Doctor Who Series 6.13: "The Wedding of River Song' [SPOILERS] + Series wrap up

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ReservoirAngel

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joemegson94 said:
Vault Citizen said:
MrJKapowey said:
Vault Citizen said:
DalekJaas said:
it is time they took out of the hands of the Brits and gave it to some Americans who understand how sci-fi should work.
Speaking as a Brit about what has become a part of our national heritage the Americans can have this show when they can prize it from our cold, dead hands. There is no way we would ever let it go.

*Sits infront of the rights to Doctor Who in a rocking chair, holding a shotgun and muttering under my breath about Americans*
We're British, you should be sitting in an armchair, in a drawing room, with a cup of tea in one hand and one of the following in the other - Sten Gun, Webley revolver or Sonic Cane...
I know but as I assumed my audience was American I wanted to deliver the message in an easy to understand point. I am happy to go with your suggestion (as it is better) but I absolutely insist I wear a posh, red bath robe.
Here is absolute proof that Americans should not write Doctor Who:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rA9eaLhxURs
I'm afraid I don't quite see your point with this...

Nostalgia Ripoff said:
But... Wuh... Huh?! It was a robot, but... He was regenerating. How does a robot fake regenerating?
In outward appearance all regeneration looks like is just yellow light exploding from the person. I'm assuming "making light come out of is" is well within the capabilities of a robot who can perfectly imitate a person's appearance and mannerisms.
 

PeterDawson

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It was a pretty solid finale. I gotta say its been fun the past two seasons showing time slowly unraveling in the finales, both ways were pretty interesting. I know a couple of people who pointed out how it kind of rubs Waters of Mars the wrong way since that also featured a fixed point in time but I pointed out that events just changed slightly, the end event still happened. Plus the finale had a paradox of sorts since they saw set events change.

I am a bit annoyed that we don't know how the TARDIS was taken over back in Series 5, though we can assume The Silence did it to try and make sure the Doctor died. If this is the case though I do like how they've tried to kill him twice and both times have pretty much destroyed time itself if not FOR the Doctor. I do think Series 6 wrapped up more of the questions it posed than Series 5 did, but we've still got the TARDIS question of series 5 and a great deal of questions about the Silence since to pull off what they've done they do need time travel and we've never seen how they do it.
 

idodo35

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so... there will be a 7th season... right?
aniway great episode! and finally something more then "just for fun" been waiting for it till midseason!
 

Sonic Doctor

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The_root_of_all_evil said:
Sonic Doctor said:
I'm seriously thinking about writing some fan fiction...
I don't think there's a better compliment to a writer than that.

And I'd read it.
It's not a compliment. How is it that when I say that what Moffat has been writing is drivel and I could do better a compliment to him. It means he's doing a bad job, not a good one. It would be a fan fiction of Doctor Who the show itself, not fan fiction of Doctor Who as butchered by Moffat.
 

scw55

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The finale was more a character development episode than a GRAND BATTLE. In honesty, having an epic ZOMGOCALYPSE every finale (every 13 episodes) is quite concentrated. Basically they have to out-do themselves each time. I'll give you an example;

New Doctor Who
1- Daleks attacking future Earth
2- Cybermen and Daleks waging war in modern day earth
3- The Master Enslaved Earth to conqure the universe.
4- Davros attempts the destroy reality
5- The Timelords attempts to eradicate time to become ethereal immortals.

You can see the curve of "increase dramatisation" suddenly lurches forwards.

if you take 6 - Time collapsing on itself, Moffat could only out do it and make it almost rediculous.

Having these not-so-end of days finales is good. It stops the show getting too stupid.

I'm not disappointed by the episode. However, the bit where the blue man says DOCTOR WHO DOCTOR WHO I found /facepalming. It felt like stating the obvious. I would have prefered that he never asks the question.

In confidential it's implied heavily that it wasn't a real wedding as he doesn't tell River his name and he's a robot. Though why would he stage it?
 

joemegson94

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The more I think about this, the less sense it makes.

Why didn't Kovarian just send some of the hundreds and hundreds of soldiers she has at her disposal to go back and shoot the Doctor in the face, rather than spend decades brainwashing River?
Why did they take Melody back to the 60s to find a spacesuit? Surely they have them in 2153?
Why did they even need River, if the suit controls itself?
Why didn't they take River from the 60s to 2011, rather than leaving her for ages?
Why did they wait for Mels to get to know Amy and Rory for over a decade so she could eventually meet the Doctor, when they could have taken her to any time period?
If they planned to put her in the lake in the spacesuit anyway, why did they let River try and poison The Doctor?
Why did they need a Time Lord if they're just going to put her in the suit? They could have just used the Ganger Amy or someone.
Seriously, why not just shoot The Doctor in the face?



Kovarian went through this convoluted bullshit plan when there were much simpler ways of killing The Doctor?
 
Feb 13, 2008
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Sonic Doctor said:
How is it that when I say that what Moffat has been writing is drivel and I could do better a compliment to him. It means he's doing a bad job, not a good one. It would be a fan fiction of Doctor Who the show itself, not fan fiction of Doctor Who as butchered by Moffat.
But Moffat has driven you to write something, if only to show him up. I'd take that as a compliment.

And I'll prod you to write some fan-fiction some time ;)
 

Arjen Ab

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scw55 said:
snip over lat finale's

I'm not disappointed by the episode. However, the bit where the blue man says DOCTOR WHO DOCTOR WHO I found /facepalming. It felt like stating the obvious. I would have prefered that he never asks the question.

In confidential it's implied heavily that it wasn't a real wedding as he doesn't tell River his name and he's a robot. Though why would he stage it?
I agree that the end is better for not being a bigger step of all time/reality ending in a bigger way.

The second part why the question is doctor who is actuallly something I found masterfully done if set up correct.

River asked the whole universe and all of time would you help save the doctor? The doctor helped a lot of them but not all. However it was asked to all of time so it was the first question asked to history. The first beings the ones who ask the first question by responding doctor who?

So by trying to save the doctor River song screwed up and made everyone ask the first question.

The only thing I wonder is how will knowing a timelords name be bad. I will let the show suprise me but I am hopefull it will be good.
As for the wedding being fake. Yes I saw that too. Too many people would have heard his name since he wasn't alone in that robot. I do think he will get married to her in a latter time though.
 

Sonic Doctor

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ReservoirAngel said:
DalekJaas said:
I think it is time they took out of the hands of the Brits and gave it to some Americans who understand how sci-fi should work.
No. The Americans tried it once before and it didn't catch on. Look up the 1996 Doctor Who TV movie. It was decent, but it was too American and it failed. I mean, they were just clueless. They made the Doctor half-human and threw in a fucking car chase!

They had their chance at reviving the show and they fucked up. Then us Brits successfully brought it back and it's going well thus far. Just because you don't like the direction it's going in doesn't mean the Americans know any better. Hell, most Americans didn't even know about it until it became popular recently.

Besides, they'd just make it like Lost. And that was a fucking train wreck of confused, pseudo-cryptic randomness.
If the TV Movie was so bad, why did the BBC adopt McGann as the 8th Doctor and use him in the audiobooks and such. Doing so made the movie at least partially canon.

The BBC didn't have to do that. Look at the Cushing movies, for obvious reasons they weren't accepted as canon. The 1996 American written movie had part of that reason, but the BBC still made McGann part of the canon, so the Americans must have done something right.

If any writing here is a crime to Doctor Who, it is Moffat's. As an American and a writer, if I had the chance to erase what Moffat has done, I would and I would keep the show in the area of what the old series and new series(Davies) were like.

I would keep Smith, because he is great at the part, though if I kept Amy and Rory, they would be written as proper companions that actually listen to The Doctor and tend to actually be surprised by what's going on instead of acting like it is business as usual. Amy wouldn't be some kind savant like Moffat has written her to be(being able to solve pretty much everything without The Doctor's help). I would also remove the absurd idea that two humans making a baby in the TARDIS makes a Time Lord baby. River Song would be someone from the Doctor's past that he met again in the future, the going backwards in time thing would still happen for her, because I actually liked that explanation from "Silence in the Library". I would rewrite the series 5 finale, The Doctor would find a way to fix the TARDIS and keep it from exploding, so none of that wished back into existence by Amy bull crap.

Moffat's writing is sloppy, instead of writing beginning and then and end first, it is like he just starts with an idea and writes it till the ending, which is a very very hard and risky thing to do as a writer. Very few writers can pull it off. Moffat obviously can't; it seems like he writes himself into a corner and then has to create some bull crap resolution that has no logic because anything logical isn't plausible to work, or as he has done, he ignores logic and goes for the messed up explanations.
 

Thomas Parker

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DalekJaas said:
Soeroah said:
DalekJaas said:
I think it is time they took out of the hands of the Brits and gave it to some Americans who understand how sci-fi should work.

LOL



Goddamn, you have tickets on yourself, huh? Fact is, it's a British show that's enjoyed by a majority of people who watch it. It...the idea of giving it to the Americans to "make it enjoyable for normal people" is so mind-boggingly stupid, considering the new series seems more Americanised than the original series. Plus, saying Americans are normal? Either everyone on the planet is normal, or there are no normal people. You can't say one race is any more normal than the other, there's no benchmark.

So many times the Americans have attempted to remake classic British sitcoms and such, sometimes managing to stagger past a failed pilot episode, and then they wind up with something like The Office. Many people in America probably enjoy it, and that's entirely their call. I won't complain that the American version of The Office is terrible compared to the original version, if Americans don't act like they know better than everyone else.


Please, please tell me you were just trolling. I'll admit you got me.
Nope not trolling, and I was basing my opinion on Supernatural, which has been getting better and better as Doctor Who gets worse and worse, by Americans I (kind-of) meant the supernatural writing team.

American does have a good history with sci-fi though, look at all of the movies and TV shows. The Doctor Who movie before the revived series was co-produced with America and it was decent (better than anything from the last 2 seasons). So I stand by statement. The Office isn't sci-fi, and America's attempt at Red Dwarf failed because that is comedy. When you get down to action and story American shows generally provide.

I dislike American egotism as much as the rest of the world, but I honestly think American writers would do a better job then what the current writers are doing, especially if they were fans of the show.

I am not American by the way.
*cough* torchwood *cough*
 

TimeLord

For the Emperor!
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MrJKapowey said:
TimeLord said:
MrJKapowey said:
Sooo, I've never watched Dr Who before (Okay, I watched the one with the Autons in the department store and Rose, but I did't enjoy it and was pretty much reading through half of it...) and was going to watch Dr Who last night (mainly because it had Winston Churchill looking awesome with a pistol and numerous people with machineguns...) but didn't bother, mainly because I was on a roll on Battlefield 3, but also because I couldn't find the remote...

Would people here, A recommend me to watch that episode? And B recommend me a Matt Smith episode to start watching from.
The best reboot episode is series 3's 'Blink'. You don't need any Who-knowledge to watch it and it's a fantastic episode. Matt Smith has only been around for 2 series (current series 5 and 6) and his first episode is 'The Eleventh Hour'.
Okay, but would you recommend I watch the Wedding of River Song?
That entirely depends on whether you plan on watching the rest of series 6. If you are in the near future, I'd say no as some of the important plot points and jokes you won't recognise without seeing the rest of Smith's Who-stuff.
 

BehattedWanderer

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It was good. But..."Doctor Who"? Really? That's the Oldest question? Of all the great spanning questions, his name is the most important, and oldest, in the universe? I mean yeah, the wikis say they go back to the beginning (haven't seen those), but really? Felt kinda like cheating.

That, and I was really hoping that the collected will of the universe was enough to get the TARDIS tearing through the alternate moment of omni-history, that altering a fixed point and keeping it altered despite the consequences would cause it to explode, like it still apparently has to, instead of continuing to leave that massive plot point hanging after two seasons. Maybe it's just me, but the TARDIS exploding across all of time and space really feels like it should be a bigger concern than it is...

But hey, at least they're all alive for more shenannigans, that whole 'the Doctor Dies' plotline was solved in a fairly satisfactory in slightly expected way, the Doctor is free to take his wife out at nights to go on romps through the universe (talk about a honeymoon...), and she still has to learn his name at some point, and there's apparently a large battle coming up in the next season, after this incredibly middle-child-esque season to make things exciting. Yay.
 

psijac

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When I heard that River made a distress beacon that could go outside the universe I thought it meant that the true doctor was trapped beyond the universe because he was on the other side of the crack in the wall when it was sealed from previous season. I figured the current doctor was a figment of Amy's imagination made real by a universe in the infancy of its rebirth

On time locked events:
Events don't particularly matter it the consequences they spawned that matter. If river didn't kill (or at least appear to kill) the doctor she would have never gone to jail. Also the timelock was defied previous in Pompeii when the Doctor saved a small family from being turned to ash

In short this episode kinda sucked
 

Belzera

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Its not Human + Human in TARDIS in transit = Timelord, its Time Traveller + Time Traveller in TARDIS in transit = Time Traveller Child who was taken right after birth by a religious sect with access to time travel technology and many years on which to perfect into something like a Timelord.

My understanding is that time travellers are marked / altered simply by travelling through the vortex of time [S1:Dalek] and it is also explained that Time Lords became time lords thanks in part to the exposure of Gallifreyans to the time vortex as well as Science. The fact that River was conceived while the TARDIS was travelling is what made River ideal for the Silence's plan, here was a life that warped by the time vortex as she was concieved and the Mother was alone and vulnerable for several months allowing them to kidnap her so that they could claim the child for their own goals from birth and mold her into what they needed. As for why they needed her, no real idea I can guess many reasons but they don't seem to fit completely

EG.
* They needed an assassin that could lay in wait for centuries. (They have access to time travel tech, they could simply drop her off to wherever they needed)
* They needed a time lord to kill a time lord. (The doctor has been killed by other things than a timelord)
* They needed someone who could get close to the doctor to kill him. (Why not use a Companion)
* They just wanted to make his death as cruel as possible (Just getting killed by River doesn't seem like its real cruelty.)

Anyway, I enjoyed the episode alot and I didn't see the reveal of how he survives coming, should of but didn't, And yes, Moffats' seasons have really been a variety of hit and miss episodes but when they have hit the mark they've hit it well, at least in my opinion but really, I want Moffat to consider answering more questions.

Finally, that voice we heard when the Tardis exploded in the previous season finale sounded alot like Davros to me.
 

ReservoirAngel

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Sonic Doctor said:
If the TV Movie was so bad, why did the BBC adopt McGann as the 8th Doctor and use him in the audiobooks and such. Doing so made the movie at least partially canon.
I never said it was bad. I actually enjoyed it. But it just wasn't Doctor Who. I mean it was, but it was too Americanised. It lost that very British flavour and sensibilities, and just became any other American sci-fi TV movie. Seriously, take that movie by itself, change the names "Doctor, TARDIS, and Master" and you essentially have a pretty generic TV movie there.

The BBC didn't have to do that. Look at the Cushing movies, for obvious reasons they weren't accepted as canon.
You know why they weren't made canon? Because they were movie remakes of episodes that had already happened. Specifically "The Daleks" and "The Dalek Invasion of Earth". So making them canon would make no sense, you'd have a new Doctor reliving the exact same events.

The 1996 American written movie had part of that reason, but the BBC still made McGann part of the canon, so the Americans must have done something right.
They did do something right: casting Paul McGann. For all the shit I can throw at that film, Paul McGann is a fucking diamond! I love the guy and truly wish he'd had a proper TV series to really shine.

Also the steampunk TARDIS interior was fucking bad-ass.

If any writing here is a crime to Doctor Who, it is Moffat's. As an American and a writer, if I had the chance to erase what Moffat has done, I would and I would keep the show in the area of what the old series and new series(Davies) were like.
I need to make one thing clear here: Moffat is a good writer. I just think his one flaw is getting too caught up with his high-concept ideas and bending the world and character's actions just to allow those ideas to happen. But he does do good work. He's definitely a better writer than Davies was.

Don't get me wrong, I love Davies writing, but he has just as big a "pulling stuff out of his arse" problem as Moffat does.

I would keep Smith, because he is great at the part, though if I kept Amy and Rory, they would be written as proper companions that actually listen to The Doctor and tend to actually be surprised by what's going on instead of acting like it is business as usual. Amy wouldn't be some kind savant like Moffat has written her to be(being able to solve pretty much everything without The Doctor's help). I would also remove the absurd idea that two humans making a baby in the TARDIS makes a Time Lord baby. River Song would be someone from the Doctor's past that he met again in the future, the going backwards in time thing would still happen for her, because I actually liked that explanation from "Silence in the Library". I would rewrite the series 5 finale, The Doctor would find a way to fix the TARDIS and keep it from exploding, so none of that wished back into existence by Amy bull crap.
You know what, I can't really argue with any of this. I like where it's gone but you are right, it could be much better. I will concede these points to you sir, with one extension:

The show needs to put less emphasis on the companions. It seems like every series of the new run, it's always pulled a "the companion can god-mod and do shit they shouldn't be able to do all of a sudden" out of nowhere in the finale. Often with flimsy justification. I mean come on, look at Series 3. Using only the words "Use the countdown", Martha spends a year avoiding detection and death, telling people the Doctor's history and shit, and is able to get herself on board the Valiant at just the right time, despite her not knowing when the countdown was going to happen?

I call Davies' bullshit on that one, particularly. The others haven't been as bad.

Moffat's writing is sloppy, instead of writing beginning and then and end first, it is like he just starts with an idea and writes it till the ending, which is a very very hard and risky thing to do as a writer.
Believe me, I know. I'm kind of an aspiring writer (though one with an irritating swirling vortex of potential ideas and no focus).

Very few writers can pull it off. Moffat obviously can't; it seems like he writes himself into a corner and then has to create some bull crap resolution that has no logic because anything logical isn't plausible to work, or as he has done, he ignores logic and goes for the messed up explanations.
I think Moffat is right in his wheel-house when he's writing smaller stories. "Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead" was excellent; one of the best stories in Series 4. Same with his Series 5 Weeping Angels story.

He can write, he just needs to focus on the smaller-scale. When he tries to go too big, he just loses control of his thought process and throws in whatever he might think of. Which can work out, but rarely does. And results in the kind of stupid moments that get people annoyed with him.

I can give him the benefit of the doubt most of the time, but I would be lying if I said I didn't get a little bit pissed when I sit through 44 minutes of what, in my mind, is a great story only for the entire emotional weight of the narrative to be sold short by a quick hand-waving before everyone continues happy as a clam.

Having the Doctor use his hindsight knowledge to alter history to escape his own death is good... but it needed to have more emotion to it. The entire episode he didn't seem to care too much. I don't want him emo, but they needed to sell the emotional weight of that story for him. They needed to set up more clues than they did for what he was going to do. And they need to make it happen slower, not just cram the revelation in at the last minute.

Thomas Parker said:
*cough* torchwood *cough*
Okay seriously, why do people hate Miracle Day so much? It wasn't as good as Children of Earth, but so what? Children of Earth was phenomenal, I never expected Miracle Day to top it. But I love Miracle Day.

And as far as my knowledge goes, Miracle Day was still written by the usual British talents. It just partially funded by and produced in America. I might be wrong though.

But I still don't get the hatred for that series. I loved it.
 

Axolotl

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joemegson94 said:
Why didn't Kovarian just send some of the hundreds and hundreds of soldiers she has at her disposal to go back and shoot the Doctor in the face, rather than spend decades brainwashing River?
Because the Cybermen, the Daleks, the Sontarans, the Master and countless other people already tried that plan. It never worked.
 

Sonic Doctor

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ReservoirAngel said:
Good, I can see we have amicable agreement on things.

The same goes for this:

ReservoirAngel said:
They needed to set up more clues than they did for what he was going to do. And they need to make it happen slower, not just cram the revelation in at the last minute.
Moffat maybe a good writer in certain respects, but I don't think he knows how to give subtle, but clear hints.

With Davies, the hints were there but they weren't the focus of each episode.

In series 1, Bad Wolf is in most every episode, but it is usually said randomly in passing or on on a view screen, then finally in the episode "Boom Town" before the two part finale, The Doctor finally brings us to the point if we haven figured it out already, he mentions how the word is following him around, but then he shrugs it off.

In series 2, we get all the little hits about Torchwood, so we end of figuring out that Torchwood will be a part of the finale.

In series 3, anytime we get to see present day Earth, we see Saxon posters, and in the Christmas special before the start of the series, we hear that Saxon gives approval to fire at will at the "Christmas Star". It get's people wondering who he is and that we will most likely find out in the finale.

In series 4, we in passing in different episodes we hear about missing planets, as well as instances where Rose silently appears on view screens. The adipose breading planet disappeared, the lost planet of those stone/fire creatures, and the lost moon of poosh.

But when we get Moffat in charge and comes series 5: We have the cracks and silence will fall. The cracks weren't hard to spot, because at the end of every episode the camera would fixate on them. And Silence will fall, as well as mentioning the Pandorica, weren't subtle, it was just out right said with The Doctor knowing something was up about it.

Series 6, in the first half we get the camera focusing in on every instance that eye-patch woman looks in on Amy. And during that and the rest of the series, practically at the end of every episode, The Doctor looks at his "death" date.

If there were any other hints, they were way too subtle, but I don't think there were. Moffat just waves the answer purposefully in our faces, not allowing us the fun the figure out things on our own.
 

Shakomaru

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I didn't think it was as good as other River episodes, but it was still great. I love how the marker tallys of silence sighting came back, but the episode just kinda seemed a little too predictable. I was surprised however that the eyepatches didn't turn you evil once you put them on..