred role models are portrayed and more segments of society can come to appreciate or at least understand and tolerate its value23; and 2) turn our research to other directions to eliminate or reduce the social ills of rape and other sex crimes. The best place to look is probably in the home during the first decade of life. But it is only by research that we can continue to understand how to most effectively meet this social challenge. Governments as well as the pornography industry itself would do well to finance and encourage such research.

 

[Dumoras]

team ninja. pissing on the boots of forward thinking females everywhere.

 

[rbstewart7263]

The game doesn't say or try to convey that women should be treated differently.

The thing is it does.

Men = powerful heroes.

Women = sex objects according to these games. To me that's done deliberately to exclude women in favour of men.

It's demeaning and doesn't belong in modern society along with racism.

Ive already explained that both men and women are sexualized equally in this game and youve ignored me and my point more than once not just on this thread but on others and that is disrespectful to me.

And then you roll back into how hard it is for you. I dont think your the victim of an outside world that wants to take advantage hun I think your the victim of your own worldview.ie: the victim of yourself.

 

[Polite Sage]

My basic thought on the subject is that Team Ninja has it right. Truthfully though I would have gone on more of an attack, rather than defending it as Japanese, I would have just flat out said that the issues are a bunch of small minded liberals trying to make an issue where there isn't one for the sake of attention....

Pretty much this. It was probably a really poorly thought cop out to prevent the "company image" from getting dirtier on the expense of dissing his own culture and making himself look very, very stupid.

If he had said something along "It's part of moe / gravure otaku culture" I would have to agree with him completely.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Okay think what you want but the men aren't sexualised. They are portrayed completely differently.

 

[rbstewart7263]

It's funny you talk about porn because I don't understand why men need this stuff in games, can't they just go look at porn instead.

That's the same for all media. Video game industry just noticed it can sell porn too.

There are porn comics. There are porn movies. There are erotic novels. There are pornographic pictures. And now there are pornoghraphic games too.

It doesn't mean "men need porn to play games". I don't think anyone actually buys this game for it's "superior fighting mechanics" or "story", but solely for it's fan service. It's a "semi-porn" game. It's masturbation material like all the other porn, but with gameplay thrown in as "extra".

I would be more worried about portrayal of women in actual "non-sex" games. Like the Lara Croft rape victim trailer fiasco. Or Agent 47 fighting scandidly clad nuns. Jesus Christ, that's both sexist AND thematically incorrect for the series.

The fighting system while not the "deepest" is surprisingly more fluid and workable as a game goes. Its tournament worthy actually.

And is actually the main reason I played the game. Eye candy is a minor distraction for me.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

I'm not anti pornography I only brought it up because you said there is no link between objectification and sexual assault, which there is.

My problem is that objectification is brought into a medium where it's not necessary. Women don't need to be objectified and over-sexualised to be attractive.

The fighting system while not the "deepest" is surprisingly more fluid and workable as a game goes. Its tournament worthy actually.

And is actually the main reason I played the game. Eye candy is a minor distraction for me.

Do you see then how it would be nice for me to experience that gameplay without having to suffer the eye rolling amount of pandering in the game.

 

[Tony2077]

ah damn all out of popcorn and this is still going

 

[RaikuFA]

My initial reaction: That'll go over reeeeeal well with the gaming community
Upon further analysis, maybe it will. This isn't the first time the fighting game community has been unapologetic, if not proud to be anywhere from insensitive to discriminatory to female gamers.
Escapist, I wanna know your thoughts; Is this really a defining trait of the fighting-game community, or Japanese culture for that matter, or are these guys just making excuses?

I know the FGC is just as discriminatory towards newcomers just as bad as women. And they LOVE making rape jokes, and if you're offended, well, you're not allowed to play with them.